Self-giving

[Chancellare]

I’m one of those silently suffering with over-dose of the never-ending threads about Masturbation and all the possible ways the word can be mis-spelled.

Our entire western culture is so fixated with self-gratification and pursuit of pleasure and happiness that we end up with a generation of psychotic cases arising from this obsession. Why, even our Declaration of Independence was based on one central motivation: “The pursuit of Happiness”. Although I have nothing against this pursuit, we all know that this has unwittingly created a disordered desire to pursue happiness and pleasure for its own sake. I even hazard one theory further: this is one of the root causes for our cultural tendency to embrace relativism and contraception mentality.

My question now is: Do you agree that self-giving is the missing virtue? Thoughts and possible methodologies are welcome.

 

[blessedtoo]

I’m one of those silently suffering with over-dose of the never-ending threads about Masturbation and all the possible ways the word can be mis-spelled.

Agreed! Especially regarding the mis-spelling! Perhaps because we have so many fabulous euphamisms for this activity, people have forgotten how the actual word for the deed is spelled!

Why, even our Declaration of Independence was based on one central motivation: “The pursuit of Happiness”.

I must admit I have always been uncomfortable with this word in our Declaration. And it’s usage in popular culture is absolutely mind-numbing. “Whatever makes you happy” is the new Commandment which we humans seem to determined to fulfill completely, no matter what the cost. I’ve always felt that describing oneself as a “happy” person is akin to a description of the village idiot’s disposition. It is a meaningless goal, in my opinion, because it is transient and usually dependent on externals. Now, if one wishes to speak of joy, peace, equanimity, then I can relate to that. I look at happiness as a pleasant side effect or consequence of those other, more important qualities. But definately not the goal.

 

[cynic]

The pursuit of misery, detachment, and self-obliteration? Aside from that, isn’t the desire to “get into heaven” instrinsically selfish also? ( or about self-preservation at least)

 

[Chancellare]

The pursuit of misery, detachment, and self-obliteration?

It depends what you mean by that.

Aside from that, isn’t the desire to “get into heaven” instrinsically selfish also? ( or about self-preservation at least)

“My soul is restless until it rests in the Lord”, said St Augustine. When one is lost in the wilderness and wants desperately to come home, there is nothing selfish about that. In fact, the more you bring home with you, the better.

I think there could be a cultural difference among people here. Some people might not recognize that heaven is their natural place to come home to. In that case, anybody wishing to go to go heaven is viewed with suspicion and might even sound preposterous.

 

[setter]

My question now is: Do you agree that self-giving is the missing virtue? Thoughts and possible methodologies are welcome.

Giving of one’s self is a virtue when it exacts and demands the cost of self-sacrifice, i.e., dying to self and giving out of one’s own needs.

 

[setter]

The pursuit of misery, detachment, and self-obliteration? Aside from that, isn’t the desire to “get into heaven” instrinsically selfish also? ( or about self-preservation at least)

Man is made for mission and journey and for attaining goals and being rewarded …this is intrinsic to human nature. For a reality check, from this day forward make it your mission and life goal to “get into heaven”, and see how “intrinsically selfish” such a desire and pursuit becomes. The nature of love, true love, as in the agape love of God, is other centered and self-emptying, in order to receive from the infinite Source, the Triune God, who is all and only love – read the NT gospel and books by John.

 

[blessedtoo]

For a reality check, from this day forward make it your mission and life goal to “get into heaven”, and see how “intrinsically selfish” such a desire and pursuit becomes.

What a great point! If we are truly striving to reach heaven, our time here on earth will be centered on sacrifice, giving, love and obedience.

 

[Chancellare]

I’ve always felt that describing oneself as a “happy” person is akin to a description of the village idiot’s disposition.

He he, I like this one.

It is a meaningless goal, in my opinion, because it is transient and usually dependent on externals. Now, if one wishes to speak of joy, peace, equanimity, then I can relate to that. I look at happiness as a pleasant side effect or consequence of those other, more important qualities. But definately not the goal.

From RCC catechism, this is clearly understood by those who embrace and look forward to it in the afterlife.
But for those who are enamored with the pleasures of this world, this definition might not be that attractive.

