Self-Interpreting Scripture Exercise

[minkymurph]

The Holy Spirit is a guide which is there for us if we will accept his guidance. The problem is that we often don’t.

would anyone who has read both John 3 and John 6 (entire chapters please) care to share what their understanding is from those scriptures? Primarily, I’d like to see if there’s any honest seeker who comes out with a different answer, and secondarily, I’d like to get this little bait and switch game over with.

I think I’ve lost the thread of the thread as I’m no really sure what it’s really about or what conclusions we are expected to draw. If the Holy Spirit is the guiding light when it comes to scripture, and not all interpretations spring from scripture, we are left with the dilemha of which interpretation is of divine origin. I could write a book on my understanding of John 3 and John 6 which is not possible for me to do here and as I am Catholic, I would guess that everyone here knows how I would interpret them and would either agree or disagree. Interpreting these passages, (or any other for that matter) the reader needs the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit to understand it’s true meaning. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of scripture and it is not self-interpreting. It is only interpretations which are born of the Spirit which are divine truths and as I have said, we are faced with the dilemha of what teachings are from the Spirit and which are not. That I would say is revealed only by God himself and yes, the person reading scripture must be open to what God is revealing.

 

[PC_Master]

The Holy Spirit is a guide which is there for us if we will accept his guidance. The problem is that we often don’t.

would anyone who has read both John 3 and John 6 (entire chapters please) care to share what their understanding is from those scriptures? Primarily, I’d like to see if there’s any honest seeker who comes out with a different answer, and secondarily, I’d like to get this little bait and switch game over with.

I think I’ve lost the thread of the thread as I’m no really sure what it’s really about or what conclusions we are expected to draw. If the Holy Spirit is the guiding light when it comes to scripture, and not all interpretations spring from scripture, we are left with the dilemha of which interpretation is of divine origin. I could write a book on my understanding of John 3 and John 6 which is not possible for me to do here and as I am Catholic, I would guess that everyone here knows how I would interpret them and would either agree or disagree. Interpreting these passages, (or any other for that matter) the reader needs the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit to understand it’s true meaning. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of scripture and it is not self-interpreting. It is only interpretations which are born of the Spirit which are divine truths and as I have said, we are faced with the dilemha of what teachings are from the Spirit and which are not. That I would say is revealed only by God himself and yes, the person reading scripture must be open to what God is revealing.
If only God can reveal the truth to each reader, then how can the RCC make any official determination of which interpretation is correct?

Regardless, I’d be interested if you’d answer this for me – What must I do to be saved?

 

[SD_Catholic]

PC Master
Regardless, I’d be interested if you’d answer this for me – What must I do to be saved?

Can I try… There are many but I’ll give you one… 1 John 4:20. Seems just loving God doesn’t getter’ done.

 

[Teflon93]

Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
(John 6:53 DRB)

For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
(John 6:55 DRB)

Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work.
(John 4:34 DRB)

Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.
(John 6:29 DRB)

And this is** the will of my Father** that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
(John 6:40 DRB)

This meets the challenge, SyCarl—you have quoted only Scripture, and you have done so in a way which clearly links it to the passage of John 6:53, so that anyone can see the linkage.

Nicely done.

 

[Teflon93]

So for those who don’t get it, then what does that say about the Holy Spirit?

EXACTLY.

Pwrfltr and PCM play semantic games with the WCF passage.

“May attain unto a sufficient understanding” means what one thinks it would mean—that the whole point of revelation in Scripture regarding salvation IS INTENDED TO BE UNDERSTOOD.

They also ignore a key aspect of this — it is intended to be understood by “learned and unlearned” alike.

And, of course, they ignore (if they even know it) the historical context of this document and the historical importance the idea of Scripture interpreting Scripture had upon the Reformation.

For if the WCF doesn’t mean, “If the Scripture passage regarding salvation is obscure, one need only seek another, clearer passage from Scripture, as the Holy Spirit intends this to be understood”, then it doesn’t mean anything of all—it has no value whatsoever as theology.

For all the things Calvin and his followers were, they were not “Bible code” people.

 

[Teflon93]

I may have missed it in the posts but has anyone commented on the need for guidance from the Holy Spirit in interpreting scripture? I would have to say that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, any interpretation of scripture is subject to human falliblility. Anything which is subject to human fallibility cannot be considered absolute truth and it is only absolute truth we are compelled to believe. Scripture only interprets itself if the reader is being guided by the Holy Spirit and is open to the leanings of the Holy Spirit. If that was not the case, then the Holy Spirit is not needed to interpret scripture and humans can do it for themselves simply by reading the Bible and need no help.

Guidance by the Holy Spirit is not considered “ordinary means” in the context of the WCF, but extraordinary means.

And yes, I’ve responded to this above in the same fashion already.

 

[minkymurph]

If only God can reveal the truth to each reader, then how can the RCC make any official determination of which interpretation is correct?

Regardless, I’d be interested if you’d answer this for me – What must I do to be saved?

