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ecolopy
Guest
Where is the line between masochism and what the faith teaches is virtue?
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PhilotheaZ
Guest
The “line” is the virtue of prudence. We can, and should, make little sacrifices daily to unite ourselves with the sufferings of Christ. We should NOT do anything unusual, extraordinary or extreme without the permission of a wise spiritual director.
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cheddarsox
Guest
When you submit to the direction of a spiritual director, confessor in this area, even when you want to “do more”.
Otherwise, pride, guilt, or others issues can easily creep in and overtake any virtue or good of such practices.
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ecolopy
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mjdvike
Guest
The “line” as you call it is that masochism is in and of itself a love of pain and suffering for the unnatural love of pain and suffering. Fasting and other forms of self-denial are ways of uniting ourselves to Christ - who voluntarily denied himself - so that we might have life.
Sacrifices - such as fasting, abstinence - are to be done with the right purpose. Except for those that are directed by the Church, we are to abstain from extreme forms of sacrifices unless a qualified spiritual director has been consulted. Small sacrifices - not eating chocolate (which we love) - as an offering to the Lord is acceptable and proper.
Loving pain is NOT Christian. Loving the Lord and accepting pain He is permitting in our lives and which cannot be avoided (such as arthritis, etc) can be purifying if done in the right frame of mind and spirit.
By the way, masochism is a psychological aberration: it is not normal or natural. It requires medical treatment!
PEACE
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jmj603
Guest
Very good advice.
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ecolopy
Guest
Thanks for responding.
What you say makes a lot of sense to me, but I think it was a leading question, (now that I think more about it)
In the “50’s,” I was taught that love was total self-sacrifice and to lay down my life for my fellowman, in order to be more perfect (saintly) After years of depression, anxiety, AlAnon and therapy, I have an aversion to self sacrifice and suffering and fail to see why Christ would want anyone to join him in any kind of suffering. I can see that the motive for martyrdom was self agrandizement the way that I understood it. It is still normal for me to anguish over my grown children’s choices because I think I project my emotional pain on them. I guess the answer to my concern is to unite my anquish to the sufferings of Jesus.
What you say makes a lot of sense to me, but I think it was a leading question, (now that I think more about it)
In the “50’s,” I was taught that love was total self-sacrifice and to lay down my life for my fellowman, in order to be more perfect (saintly) After years of depression, anxiety, AlAnon and therapy, I have an aversion to self sacrifice and suffering and fail to see why Christ would want anyone to join him in any kind of suffering. I can see that the motive for martyrdom was self agrandizement the way that I understood it. It is still normal for me to anguish over my grown children’s choices because I think I project my emotional pain on them. I guess the answer to my concern is to unite my anquish to the sufferings of Jesus.
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ecolopy
Guest
I have watched lives of different saints on EWTN-recently “Teresa of the Andes”. I don’t understand kneeling on bleeding knees. It bothers me that canonized saints don’t take better care of themselves. I understand uniting suffering that can’t be helped, but I don’t understand wanting to suffer to be closer to Christ.
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jmj603
Guest
It starts with wanting to be closer to Christ more than anything else. This is where most of us stop. We want to be closer, but we are afraid of what that entails.
But if you really want to be closer to something or someone, the first thing you have to do is to find your target. And where is Christ? When you walk into a Church, where do you usually see Him?
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InLight247
Guest
I am with you on that. Just because some Saints did some self imposed suffering, it does not mean such behavior was infallible or exemplary. I once asked my spiritual director about my puzzlement of some saints welcoming sickness and seeking suffering. SD said back then people’s concept of medicine and medical technology were different from today, that could play a part on people’s mentality. He said we are all products of our time. I think my SD is right on.
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jmj603
Guest
People who criticize the example or teaching of the saints have a lot of chutzpah, and are automatically suspect for heresy. There was a notorious woman in my area who was a well-known dissenter who offered popular spiritual direction. Do you have evidence for the orthodoxy of your spiritual director?
The encyclical Salvifici Doloris would be a good read for both of you.
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Biblioassistant
Guest
I accept suffering that God sees fit to send me, but I don’t seek it out. To give an example - if I’m plagued with insomnia for a few nights I just offer it up to God and maybe use the time to say some prayers. I do not fill my bed with rocks and broken glass a la St. Rose of Lima.
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InLight247
Guest
That is my point of view also.
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mercygate
Guest
The extraordinary mortifications are not for everybody. Clearly, they are not for you.Thanks for responding.
What you say makes a lot of sense to me, but I think it was a leading question, (now that I think more about it)
In the “50’s,” I was taught that love was total self-sacrifice and to lay down my life for my fellowman, in order to be more perfect (saintly) After years of depression, anxiety, AlAnon and therapy, I have an aversion to self sacrifice and suffering and fail to see why Christ would want anyone to join him in any kind of suffering. I can see that the motive for martyrdom was self agrandizement the way that I understood it. It is still normal for me to anguish over my grown children’s choices because I think I project my emotional pain on them. I guess the answer to my concern is to unite my anquish to the sufferings of Jesus.
As earlier posters have noted: NEVER should they be undertaken without the guidance of a spiritual director.
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mercygate
Guest
Wanting to suffer to be closer to Christ comes in two places: Immature faith (as an imagined kick-starter to spirituality) and in profound and mature faith, when people recognize that Christ and the Cross cannot be separated. To love Christ is to love HIS suffering and to desire participation in it.