 

[cynic]

Man is made for mission and journey and for attaining goals and being rewarded …this is intrinsic to human nature. For a reality check, from this day forward make it your mission and life goal to “get into heaven”, and see how “intrinsically selfish” such a desire and pursuit becomes. The nature of love, true love, as in the agape love of God, is other centered and self-emptying, in order to receive from the infinite Source, the Triune God, who is all and only love – read the NT gospel and books by John.

but the goal is to avoid hell. It’s thinking, “ok to avoid eternal hell, I have to think in a selfless way, act in a selfless way, be unhappy while I’m here, so I will be happy in the next life”.

 

[setter]

but the goal is to avoid hell. It’s thinking, “ok to avoid eternal hell, I have to think in a selfless way, act in a selfless way, be unhappy while I’m here, so I will be happy in the next life”.

This is true when stated in the negative. This also is a very self-centered and imperfect way to receive the sanctifying grace needed gain entry into heaven as one’s final and eternal resting place. It should be more a familial and “coming home” sense about being rewarded with heaven.

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.” **1 John 4: 18 **

 

[chevalier]

Self-giving is a missing virtue. In fact, contribution is. Even an exchange can’t work if no one wants to make the first step. I think I sense the lack of self-giving everywhere, myself included.

 

[Jay2]

Why, even our Declaration of Independence was based on one central motivation: “The pursuit of Happiness”.

Uh, you forgot "Life, Liberty, AND the pursuit of…

Just a note… Mr. Jefferson chose the word “pursuit”…
pur·suit(pr-soot)
n.

1. The act or an instance of chasing or pursuing.
2. The act of striving: the pursuit of higher education.

No guarantees implied here.

The Declaration of Independence was written as a statement to combat tyranny & oppression. The object was to remove ONE mortal person’s “birthrite mentality” from dictating how the masses should behave, and move these decisions to a majority vote.

Any document penned by man all will have had analytical inflections applied that the authors could never anticipate. Courts, Legals & Forums will submit “fine print” clauses addendum to the basic text, and unfortunately become law due to lack of concern by the masses.

 

[chevalier]

I think the problem might be with the lawsuit culture. No accidents anymore. Someone has to be responsible for something. If there’s no way in the law as it is, then it can be stipulated in a contract anyway, so someone is always responsible. Then we have rights. And rights mean others have duties. So other people have duties because we have rights. And we can sue.

People can’t get over not getting something they want or like. And yes, I too have a problem with that, so I probably shouldn’t complain.

 

[Chancellare]

Uh, you forgot "Life, Liberty, AND the pursuit of…

Just a note… Mr. Jefferson chose the word “pursuit”…
pur·suit(pr-soot)
n.

1. The act or an instance of chasing or pursuing.
2. The act of striving: the pursuit of higher education.

No guarantees implied here.

The Declaration of Independence was written as a statement to combat tyranny & oppression. The object was to remove ONE mortal person’s “birthrite mentality” from dictating how the masses should behave, and move these decisions to a majority vote.

Any document penned by man all will have had analytical inflections applied that the authors could never anticipate. Courts, Legals & Forums will submit “fine print” clauses addendum to the basic text, and unfortunately become law due to lack of concern by the masses.

Although you are correct in clarifying the complete phraseology, the fact is, man’s comprehension is not bound by semantics. Even taking the same phrase objectively and grammatically, the positioning of the words at the end of the phrase connotes centrality or primacy over the other 2 other objectives of the struggle for freedom. This does not debunk the centrality of the ‘pursuit of happiness’ in the said document, no matter what Jefferson might have in mind when he penned that document.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

The pursuit of misery, detachment, and self-obliteration? Aside from that, isn’t the desire to “get into heaven” instrinsically selfish also? ( or about self-preservation at least)

No, we know that the alternative is pursuit of willingness as a practising Christian to pursue ‘self-giving’, support for others, and active love for the wretched of the earth who constitute 98% of the world’s population, believe it or not.

This Forum is devoted principally to sinning and apologetics. It rarely talks about what it means to be a Christian - in this life - following the path that Jesus took, and his example. His mission was not just to give us everlasting life, but to show us how, as Christians, we should bear our responsibilities for others.

For me that means that I have a lot to do in this life. And that I am not terribly bothered about the next: I think that is taken care of. I cannot know too much about it, so it is not worth spending too much time thinking on it.