Where do I start in order to answer you? I’m quite sure I’m going to be jumped on from all angles for my answer, but as you’ve asked me, I feel obliged to answer. Firstly, St Paul states that we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. All who desire to know the truth of God must search for it. They must follow the direction that they believe in their heart the Holy Spirit is leading them. The Holy Spirit I believe guides to all truth, but sometimes we make a few mistakes along the way. I believe this happens in order for us to discover what is truth, and also what is not. Mistakes are part of discovering truth. Only God can reveal truth yes, and However, sometimes God asks things of us that we don’t like the sound of, which is demonstrated in the scripture you quote, when Jesus said you eat my flesh and drink my blood. I’m not sure that the Catholic Church has actually defined an infallible interpretation of the entire Bible, stand to be corrected. What the Church has done, is to identify and explain core beliefs which are infallible, in other words, absolute truth. Not even the Catholic Church professes to know absolute truth in it’s entirity, it would mean understanding God in his infinicy and knowing the very mind of God. It is God who choose who that truth will be revealed to, which is those who ask with a sincere heart out of love. The ability to know and state absolute truth is something which can only be given by God and God does not bestow this ability on everyone. I say that as due to the fact there is so much disagreement in relation to core beliefs of Christianity, the ability to know and state absolute truth cannot be bestowed on everyone or we would all say the same thing. Why does God not bestow this ability on everyone? That question can only be answered by God himself, I wouldn’t like to hazzard a guess, but I would be pretty sure it’s not a gift he has bestowed on me personally and therefore, my own interpretations of scripture are subject to human falliblity. Who has God bestowed this ability on? That’s something each individual has to work out for themselves. What must I do to gain salvation? To me, the Bible does not teach that one thing leads to salvation. To me, the Bible does not teach that believing Christ is the Messiah alone leads to salvation. He said many will say onto him ‘Lord, Lord’ yet he will say he does not know them. That scripture goes on to say, I was naked you did not cloth me, I was hungry you did not feed me …’ The Bible talks of those who have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. Jesus parable of the seed that falls on different kinds of soil and as a result doesn’t grow, I would say is not talking neccessarily about different people. As individuals, we can be different types of soil at different times of our lives. Jesus said, in order to be enter heaven, one had to be ‘born again of water and spirit.’ Being born again means many things to different people. James said goods works alone do not earn us salvation, however he also said faith without works is dead. Above all things of course is love. As St Paul said, if we have all things but do not have love, we are making the sound of a crashing cymbal. I could say a lot more on the subject but to finish, salvation is not something we can earn, it is God’s gift. Our journey towards salvation involves a combination of the things I have mentioned above. Faith, hope, charity, baptism by water and spirit, works, knowledge and above all things love. Perfecting these attributes which can only be accomplished by God’s power and our willingness to receive, lead to the fulfillment of faith. By following this path, we are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Lampo]

Lampo, there is a simple answer here. Many claim to be receiving the guidance of the Holy Spirit – that doesn’t mean they actually are.

How does one know? Is that the way God set it up?

Thus, it doesn’t disprove SS (though I don’t hold to SS myself).

Yes it does. It disproves the SS group that claims Scripture is self-interpreting.

Do you think any person alive listens 100% to the Holy Spirit? I’ve never met anyone who honestly said that they did.

Yes. The Pope when speaking ex-cathedra on matters of faith and morals. I’ve never met the Pope either. Would love to have dinner with B-16 though!

Do you agree with all other Roman Catholics on 100% of things?

No I do not. Guiliani is a good example here with his stance on the life issues. BUT, that is not the same as agreeing with the Catholic Church on 100% of things (pertaining to faith and morals), which I do. The Catholics that do not are called “cafeteria Catholics.” The Catholic Church cannot and does not have conflicting doctrines.

Do you agree with any other Roman Catholic on 100% of things? Obviously not!

Yes I do. I agree 100% with Pope Benedict XVI pertaining to faith and morals.

The Holy Spirit is a guide which is there for us if we will accept his guidance. The problem is that we often don’t.

Can you tell me without a doubt who uses the Holy Spirit as a guide? Are the ones that agree with YOUR theology the ones that are guided by the Holy Spirit? Are YOU the one who makes the determination who is guided by the Holy Spirit? If not, who is?

 

[Teflon93]

It is quite funny to see PCM and Pwrfltr, who’ve done nothing but attempt to derail this thread (indeed, PCM hilariously begs us to shut it down above), now claim “they’ve lost the thread” of it.

Really?

Meanwhile, SyCarl has delivered a valid response.

We have now 2 Catholic and 1 Protestant responses for comparison.

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, we should soon be able to compare and see for ourselves if we come to the same views regarding what the passage means.

Again, the point is to see if the interpretations match. We will each be able to review the evidence. Let’s see if we draw the same conclusions as to what John 6:53 means, BASED SOLELY on the evidence of the Scripture provided.

Sometime today, I’ll compile the evidence into one post for ease of evaluation.

I will provide a short, one-sentence list of common interpretations of John 6:53 and ask the very patient readers of the thread for their additions to this list.

I will then ask our readers to evaluate the Scripture evidence provided and pick the one interpretation they believe the evidence supports.

Since the purpose of this exercise is NOT to argue what John 6:53 means, but merely to evaluate whether Scripture interpreting Scripture is practical, I would encourage all to allow no extraneous tradition or interpretation into the mix—we go by the provided Scripture passages alone.

Moreover, ALL Scripture passages in the summary post must be considered. Passages may not be excluded; the interpretation one selects must adequately explain ALL of them to your mind.

Obviously, this is something of an honor system. But then again, life is an honor system.

Craig, you had an earlier attempt which would have been valid if only you had clearly tied it to John 6:53 as SyCarl has. If you would like, please submit it, Scripture alone, with the tie to John 6:53 clearly indicated as SyCarl has done. I will then include it in the mix.

In order to make this less onerous on the reviewer, I will take my several LONG lists of Scripture and whittle them down. I do this so as not to muddy the waters for the evaluation, and because SyCarl’s list and our other valid Catholic entry is shorter. This should make the test somewhat easier, since ALL evidence provided in the summary post MUST be considered.

And we’ll see where we go from there.