Self mortification... what do you think?

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wcknight said:
Littleone, I agree all the way until you say “mortification NO”

Most of the saints, said mortification YES, and of course, they all said Love of Jesus Yes.

I guess the question then is, does Jesus ask us for mortifications ??? and to what degree.

He certainly asks us, " to take up our cross" and to follow Him…

The saints to some degree took up their crosses and allowed themselves to be tortured and crucified with Him as well.

we aren’t all ‘asked’ to be tortured and killed literally…
but does that excuse us from embracing pain and suffering, and to continue seeking comfort and diversions.
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I agree with you and there is no conflict I just prefer the word LOVE when relating to God. Terms are terms words are words but to me the word Love is like Truth there is no substitute.
Do you see what I mean? I hope so because I am saying, the same as you, my terminology differs a little I guess.
I suppose I want to use the word Love when refering to God I don’t think He gets enough.
God bless

littleone
 
No one prays for pain and suffering, at least not any more. If anything most folks pray to be alleviated from it. It is a perfectly normal human reaction to avoid it.

But it has long been taught that we ought to offer up our pain and suffering in union with Christ for the expiation of sins.

And I agree that in the normal course of a life some pain and suffering is encountered, some of which is inevitable. Some folks seem to have heavier burdens than others. Even some saints suffered much more or much less.

It may not be a requirement for sainthood, but could be a measure of how much some saints loved God. IF they are willing to endure great hardships, does that not exhibit great faith and great love ?

For us who are barely willing to endure minor discomforts or inconveniences there is no comparison.

In their day, they may not have had TVs and fancy cars, but there were some creature comforts as well, and giving up even minor items back them was more of a sacrifice than foregoing a modern convenience today…

My guess is that even today there are probably some societies that still believe and practice self mortifications, and probably almost as extreme as in past ages.

It’s not just a matter of penance or suffering for our own sins. The saints were in the business of assisting Christ in penance for sins of others.
 
littleone said:
I agree with you and there is no conflict I just prefer the word LOVE when relating to God. Terms are terms words are words but to me the word Love is like Truth there is no substitute.
Do you see what I mean? I hope so because I am saying, the same as you, my terminology differs a little I guess.
I suppose I want to use the word Love when refering to God I don’t think He gets enough.
God bless

littleone
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👍 sorry, I thought you were rejecting mortifications… yes mortification = love of God.

Anyone willing to endure great pain for God, loves God to a heroic level.
 
The love of God and men along with all other virtues made those men and women saints. Saints may or may not have applied corporal mortification; therefore, such mortification is not a requirement for sainthood or proof of love for God.

The question we need to ask ourselves is this: “Would the mortification I engage in help me grow the love of God and men as well as other virtues? Is this corporal mortification the best way to help me achieve holiness and show my love for God and men?”

If only by whipping my back, putting pebbles in my shoes, or starving myself for stomach pain could help me forgive my brother, walk extra miles to help the needy, or never tell a lie again, then there may be significance.

Fasting and abstinence definitely have their values. They are self discipline and self sacrifice without hurting the temple of the Holy Spirit - our body. However, afflicting our own body to extreme extent may be unnecessary even they were practiced by some saints.

Just because certain corporal mortification were practiced by certain saints does not automatically mean such method is appropriate. This is not to contempt any saint for only God is infallible.
 
We, as a people, need to mortify our senses. It is very true. When we mortify our sense and in turn mortify our will we do become more detached.

Are you talking about becoming detached from the world wcknight? Which is something the saints talk about over and over again?

You mentioned in very first post that St. Gerald lived more in the next life than in this. That can only be accomplished by detaching yourself from this world.

Now what means you use to attain this is what we are discussing here. What types of mortification do you, personally, need to attain perfection? To become entirely detached? Even from yourself?

That is where, as it has been advised from posters here, that you need a spiritual director.

wknight, you have a tender heart. you are searching how to grow closer to God. Beyond that, though, you are also concerned for all of us. Thank you!
 
Jenlyn said:
We, as a people, need to mortify our senses. It is very true. When we mortify our sense and in turn mortify our will we do become more detached.

Are you talking about becoming detached from the world wcknight? Which is something the saints talk about over and over again?

You mentioned in very first post that St. Gerald lived more in the next life than in this. That can only be accomplished by detaching yourself from this world.

Now what means you use to attain this is what we are discussing here. What types of mortification do you, personally, need to attain perfection? To become entirely detached? Even from yourself?

That is where, as it has been advised from posters here, that you need a spiritual director.

wknight, you have a tender heart. you are searching how to grow closer to God. Beyond that, though, you are also concerned for all of us. Thank you!
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Thanks, but I like most, am only trying to find my way to God as well.