That means that I agree with you that going to church etc in order to achieve life everlasting, in order to get into heaven, is intrinsically selfish. It’s all about ME. Unless it is balanced with responsibility for THEM, where is the Christianity?

Blessings

 

[Chancellare]

That means that I agree with you that going to church etc in order to achieve life everlasting, in order to get into heaven, is intrinsically selfish. It’s all about ME. Unless it is balanced with responsibility for THEM, where is the Christianity?

Blessings

Going to church does not necessarily bring you to heaven. CCC teaches us that faith and good works will lead one to salvation.

I have never really come across any teaching from Catholic or non-Catholic that says working for your salvation to go to heaven is selfish. Saint Paul even urges us to “work for salvation with trembling…”.
On the other hand, no one can go to heaven with sin in his heart.

So if going to heaven is selfish, no one can go to heaven! (looks like a circular reasoning?)

 

[Margita]

I’m one of those silently suffering with over-dose of the never-ending threads about Masturbation and all the possible ways the word can be mis-spelled.

Our entire western culture is so fixated with self-gratification and pursuit of pleasure and happiness that we end up with a generation of psychotic cases arising from this obsession.(…) My question now is: Do you agree that self-giving is the missing virtue? Thoughts and possible methodologies are welcome.

I will not comment on the Declaration of Independence because I am not from the US.
BUT, I will comment on self-love and selfishness as you interpret it here. Yes, I do agree that sin (not only masturbation, but every kind of sin) stems from selfishness and self-interest erroneously conceived. Sinners (that is, you and me and we all!) forget about the fact that it is not our best interest to sin - we best serve ourselves when we abstain from sin. Thus, sin is the result of an errouneous selfishness.

However, there is a type of “selfishness” which is right, just, and even prescribed by God. This is the basis of the commandment: “Love your neighbour as you love yourself!” You have to love yourself if you want to love others. Self-love is the basis of our existence and it is required by God. This is the kind of “selfishness” which is the motivator behind our desire to get to heaven. God created us in such a way that it is impossible for us not to be “selfish” - He has given us an incredibly strong motivator for pursuing the true happiness!

Through sin, we abuse this ingrained motivator, we distort it, wring it from its God-given role. We use our self-love for something that takes us away from our true goal. We convert virtuous self-love into wicked selfishness.

This is behind every kind of sin, not only masturbation.

As for being annoyed with posts on this particular sin: don’t be. We all have our own cross to carry. For some, this cross is the temptation, the incredibly strong temptation of the flesh, lust. For others, it is the temptation of gluttony, for others, sloth, and so on. Is the glutton, who eats up what he/she could give to others, less selfish than the one who masturbates? Is the person who does not pray for souls in Purgatory because he “has no time” less selfish? Is there a particular kind of selfishness pertaining to the sin of masturbation? No, there is not. Every sin is the result of selfishness, the evil distortion of the self-love which is planted in us by God.

Those who sin in masturbation are not any more selfish than those who sin in other ways. Let us pray for each other that we may conquer our particular temptations for selfishness, and regain the pure and sacred self-love which is instilled in us from above.

 

[Margita]

I should note that my concept of self-love is based on the writings of a Hungarian Franciscan, Father Balázs Barsi.

PS: And sorry for being so long… hm, perhaps I am proud…?? for me!

 

[dulcissima]

While there can be too much emphasis placed on the pursuit of pleasure, I think being open to receiving and enjoying pleasure is a real part of being a whole person. Even when your emphasis is on giving, it is still less than charitable to not receive with appreciation and genuine pleasure. In fact when someone is really trying to do something nice for you, the absolute nicest thing you can do is to really enjoy whatever that is, and not just try to outdo them in your reciprocity. I think when you receive a gift with genuine pleasure, when you give back, it is all the more a real gift.

If that makes any sense…I haven’t even had more than a couple of sips of coffee this morning.

 

[PennitentMan]

Self giving is a virtue…true and I agree.

But when do get to the point where you run yourself into the ground through giving?
When do become a worse spouse/parent because you just give and give and give?
When is it appropriate for a little “Me” time? Is it really that wrong to want a bit of pleasure in life?

It seems more and more that it’s frowned upon to seek a little pleasure…