Self mortification... what do you think?

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InLight247 said:
Good sense of humor! I could not help laugh when I first read this, and I am still laughing now! :rotfl:

Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, I don’t think we should mortify the temple on purpose. 🙂

I believe a better form of mortification is to pick up our cross, dying to self and live in Christ. Every time we overcome a weakness, a flaw, or a sin, every time we die to our old self, striving for holiness, it is a kind of mortification.

People’s concept from centuries ago are obiously different from today. And the old concept of mortification has to be modified, if not deserted.😉
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Do we really think we know better than the saints? Perhaps they would say that our concept of mortification is too lax!
 
Mortification other than what is prescribed by the Church (fasting and abstaining from meat on certain days) should not be something you do without a spiritual director’s advice. If you struggle with scrupulosity (which cannot be mistaken for piety or holiness), or a mental/emotional disorder, mortification can be very dangerous. Remember that even though we are all called to be saints, we are not expected to use the same methods.
 
Anything beyond moderate fasting or extended kneeling or choosing to sleep on a floor or w/o a pillow, etc, does NOT get my support. Self flaggelation, wearing things to pierce flesh or just pinch it, or drawing blood, etc and the such doesnt exist in my reality as being able to be done “in moderation” Its sick behavior imo.
 
Jenlyn said:
I would say that you can mortify your senses and become a saint, without drawing blood. 👍 There are saints that did not use the discipline, St. Therese would be one of them.

I believe, and I could be wrong, the St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila both moved from using the discipline to not using it. 🙂

It’s about turning our will into God’s will, not how severe we can live.😃

Peace,
Jenlyn
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👍
 
believe, and I could be wrong, the St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila both moved from using the discipline to not using it. 🙂
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My recollection is that they moderated its use, not completely abandoned it.
 
drforjc said:
Do we really think we know better than the saints? Perhaps they would say that our concept of mortification is too lax!
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More like a non-entity than too lax. Pain and suffering are almost universally avoided. When is that the last time that anyone said pain or suffering were good things ???

Pain is not something that modern society relishes. Otherwise we would not spend billions each year on aspirin and other pain killers.

Obviously the saints know a whole lot more about God than we do. That’s why they’re saints and we’re not.
 
I brought this subject up with my husband last night and he compared it to the training that members of the military participate in. If you hear about some of the things that the “special units” do to prepare themselves for duty it is quite remarkable indeed.

I thought that might be helpful. As far as I’m concerned, since extraordinary mortifications were practiced by some of the greatest saints (Francis of Assisi, for instance), and since God granted these saints extraordinary miracles and gifts, we are not in a position to question them- but we can certainly say that the call to such things is a very rare anomoly and would only apply to most of us by way of analogy.
 
m134e5 said:
Mortification other than what is prescribed by the Church (fasting and abstaining from meat on certain days) should not be something you do without a spiritual director’s advice. If you struggle with scrupulosity (which cannot be mistaken for piety or holiness), or a mental/emotional disorder, mortification can be very dangerous. Remember that even though we are all called to be saints, we are not expected to use the same methods.
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👍 👍 👍 I think every canonized saint would agree with this. Being under the obedience of another is a much safer way to not lose the way on the road to eternal life.
 
Could we not use the discipline of patience, the discipline of kindness, the discipline of humility, in place of beating ourselves? Could these disciplines bring the same results?

Then I ask which is harder to do? A discipline that draws blood or smiling at everyone and saying kind words with kind thoughts all day(you can substitute anything else that you struggle with here and it will still work)? Now there is no doubt it would be hard to beat yourself! Keep in mind that you wouldn’t have to do that all day though like the other.

When the day was through, which discipline activity brought you closer to God? Which one brought more humility? Can beating yourself bring toughts of humility? 🙂 Can discovering how you are so incredibly weak since you failed to be kind and think kind thoughts of other people and giving a kind smile all day bring thoughts of humility?

We grow closer to God by realizing we need Him more. The more we see how weak we are, the closer we grow to God (poverty in spirit). The only way I have found this is in trying to do something like I’ve mentioned and found that I wasn’t totally successful.

I then turn more to God and trust myself less and less.

Just some thoughts I wanted to add to the dicussion. I love reading about saint lives. They are great motivators, to say the least! And it’s great when you find one that touches you very deeply!!!😃
 
Jenlyn said:
Could we not use the discipline of patience, the discipline of kindness, the discipline of humility, in place of beating ourselves? Could these disciplines bring the same results?
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Agree! That is what I was talking about earlier in my post: “pick up our cross, dying to self and live in Christ”. Repeatedly die to our old self and live in Christ actually takes more efforts than beating our body with a whip.

