Self-Interpreting Scripture Exercise

[Teflon93]

John 6:

53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[Teflon93]

Leviticus 26:

29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.

Deuteronomy 28:

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you.

Psalm 50

13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?

Isaiah 9:

20 On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied. Each will feed on the flesh of his own offspring

Isaiah 49:

26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

Isaiah 66:

17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,” declares the LORD.

Jeremiah 19:

9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’

Ezekial 39:

17 "Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood.

18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan.

Daniel 7:

5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

Micah 3:

3 who eat my people’s flesh, strip off their skin and break their bones in pieces; who chop them up like meat for the pan, like flesh for the pot?"

Zechariah 11:

9 and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

Revelation 17:

16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 19:

18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

 

[sandusky]

**Genesis 15:5-6

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:20-22

20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.

Galatians 3:6

6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 2:23

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.**Pretty simple. :extrahappy:

 

[Teflon93]

Genesis 15:5-6

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:20-22

20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.

Galatians 3:6

6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 2:23

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.Pretty simple. :extrahappy:

Not quite so simple as that. As I have done, you must tie these to John 6:53. That is the passage we’re explaining through Scripture alone. That is the challenge.

And thank you for being willing to take the challenge on.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

Not quite so simple as that.

Yea; it’s real tough. Romans 10:9-10

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 4:24

24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

John 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Steadily working to Jn 6—very simple! :extrahappy:

'nuff for now— :yawn:

 

[TDiGaetano]

Genesis 15:5-6

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:20-22

20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.

Galatians 3:6

6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 2:23

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.Pretty simple. :extrahappy:

I feel that these passages are being taken out of context I could be wrong, but I have noticed a lot of mistranslations of the bible from the original writings and the beliefs of the church Catholic and protestant when the bible is translated to English. I feel that this is just because there is a loss of spirit when converting these texts to English. Ex. Luke 1:28-29

To the Catholics this is a key moment in declaring Mary as the Mother of God. In our Catholic Prayer we Say Hail! Mary, Full of Grace since this was the quotation from the bible Luke 1:28. In the English translations I use the

New American Bible I got back in grade school.

Luke 1:28
And Comming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

… favored one what happened to Full of Grace??

In the Protestant Bibles using www.Bible.com

New International Version (NIV)

Passage Luke 1:28:
28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Hail which is used to offer greetings to Royalty gets reduced to a Hello. Full of Grace gets reduced to Highly favored.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Passage Luke 1:28:

28And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”

Well this was certainly close but still has highly favored

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Luke 1:28:

28And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Again reduced the call to Mary as a simple hello.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)

Passage Luke 1:28:
28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Here we go the passage I grew up knowing and believing. This was translated in 1899. What power in hell missed with our translations over 100 years???

We can see around us over the last 100 years there has been great evil at work. It was only a matter of time before the evil was able to corrupt scripture through translation and confuse those that are not part of the true church and rely directly on scripture to detail their salvation.

Ok now what I have quoted above this is a big problem with the writings in the old and new testimant the misuse of Pronouns.

I’ll just use the following passage to explain my point since it is simular to the other points:
James 2:23

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God

This passage is being interrpreted as:

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham] was reckoned to him[God] as righteousness,” and he[Abraham] was called the friend of God

What this actually says is

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it[God] was reckoned to him[Abraham] as righteousness,” and he[Abraham] was called the friend of God

Yes scripture is very valuable but don’t let the actions of the evil one corrupt your views. This is the reason for the christ established church to provide the true translation of the pronouns used. In these passages Abraham Acknowleged God as being Rightous and this act of acknowlegeing that God is Rightous(without sin, Just, Holy, ect) Will make you a Friend of God. FAITH is the first step one must take to live with the Lord but Faith is not the only step one must take to follow the Lord.

 

[Teflon93]

Matthew 19:

16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Matthew 25:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 "The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 4:

14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

36 Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.

 

[Teflon93]

John 5:

24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

John 12:

I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

John 17:

2 "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Acts 13:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 2:

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Romans 5:

21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 6:

8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1 Timothy 1:

16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:

12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Titus 1:

2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

1 John 3:

15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 John 5:

20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Pwrlftr]

T93, the statement of the OP said nothing about Catholic teaching; correct?

So you are engaging in a bait-and-switch, game; which is, IMO, a typical MO for you.

