Self mortification

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prolifeteenager

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I have been thinking lately about the components of the catholic view of the spiritual life, and I can’t help but question some of the means to attaining heaven.

First of all, there is the whole thing about turning the other cheek. To be honest, I have tried to follow this advice for my whole life. But, I can’t say it has a positive effect. Those who would hurt you in the first place will not change their ways simply because you ignored their slights against you. In my experience, it only has sent the message that I’m easy to walk all over and that they can do it again easy peasy.

Second, when I hear about saints who have self flagellated, I automatically wonder why any kind of self harm makes a person holy. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and harming ourselves in anyway makes me think those saints didn’t respect the body God gave them (I have the same view of cosmetic surgery.) I don’t see how the ends justify the means. We are commanded to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, but if we define loving ourselves as hurting ourselves, I’m not quite sure how we can properly love others.

Basically, my concern is that I have tried to strictly follow the church on self mortification (not flagellation though) and it has only brought me severe depression and anxiety due to the stress brought upon me by others who equate me to pushover because I’m trying to be faithful. And when I do stick up for myself they use the catholic faith against me to shame me. They wouldn’t even deploy that tactic if I hadn’t been sincere in my desire to follow Christ to begin with. Does Jesus really expect us to be trampled on in order to get to heaven? I thought he took our place upon the cross; why must we be (allegorically) crucified as well?
 
First off, how old are you?

Secondly no, turning the other cheek does not mean letting people walk all over you. You are allowed to defend yourself and others.

Thirdly mortification is a tricky issue, stick to fasting and leave most all the other types of mortification to religious or if you find a spiritual advisor who can guide you in these things. Also, why are you attempting mortification?

Finally Jesus tells us to pick up our crosses and follow Him, He never said I have taken up the cross so you don’t have to suffer. He says take my yoke and be happy about it.
 
USMC_Convert said:
First off, how old are you?

Secondly no, turning the other cheek does not mean letting people walk all over you. You are allowed to defend yourself and others.

Thirdly mortification is a tricky issue, stick to fasting and leave most all the other types of mortification to religious or if you find a spiritual advisor who can guide you in these things. Also, why are you attempting mortification?

Finally Jesus tells us to pick up our crosses and follow Him, He never said I have taken up the cross so you don’t have to suffer. He says take my yoke and be happy about it.
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I’m in my mid twenties. I made the account when I was a teen but didn’t use it much back then.
I’m not attempting self mortification, but back when I was in my teens I immersed myself in the diary of St. Faustina. I also have visited her convent in Poland and learned how she would wrap spikes around her waist under her habit. She did lots of self inflicted penance, and upon reading her writings I started to think like her even though I never actually inflicted any pain upon myself like she did. I guess I just noticed the trend among the saints that they were willing to be treated poorly for God. But, in my experience It is destructive for the average person.
And, Im not talking about carrying your cross everyday; that is obvious. I’m talking about doing extra penance and the idea that if you want to be saintly you can’t defend yourself.
 
This is one thing many of us find repellant.

And many of us already have more than enough physical pains thank you!

If it is a case of subduing pride? I can think of far more sensible and constructive ways to do that, but then I think that about over rigorous gym attendance too

And it can lead to pride of itself.
 
Take a look at St. Teresa of Avila’s autobiography. I think it’s important to know that one has to be advanced in prayer to truly want to suffer for God. There are levels. I liken the soul to a seven story brick house. You must first unlock the front door to be able to go through the second! And if any mortal sin is committed, down goes the brick house, tumbling to the ground. I see self mortification in the more upper stories, probably the seventh. Determination to please God, spiritual reading, and prayer is the key to opening these doors. It can take years of perseverance in prayer and good duties (it took around 20 years for St. Teresa of Avila to transform from lukewarm to fervent) to be be able to attain special graces to truly want to suffer for God like St. Faustina did, but when God knows you’re ready he will surely bestow these graces on you. However, it’s different for everyone.

God bless
 
Once a man came to St Philip Neri and asked him if he thought wearing a hair shirt was a good penance. St Philip replied that it would be a good penance if he wore the hair shirt outside his nice clothes.
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😃
 
prolifeteenager said:
I’m in my mid twenties. I made the account when I was a teen but didn’t use it much back then.
I’m not attempting self mortification, but back when I was in my teens I immersed myself in the diary of St. Faustina. I also have visited her convent in Poland and learned how she would wrap spikes around her waist under her habit. She did lots of self inflicted penance, and upon reading her writings I started to think like her even though I never actually inflicted any pain upon myself like she did. I guess I just noticed the trend among the saints that they were willing to be treated poorly for God. But, in my experience It is destructive for the average person.
And, Im not talking about carrying your cross everyday; that is obvious. I’m talking about doing extra penance and the idea that if you want to be saintly you can’t defend yourself.
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This is well said. No one should undergo self mortification until they seek a priest of spiritual direction in my opinion.