I am currently practicing this self discipline - whenever I have any complaint, uncomfortable feelings or any judgemental thoughts in my heart about anyone, I immediately ask God in my heart to bless that person. So far so good.😃 😉 🙂
 
I’m not sure it has to be either/or. Certainly the saints and religious who used the discipline also practiced humility, obedience, and all the other “alternatives” some of you are mentioning, yet they still saw the need to mortify the senses.
I agree about the need to consult a spiritual director before attempting it, but to imply it is worthless or unChristian to me indicates a contempt for the experience of many holy saints.
 
After a good night’s sleep, I am going to take one more crack at it.

Many great spiritual writers and saints recommend some form of mortification of the senses or body. We can even pick up a trace of this in 1 Cor 9:27 where Paul says he “pommels” his body to subdue it. I recall one saint, (Benedict? Francis?) diving into a patch of stinging nettle to avoid temptations of the flesh. St Teresa of Jesus de Los Andes used to walk around with pebbles deliberately placed in her shoes, as another example.
This is different from mortification of the will, which would describe the things that I’m hearing from Jen Lyn and In Light. Those things are very important and should, indeed, make up the greatest part of our efforts.
Nonetheless, a balanced “diet” of mortifications, should include some form of mortification of the senses, to discipline the body and those temptations which come through its senses.
Self-flagellation is only one form of corporal mortification. It would seem that it is mostly suited for ascetical religious. Wearing a hairshirt is also common in history.
However, most of us laity would probably (and aptly, I would add) choose a more moderate expression of bodily discipline. Fasting and/or abstinence is an example. Others might include such varied things as taking a cool or shower rather than a hot one, or using little or no seasoning in one’s food from time to time. I’m sure with a bit of thought we could probably come up with more.
The other concept, which I picked up from St Teresa of Avila, was exercising moderation in these things. Discipline, not mutilation, is what we are talking about.

So in summary, mortification of the will is most important and should receive more of our time and energy than corporal mortification, but saying that does not invalidate corporal discipline nor render it useless or wrong. It should be done in consultation with spiritual direction and in moderation but it does have a purpose which is well-attested to by the wisdom of the saints and many spiritual writers. The form in which it takes should be a form that is suited to our individual makeup,spiritual state, and needs.
 
So in summary, mortification of the will is most important and should receive more of our time and energy than corporal mortification, but saying that does not invalidate corporal discipline nor render it useless or wrong. It should be done in consultation with spiritual direction and in moderation but it does have a purpose which is well-attested to by the wisdom of the saints and many spiritual writers. The form in which it takes should be a form that is suited to our individual makeup,spiritual state, and needs.
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:amen:

Corporal discipline alone does not a saint make!😃
However, most of us laity would probably (and aptly, I would add) choose a more moderate expression of bodily discipline. Fasting and/or abstinence is an example. Others might include such varied things as taking a cool or shower rather than a hot one, or using little or no seasoning in one’s food from time to time. I’m sure with a bit of thought we could probably come up with more.
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All excellent examples. Fasting is an intergal part of our faith.👍
 
Here’s mytwo cents and I bet it’s worth more.
Mortification or what ever we may call it is the feeding of the spirit to cause it’s flesh to become less than being wanted by the wearer.
The saints do this for the very reason that their sights are so far removed from leaning on the world. For every thought they had they turned it into a form of sighting Jesus against their worldly desires.
Saints lived and lived again on desiring to have nothing of the world unless it was able to bring glory to God. Did I say saints DID, no they still do because there are those who are in this time, saints who live by what is termed mortification.

Just think, if you were wanting to have a shave and you didn’t use a cream, or mind the bluntness of the blade to cut. Or went to the toilet with the top up , or didn’t worry about flash clothing, or were not considered for a job you know you should get, or instead of moaning about some person creating a big noise you kept quiet, or a person wanting your tools clothing other equipment and you didn’t get it back, and yet you don’t worry about it. You stop on the side of the road to help a person to give a person a ride home even though you have to turn around go the other way.

You spoil your food and yet don’t do it so others see it, but do it to turn your mind away from the gayity of nice food and all these points to tell Jesus I love You Jesus and do this to tell Him I am keeping my heart on You, my thoughts on Jesus. As Jesus tells us be perfect as He is perfect.
Mortification…NO …Love of and for Jesus, yes.