You caught this too?

Teflon says in his original post

Teflon:

If sola scriptura is valid, we should all arrive at the same understanding without dissent, and the meaning of the original passage should be clear.

None of the creedal statements on SS make such a claim nor does the WCF, which is what he is supposedly basing this thread on. He keeps twisting it to make it say far more than it actually does.

If this is typical for him, why do the forum moderators allow him to post here?

 

[Teflon93]

I feel that these passages are being taken out of context I could be wrong, but I have noticed a lot of mistranslations of the bible from the original writings and the beliefs of the church Catholic and protestant when the bible is translated to English. I feel that this is just because there is a loss of spirit when converting these texts to English. Ex. Luke 1:28-29

To the Catholics this is a key moment in declaring Mary as the Mother of God. In our Catholic Prayer we Say Hail! Mary, Full of Grace since this was the quotation from the bible Luke 1:28. In the English translations I use the

New American Bible I got back in grade school.

Luke 1:28
And Comming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

… favored one what happened to Full of Grace??

In the Protestant Bibles using www.Bible.com

New International Version (NIV)

Passage Luke 1:28:
28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Hail which is used to offer greetings to Royalty gets reduced to a Hello. Full of Grace gets reduced to Highly favored.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Passage Luke 1:28:

28And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”

Well this was certainly close but still has highly favored

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Luke 1:28:

28And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Again reduced the call to Mary as a simple hello.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)

Passage Luke 1:28:
28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Here we go the passage I grew up knowing and believing. This was translated in 1899. What power in hell missed with our translations over 100 years???

We can see around us over the last 100 years there has been great evil at work. It was only a matter of time before the evil was able to corrupt scripture through translation and confuse those that are not part of the true church and rely directly on scripture to detail their salvation.

Ok now what I have quoted above this is a big problem with the writings in the old and new testimant the misuse of Pronouns.

I’ll just use the following passage to explain my point since it is simular to the other points:
James 2:23

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God

This passage is being interrpreted as:

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham] was reckoned to him[God] as righteousness,” and he[Abraham] was called the friend of God

What this actually says is

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it[God] was reckoned to him[Abraham] as righteousness,” and he[Abraham] was called the friend of God

Yes scripture is very valuable but don’t let the actions of the evil one corrupt your views. This is the reason for the christ established church to provide the true translation of the pronouns used. In these passages Abraham Acknowleged God as being Rightous and this act of acknowlegeing that God is Rightous(without sin, Just, Holy, ect) Will make you a Friend of God. FAITH is the first step one must take to live with the Lord but Faith is not the only step one must take to follow the Lord.

You are correct, of course, and the more recent the translation, the more translators have given into the temptation to distort Scripture to suit doctrinal needs.

The answer seems simple to me:

For this exercise, pick a translation which is THE OPPOSITE OF your favored translation.

As a result, I’m using the New International Version. No one may then accuse me of attempting the exercise based on a Catholic translation, right?

I challenge others to do the same, and recommend Protestants employ the Revised Standard Version or the New American Bible, since they seem to have a marked aversion to the D-R.

 

[Teflon93]

You caught this too?

Teflon says in his original post

None of the creedal statements on SS make such a claim nor does the WCF, which is what he is supposedly basing this thread on. He keeps twisting it to make it say far more than it actually does.

If this is typical for him, why do the forum moderators allow him to post here?

Keep flowing with the uncharitable insinuations, fellas, in violation of Forum rules, and you’ll be posting elsewhere.

I’ve quoted the WCF; it says what it says. Moreover, I can find plenty of Protestant clergy claiming Scripture interprets itself all the way back to the Reformation. Shouldn’t have to; it’s a well-known saying which wasn’t invented by any Catholic.

Since your tactic seems to be trying to derail the thread, Pwrfltr please go elsewhere. There are many other threads for you to opine on. Or start a new thread about the WCF. Couldn’t care less.

Craig, please feel free to continue your response to this challenge. You have only to link your passages to John 6:53. I’ve demonstrated one way to do this in my responses. As you’ve seen, I’ve used only Scripture, and haven’t added a bit of interpretation, not one word. I’ve availed myself of font color merely to establish linkages in an easy-to-follow manner.