And yes becoming detached from the world is one lesson that I seem to hear that is consistent with many of the saints that I read about.

Some evenings, I go home and at the end of the day. I reflect and am amazed that most of my day was so much of a distraction. I may have said a prayer or two IF I remembered, but it was for the most part a distraction, self centered or mainly engaged with diversions whether it was work, surfing the web or some else.

Some are very legitimate activities, some may even be very positive actions like helping others, but most I think are much less noteworthy.

I don’t ever expect to attain the level of any saint, but I think we can all do a better job of being more God concious and less world concious. The more I think about the more I believe that most of this societies media re leading us in precisely the opposite direction.

I see my kids playing vidoe games for hours on end, totally immersed in some piece of software developed specifically to keep their attention in some fantasy world. A great TV such as “24” holds millions of viewers (including myself) in rapt attention for hours on end. Is this a good thing ???

It is not exactly evil, but it certainly is a huge diversion. IF it is sinful, it is very very subtle, and that makes it much more dangerous. Overt attacks are easy to recognize. Outrageously sinful things are easy to spot, and for most, easy to avoid. Comfort, entertainment, and simple diversions have much better disguises. It is hard for anyone to condemn things that almost everyone enjoys.

Too much of a good thing, is tough to avoid. It is easy to say drug or cigarette addition is bad for you. TV or game play or other diversions, is a bit more subtle.
 
I have no intention to spur anyone into extreme corporal self disciplines to any extent like the saints. What I wanted to point out was we as a society have values in the other extreme. We are too concerned with creature comforts, and discipline even in the most innocuous sense, is almost non existent.

How many folks purposely take the stais instead of an elevator ? (maybe not to the 25th floor, but how about to the second or third floor),

Giving up some creature comforts would not bruise anyone, but a little less tv, or a bit of a walk o exercise would go a long ways to help us physically and maybe a bit spiritually as well.
 
I have no intention to spur anyone into extreme corporal self disciplines to any extent like the saints. What I wanted to point out was that, we as a society have values in the other extreme. We are too concerned with creature comforts, and discipline even in the most innocuous sense, is almost non existent.

How many folks purposely take the stairs instead of an elevator ? (maybe not to the 25th floor :bigyikes: , but how about to the second or third floor),

Giving up some creature comforts would not bruise or maim anyone, but a little less tv, or a bit of a walk or exercise would go a long ways to help us physically and maybe a bit spiritually as well.
 
wcknight,

I see the correlation between your fist and your last post. You love St. Gerald because he did what you struggle, as we all do, to do. In fact that’s what all the saints did.

A thought that came to mind in thinking about your first and last post was Lent. Yes, Lent. In Lent you fast, give up, from something. Many people fast from food items. This misses the point of fasting. Fasting in Lent is meant to be a changing experience. We should not only fast for the 40 days but continue it for life.

Maybe you and your family can focus on one thing they can give up this Lent and do it together. Working as a team helps since you have a support group. But don’t use the time you would normally do on the activity you gave up with something else worldly. Replace it with a family rosary or scripture reading or spiritual reading or adoration or whatever.

We can’t make ourselves a saint in a day. Take one thing at a time. You and your family will grow closer to good with every baby step you all make.

Do everything you can to get you and your family to Heaven.

-Peace
 
wcknight said:
… I reflect and am amazed that most of my day was so much of a distraction. I may have said a prayer or two IF I remembered, but it was for the most part a distraction, self centered or mainly engaged with diversions whether it was work…
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Thinking about St. Therese’s life in the Carmel of Lisieux and the Influence of Her “Little Way”, I have to say that though we are living in this world and bound to various daily duties and distractions, we still can give meaning to everything we do as long as we do it out of the love of God.

My computer job is usually stressful. But I still can pray throughout the day. Usually by the time I drive from home to office, I can finish either a Rosary or a Sacred Heart of Jesus Novena. While waiting for a computer job finish running, I can say a Chaplet of Divine Mercy. When I take a 15 minutes break, I can say another Rosary. When I walk to the bath room or go to get a cup of coffee, I tell Jesus that I love him. When I encounter a problem with my work, I ask for Holy Spirit’s help. During my lunch break, I can read my Bible or get on CAF. On my way driving home, I pray more.

I have no intention to show how pious I am. I am simply sharing a true picture of my daily routine. I am literally practicing what Brother Lawrence taught - “The Practice of The Presence of God”. I believe in order to detach ourselves to this world, we have to attach ourselves to God first. And the best way to attach to God is to think of Him as much as possible,to continually practice the presence of God.