God bless

littleone
 
I’m reminded of an old exercise cliche, No pain, no gain. I would say the saints who used more extreme discipline methods, also practiced the more moderate non-physical disciplines and also to a high degree.

Take fasting for instance, some or many of the saints took fasting to the extreme. Most would more likely call it starvation. Some literally lived off the Holy Eucharist and not much more.

In this day and age, any discipline is lacking. We are as a society a very spoiled and pampered people. Creature comforts are the name of the game.

When is the last time you’ve seen anything in the media that says, buy this or do this activity to make yourself less reliant on comfort and instead discipline your body, mind or soul ?

You can bet your bottom dollar, such a thing will never happen. The goal of every media is to sell or encourage easier living, reliance on acquiring or obtaining something to make life easier, or to divert or eliminate pain, or to do or see something entertaining or pleasureable.

We practice pain avoidance and suffering avoidance. Pain and suffering is the very opposite of the American dream. Everything we see and hear points us in the other direction.

The question we have to ask ourselves is, since pain and suffering were practiced to a high degree by the holiest heroes of our faith, should we not also turn away from creature comforts and embrace more austere practices as well ???

To me some of these folks are far wiser than I. A few of them communed with God almost on a daily basis. It was said that St. Gerald Majella as a toddler was literally the playmate of the child Jesus.

I’m not about to get into disciplining to blood or sleeping on thorny mattresses. But the focus of my entire life has been avoiding pain, and obtaining as many creature comforts as possible. I hate the cold, (or the extreme heat in summer) being hungry, bad or tatesless food, walking or exercise, etc. etc.

I love sports, diverting my boredom with diversions, games, shopping, the arts, etc. I am the typical American tv addict, typical consumer

All the things that I hate, the saints loved. All the things that I love the saints avoided. Are we not as a society headed in the wrong direction ???

We don’t have to follow the most extreme examples, but don’t we at least need to head more in their direction ? For now we are completely headed in the opposite direction, and since they are in Heaven, where will that leave us ??
 
Keep in mind the mind-set of the times that these saints lived in. It was thought that mortification of the flesh, through self-flagation, etc, was necessary to obtain holiness. But this isn’t what made these people saints. It was how they lived out their lives according to the Gospel, which made them holy, not their extreme self-mortification’s. How they loved God and their neighbors, is the key and attempting to do this perfectly, will bring itself, suffering, because we’ll have to detach ourselves from our own selfish desires.

If self inflicted pain is what it takes to become a saint, then St. Theresa would have to have her saint-hood retracted, because she opposed these measures. She said essentially, that life provides enough thorns for us to use as a means of offering penance.

In Christ
Jim
 
littleone
Mortification…NO …Love of and for Jesus, yes.
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Mortification is done for love of Jesus.
Please re-read my last post for examples of what the Church understands by mortification.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Keep in mind the mind-set of the times that these saints lived in. It was thought that mortification of the flesh, through self-flagation, etc, was necessary to obtain holiness. But this isn’t what made these people saints. It was how they lived out their lives according to the Gospel, which made them holy, not their extreme self-mortification’s. How they loved God and their neighbors, is the key and attempting to do this perfectly, will bring itself, suffering, because we’ll have to detach ourselves from our own selfish desires.

If self inflicted pain is what it takes to become a saint, then St. Theresa would have to have her saint-hood retracted, because she opposed these measures. She said essentially, that life provides enough thorns for us to use as a means of offering penance.

In Christ
Jim
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Which St THERESA ARE YOU REFERING TO, PLEASE
 
littleone said:
Here’s mytwo cents and I bet it’s worth more.
…

As Jesus tells us be perfect as He is perfect.
Mortification…NO …Love of and for Jesus, yes.

God bless

littleone
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Littleone, I agree all the way until you say “mortification NO”

Most of the saints, said mortification YES, and of course, they all said Love of Jesus Yes.

I guess the question then is, does Jesus ask us for mortifications ??? and to what degree.

He certainly asks us, " to take up our cross" and to follow Him…

The saints to some degree took up their crosses and allowed themselves to be tortured and crucified with Him as well.

we aren’t all ‘asked’ to be tortured and killed literally…
but does that excuse us from embracing pain and suffering, and to continue seeking comfort and diversions.
 
drforjc said:
littleone

Mortification is done for love of Jesus.
Please re-read my last post for examples of what the Church understands by mortification.
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I know what I wrote and mortification is love of Jesus of God, if the act is done in love of God. I am saying that we can say any word that seems to fit but it is all LOVE of God.
 
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