 

[dbacks5439]

Instead of pursuing the task at hand, Sandusky and others have directed their attention to sola fide, instead of sola scriptura. In doing so, they are showing us Catholics that protestants have no basis for their sola scriptura claim. Unless I am mistaken and they are attempting to link the two, I don’t know since they have not shown me their procedure. On the same token, the Greek word for believe is actually more in tune with obedience. Those who obey Christ Jesus will be saved, not simply having knowledge of Him.
Along the same lines as sola scriptura, the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. A simple glance at history will show that the Church is what put the canon of the Bible together and the Bible points to the Church for Truth. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition predates the Catholic Church. The Jewish faith employed both methods of God's revelation. The Torah and the intepretation of the Law by Rabbis is what constitutes the Jewish faith. If the Bible is all that is needed, why did Jesus send us the Paraclete to guide us to all Truth, if the Bible supposedly guides us to all Truth?

 

[Teflon93]

It may be found here.

Anyone not participating in the exercise for this thread now has a ready-made thread to discuss that off-topic issue. There is no longer any excuse to derail this thread with that issue.

We can therefore return to the business of trying to see whether the very notion that “Scripture interprets itself” is practical or not.

 

[TDiGaetano]

Back on Topic (havn’t choosen a version if one translation be corrupt they all could be since I don’t have the knowledge of multiple languages reading the original scriptures is out of the question.)

Is Jesus talking about his body and blood as actual or symbolic?

As Catholics we believe it to be actual, but why?

During mass the priest does the prayer of concecration over the bread and wine. Some times we do not hear or understand what is being said during the concencration.

“Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek. Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your alter in heaven. Then, as we recieve from this alter the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.”

We offer up bread and wine to God. So that he will take it and give us the promised body and blood of his son, Jesus.

In John Chapter 6 we see Jesus saying that he isn’t only Man but that he is God. The Flesh and blood we recieve during communion is Jesus’s presence given to us by God. God could choose to reject our offering of Bread and Wine, but that is why we ask him to remember his other faithful that have offered him Sacrifices in a simular way.

Jesus during the Last supper tells the apostles to perform the ceremony, he just performed for them, so that everyone will always remember the Dieing and Ressurection of our Lord.

To be Continued…

 

[TDiGaetano]

Continued…

The best defence for The actual body and blood of christ is found in the NIV

1 Corinthians 11:17-34

**The Lord’s Supper **

• 17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.*

In these passages we see that there are people in the church who do not fully believe in the Eucharist. This is causeing seperation in the church.

*20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! *

We are not suppose to view this gathering as a group to share in bread and grape juice.

*23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. *

He passed on to them what the Lord has said in reguards of the Body and Blood to be a remembrance of our Lord. For in communion we share and remember our Lords sacerfice for us.

• 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. *

If this was just bread and juice how could we eat it in an unworthy manner? I guess if your rude about it… but verse 29 FOR ANYONE WHO EATS AND DRINKS WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THE BODY OF THE LORD EATS AND DRINKS JUDGMENT ON HIMSELF… This is saying if we do not recognize that the Eucharist as the Body of the Lord we are condeming ourselves to Judgement.

*31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. *

Since God is our Judge we can not judge people for their sinful actions only try to educate them and pray that they may understand.
*
33So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
And when I come I will give further directions.*

Here Paul is reconfirming that we do not eat the Eucharist as if it were food to ward off hunger but that as the Body and Blood of Christ as not to bring God’s Judgment down on us.

And in Conclusion he says “And when I come I will give further directions” (reguarding the Lords Supper) So the details and prayers of concecration even tho not directly writen in the bible have biblical backing.

 

[Teflon93]

TDG-

Great analysis and I certainly agree with much if not all of it, but the challenge of this thread is to explain John 6:53 ONLY through Scripture, without so much as one word of interpretation involved.

In that light, and despite a wonderful analysis on your part, I have to note in fairness that it does not meet the challenge.

Might be time for another John 6:53 thread though, if you’d care to start one.

Would you be willing to take your analysis, boil it down to only Scripture passages in sequence, and see if you could essentially make the case without one word added to Scripture?

That would allow us to see if we could reach the same conclusion you did simply by looking at related Scripture passages.

It’s a hard challenge, to be sure, but since WCF indicates that both “learned and unlearned” should be able to interpret obscure Scripture regarding salvation by “ordinary means”, it shouldn’t be that hard, right?