It is great that you have the realization of the necessity of detachment. All you need is to practice and form a habit of attaching to God.

And, even some of things we do are tedious and seem to be meaningless, if we offer them to God, they will have a meaning. That is the spirit of St. Therese’s little way.
 
InLight247 said:
Thinking about St. Therese’s life in the Carmel of Lisieux and the Influence of Her “Little Way”, I have to say that though we are living in this world and bound to various daily duties and distractions, we still can give meaning to everything we do as long as we do it out of the love of God.

My computer job is usually stressful. But I still can pray throughout the day. Usually by the time I drive from home to office, I can finish either a Rosary or a Sacred Heart of Jesus Novena. While waiting for a computer job finish running, I can say a Chaplet of Divine Mercy. When I take a 15 minutes break, I can say another Rosary. When I walk to the bath room or go to get a cup of coffee, I tell Jesus that I love him. When I encounter a problem with my work, I ask for Holy Spirit’s help. During my lunch break, I can read my Bible or get on CAF. On my way driving home, I pray more.

I have no intention to show how pious I am. I am simply sharing a true picture of my daily routine. I am literally practicing what Brother Lawrence taught - “The Practice of The Presence of God”. I believe in order to detach ourselves to this world, we have to attach ourselves to God first. And the best way to attach to God is to think of Him as much as possible,to continually practice the presence of God.

It is great that you have the realization of the necessity of detachment. All you need is to practice and form a habit of attaching to God.

And, even some of things we do are tedious and seem to be meaningless, if we offer them to God, they will have a meaning. That is the spirit of St. Therese’s little way.
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In this day of time management, I think we also need to ensure we are fully focused on the present moment. It also involves 100% dedication and concentration when we are working and when we are praying. So when we dedicate our work to God and at the same execute it perfectly, even how humble or mundane the job maybe (so long as it is honest job), it becomes a form of prayer. This is called sanctification of work, which if practiced to the fullest, becomes closely related to or sometimes overlaps with mortification.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
St. Theresa of Lisieux, the Little Flower.

Jim
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Hi Jim thought yu might like to look up but I think her name is Therese with no A at the end. not that it matters other than I was not too sure if the act related to Therese Little flower or Theresa of Avala. Thanks for the info.

God bless
little one
 
InLight247 said:
Thinking about St. Therese’s life in the Carmel of Lisieux and the Influence of Her “Little Way”, I have to say that though we are living in this world and bound to various daily duties and distractions, we still can give meaning to everything we do as long as we do it out of the love of God.

My computer job is usually stressful. But I still can pray throughout the day. Usually by the time I drive from home to office, I can finish either a Rosary or a Sacred Heart of Jesus Novena. While waiting for a computer job finish running, I can say a Chaplet of Divine Mercy. When I take a 15 minutes break, I can say another Rosary. When I walk to the bath room or go to get a cup of coffee, I tell Jesus that I love him. When I encounter a problem with my work, I ask for Holy Spirit’s help. During my lunch break, I can read my Bible or get on CAF. On my way driving home, I pray more.

I have no intention to show how pious I am. I am simply sharing a true picture of my daily routine. I am literally practicing what Brother Lawrence taught - “The Practice of The Presence of God”. I believe in order to detach ourselves to this world, we have to attach ourselves to God first. And the best way to attach to God is to think of Him as much as possible,to continually practice the presence of God.

It is great that you have the realization of the necessity of detachment. All you need is to practice and form a habit of attaching to God.

And, even some of things we do are tedious and seem to be meaningless, if we offer them to God, they will have a meaning. That is the spirit of St. Therese’s little way.
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Sounds fine, the trick is getting it into practice.

Over the course of a week or two some of what you say might that place. Most of the time, I am immersed in whatever I’m doing.

There may be some weekends, when I might say a morning prayer and maybe an evening prayer, the rest is rush here, rush there. Sunday mass is of course a piece of cake. Then there might be a movie or tv or some sporting event. Most of those things manage to divert 100% of one’s attention. Blocks of undistracted time is a rarity.

The thing I see different with the saints, is that they manged to keep their focus away from distractions or they had few interests outside of praying, praising, obeying or offering devotion to God. Or at least it appeared to be that way.

One potential saint, (Fr Michael McGivney -founder of the KofC), apparently was quite fond of baseball. Maybe the saints that I’m more familiar with are more along the lines of Comtemplative societies.

Which bring up a topic for another thread (Water Cooler/Back Fence). Will Heaven have activities that were popular diversions/past times on earth ??
 
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