John of the Cross speaks eloquently of this desire for Christ’s suffering, which is not the pain of personal ascetical practices):
The gate that gives entry into these riches of his wisdom is the cross; because it is a narrow gate, while many seek the joys that can be gained through it, it is given to few to desire to pass through it. (*from A Spiritual Canticle by St. John of the cross (Red. B, str. 36-37) *
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Sr_Sally
Guest
We do need to consider the times they lived in also. People then suffered harsh and public punishments for their sins. So if I see a thief being whipped say, and I think that I am as much of a sinner because I “stole” time from my duties to daydream, then it makes sense for me to punish myself for that sin in a similar way. It is a very different mindset than what we are used to. Both because of the distance of time and because on the whole our consciences are not as polished as theirs, we don’t reflect on our sins as they did on theirs. Partly why they are Saints and we are not. But if you look at the lives of Saints who lived more recently, you will see much less of that self-punishment. Perhaps they slept on the floor, or allowed themselves very little sleep, but 19th and 20th century Saints were very likely not filling their beds with rocks.
Any punishment of that type must be undertaken only under the direction of a spiritual advisor. Mentally punishing yourself through anguish or desparing thoughts should also be brought to your confessor or advisor. You should also seek out medical treatment if necessary.
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cheddarsox
Guest
Here is another aspect of this to consider, sometimes, the whole “seeking suffering”, is a mask for self interest.
We can impose suffering on ourselves, suffering of a type and intensity that we choose. Many times, if we examine our souls closely, we will discover that this is an effort to “beat God to the punch.”
What I mean is that we choose a cross, that even though painful, we know we can endure. Thus, with us suffering so much for the cause,we expect that surely God won’t give us another suffering (not of our choice).
Sometimes the greatest discipline of all is to endure what comes to us with charity and grace, those things that we do not choose. To put self and pride aside, and let the Divine provide the challenges that are best suited to us and our spiritual growth.
Do we trust the Divine knows what is best for us? Or do we feel the need to do more than is asked?
Most of our lives are full of opportunities to suffer, give, share, grow, sacrafice for others, yet we often ignore those to choose something that is “showier”, even if only to ourselves.
Practice some honest awareness and humility, and then see if you still feel the need to “take on more”.
We can impose suffering on ourselves, suffering of a type and intensity that we choose. Many times, if we examine our souls closely, we will discover that this is an effort to “beat God to the punch.”
What I mean is that we choose a cross, that even though painful, we know we can endure. Thus, with us suffering so much for the cause,we expect that surely God won’t give us another suffering (not of our choice).
Sometimes the greatest discipline of all is to endure what comes to us with charity and grace, those things that we do not choose. To put self and pride aside, and let the Divine provide the challenges that are best suited to us and our spiritual growth.
Do we trust the Divine knows what is best for us? Or do we feel the need to do more than is asked?
Most of our lives are full of opportunities to suffer, give, share, grow, sacrafice for others, yet we often ignore those to choose something that is “showier”, even if only to ourselves.
Practice some honest awareness and humility, and then see if you still feel the need to “take on more”.
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mercygate
Guest
[sign]PREACH it, Sister![/sign]
True, true. But sometimes this argument is raised as if to say that all extraordinary mortifications are suspect.
This is why the admonition of spiritual direction is non-negotiable. Motivatoin is everything. Fasting stands on its own because Jesus says “WHEN you fast” – the assumption is that fasting is part of the general routine. But the other things: sleeping on the floor, taking the discipline, using the little chain ‘bracelets’ or wearing a hairshirt can be done as a way of “praying with the flesh” – reminding ourselves of some particular aspect of Christ’s suffering so as to clinch it in our hearts and minds, to be united with it, even if in an almost ‘trivial’ way.
Nevertheless, it cannot be said too many times that if you are doing this without spiritual direction, you are flirting with danger. I am inclined to believe that in a healthy mind, the danger is sliglht, but I’ve been around long enough to know that a LOT of people who are attracted to this stuff are (ahem) NUTS! (That would be my professional diagnosis, of course.) Therefore, IMHO, nobody should be exempt from the guidance of a spiritual director in this.
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ecolopy
Guest
My experience with spiritual directors is that they have been very nurturing, affirming and encouraging that I am doing well. Generally, I am instructed to relax, not be so hard on myself, etc. It is my anxiety over others’ reaction to me and my “scouring my soul” that causes my suffering. Does that make me NUTS? It is true that I feel guilty if I have been peaceful for very long and I do scan my environment to see if I have done all that I think I should do. Thank God I have a good sense of humor so I can get off of my own case sometimes. Maybe watching lives of the saints is too much for me. They say…“compare and despair”, I notice that there is usually one person in the story who is jealous of the saint. I fear that is me and that I am ambitious to make God happen for me, when it is all in His hands and His choice. When I was a young child I wished God had chosen me to be the Blessed Mother. It was like the part in the Christmas play. Now, I realize how Mary was graced in ways that I am not and I am more content with being human. Maybe I feel sorry for myself because I am who I am - a sinner.
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cheddarsox
Guest
I understand. Growing up, I wished for mortification, and if it didn’t come in the form I thought most appropriate (usually whatever saint or holy person I was reading at the time), I sometimes sought to bring it upon myself.
While, is many ways this came from a sincere desire to be closer to God, like those fine examples I read about, it also came from a childish understanding of suffering, and a very human pride.
I appreciate the need for a good spiritual director now, to keep us from “getting ahead of God” or even blinding ourselves to the work He is doing in our lives, because we are so busy doing the work ourselves.
I so dearly wanted the stigmata…oh my!
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