 

[TDiGaetano]

TDG-

Great analysis and I certainly agree with much if not all of it, but the challenge of this thread is to explain John 6:53 ONLY through Scripture, without so much as one word of interpretation involved.

In that light, and despite a wonderful analysis on your part, I have to note in fairness that it does not meet the challenge.

Might be time for another John 6:53 thread though, if you’d care to start one.

Would you be willing to take your analysis, boil it down to only Scripture passages in sequence, and see if you could essentially make the case without one word added to Scripture?

That would allow us to see if we could reach the same conclusion you did simply by looking at related Scripture passages.

It’s a hard challenge, to be sure, but since WCF indicates that both “learned and unlearned” should be able to interpret obscure Scripture regarding salvation by “ordinary means”, it shouldn’t be that hard, right?

ok up to you guys then

1 Cor 11:27-30

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Unless you wanted me to find scripture that contradicted the catholic faith?? Don’t think that exists… someone else can look for that.

 

[Teflon93]

ok up to you guys then

1 Cor 11:27-30

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Unless you wanted me to find scripture that contradicted the catholic faith?? Don’t think that exists… someone else can look for that.

LOL—they’ll look in vain for that one.

The 1 Corinthians passage is right on topic.

 

[SD_Catholic]

PC Master
Senior Member
Let’s start with a premise. Jesus was known for using parables and analogies. I think this premise can be easily supported by many scriptural passages. He used analogies and parables to illustrate truths.

For instance, “he that hears my teachings and does them** is like a wise man** who builds his house on a rock”.

I don’t think anyone pointed out an important part of your response. It says he," is** like** a wise man who builds his house on a rock". I must have missed the verse where Jesus said, “this bread is** like** my body and this wine is** like** my blood.” If I did could you please direct me towards it, otherwise I’m going to have to assume he meant it really was his body and blood, I mean that’s what it says in Scripture so many times right.

 

[PC_Master]

Teflon, my brother in Christ:

I have to say that I am wounded. I take exception to your desire not to address the points raised against your initial claim. You seem intent on twisting the WCF and SS both to say something they do not say. It seems almost as though you’re looking for a straw man, and not truthful and open discussion with your Christian brothers and sisters.

I truly can understand the anger you seem to be experiencing, as well as the feeling of needing to “one-up” those you’re communicating with. I’ve been there many times. I also feel that I may have, unfortunately, allowed my zeal for learning the truth to get in the way of our discourse, and as such that I may have offended you in a way not fitting for a Christian brother.

We seem to have gotten to the point where we each suspect the other of not valuing the truth, and because of this, we’ve closed our minds to what the other person has to say. Your posting has now become such that it appears to be what others have termed “bait and switch tactics”. Such appearances, whether accurate of your intent or not, only serve to harm the discourse between us.

So, let’s put down the anger and our mutual certainty that the other person isn’t here to hear the truth, and let’s all try to consider the position of the other, okay?

I truly forgive you for the misconduct on your part, and though I expect nothing in return, I do sincerely hope you’ll choose to do the same, instead of bearing arms against a Christian brother. I also hope you’ll do the same for the others who have posted in this thread.

I propose that we drop this topic, as it is based on an improper understanding of Protestant beliefs, and as such can’t accomplish anything positive. I suggest that we then start a new conversation, where we start from the ground up, allowing Protestants to explain the general mindset of how scripture falls into our beliefs as an authoritative source, and how the Holy Spirit interacts with that and with us. What say you?

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)

Passage Luke 1:28:
28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Here we go the passage I grew up knowing and believing. This was translated in 1899. What power in hell missed with our translations over 100 years???

Actually, several older translations, including the KJV, translate it as “highly favored”. Some also translate it as having been given “special grace”. The DRB seems to be in a vast minority translating this as “full of grace”. Unfortunately, in this instance, we can’t do much in the way of word study, because the underlying Greek word appears in only one other place in scripture (Ephesians 1:6), which essentially speaks of this status of “highly favored-ness” or “special grace” as applying to all of the followers of Christ.

Please consider that the DRB, though it is what you were raised with, may not be a very accurate translation.

What this actually says is

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it[God] was reckoned to him[Abraham] as righteousness,” and he[Abraham] was called the friend of God

Actually, it, which could also be translated as this (if it helps to know that), represents the belief in God, not God himself.