Mary.
 
misstherese said:
Take a look at St. Teresa of Avila’s autobiography. I think it’s important to know that one has to be advanced in prayer to truly want to suffer for God. There are levels. I liken the soul to a seven story brick house. You must first unlock the front door to be able to go through the second! And if any mortal sin is committed, down goes the brick house, tumbling to the ground. I see self mortification in the more upper stories, probably the seventh. Determination to please God, spiritual reading, and prayer is the key to opening these doors. It can take years of perseverance in prayer and good duties (it took around 20 years for St. Teresa of Avila to transform from lukewarm to fervent) to be be able to attain special graces to truly want to suffer for God like St. Faustina did, but when God knows you’re ready he will surely bestow these graces on you. However, it’s different for everyone.

God bless
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This is really interesting. I’ll look into getting my hands on her autobiography. I think it may have some of the answers I’m looking for.
 
prolifeteenager said:
I have been thinking lately about the components of the catholic view of the spiritual life, and I can’t help but question some of the means to attaining heaven.

First of all, there is the whole thing about turning the other cheek. To be honest, I have tried to follow this advice for my whole life. But, I can’t say it has a positive effect. Those who would hurt you in the first place will not change their ways simply because you ignored their slights against you. In my experience, it only has sent the message that I’m easy to walk all over and that they can do it again easy peasy.

Second, when I hear about saints who have self flagellated, I automatically wonder why any kind of self harm makes a person holy. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and harming ourselves in anyway makes me think those saints didn’t respect the body God gave them (I have the same view of cosmetic surgery.) I don’t see how the ends justify the means. We are commanded to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, but if we define loving ourselves as hurting ourselves, I’m not quite sure how we can properly love others.

Basically, my concern is that I have tried to strictly follow the church on self mortification (not flagellation though) and it has only brought me severe depression and anxiety due to the stress brought upon me by others who equate me to pushover because I’m trying to be faithful. And when I do stick up for myself they use the catholic faith against me to shame me. They wouldn’t even deploy that tactic if I hadn’t been sincere in my desire to follow Christ to begin with. Does Jesus really expect us to be trampled on in order to get to heaven? I thought he took our place upon the cross; why must we be (allegorically) crucified as well?
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Isn’t it really the ego that needs to be mortified rather than the physical body? The body is just the house. When Scripture implores us to die to self in order to be reborn of Spirit, it has never meant death to the body.
 
Deus_tecum said:
Isn’t it really the ego that needs to be mortified rather than the physical body? The body is just the house. When Scripture implores us to die to self in order to be reborn of Spirit, it has never meant death to the body.
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Good point. 👍
 
Mortification is not “about hurting oneself”…

That is key.

Above all it is about love.
 
"But what do his words mean? Why does Jesus ask us to love precisely our enemies, that is, a love which exceeds human capacities?

Actually, Christ’s proposal is realistic because it takes into account that in the world there is too much violence, too much injustice, and therefore that this situation cannot be overcome except by countering it with more love, with more goodness. This “more” comes from God: it is his mercy which was made flesh in Jesus and which alone can “tip the balance” of the world from evil to good, starting with that small and decisive “world” which is the human heart.

This Gospel passage is rightly considered the magna carta of Christian non-violence. It does not consist in succumbing to evil, as a false interpretation of “turning the other cheek” (cf. Lk 6: 29) claims, but in responding to evil with good (cf. Rom 12: 17-21) and thereby breaking the chain of injustice.

One then understands that for Christians, non-violence is not merely tactical behaviour but a person’s way of being, the attitude of one who is so convinced of God’s love and power that he is not afraid to tackle evil with the weapons of love and truth alone. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/angelus/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20070218.html
 
Sounds like you need to find a good Priest for Spiritual direction. That in your zeal you may have adopted some things or attitudes that are not quite on the mark.
 
“… there is one great Friend, who is the author of the joy of all and who fills our hearts with a joy that surpasses all other joys and lasts a lifetime: he is Jesus.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2012/december/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121220_acr.html

“Dear friends, today too the Risen One enters our homes and our hearts, even when, at times, the doors are closed. He enters giving joy and peace, life and hope, gifts we need for our human and spiritual rebirth. Only he can roll away those stones from the tombs in which all too often people seal themselves off from their own feelings, their own relationships, their own behaviour; stones that sanction death: division, enmity, resentment, envy, diffidence, indifference. Only he, the Living One, can give meaning to existence and enable those who are weary and sad, downhearted and drained of hope, to continue on their journey. This was the experience of the two disciples who were on their way from Jerusalem to Emmaus on Easter Day (cf. Lk 24:13-35). They were talking about Jesus but their sad looks (cf. v. 17), expressed their disappointed hopes, uncertainty and melancholy. They had left their homeland to follow Jesus with his friends and had discovered a new reality in which forgiveness and love were no longer only words but had a tangible effect on life. Jesus of Nazareth had made all things new, he had transformed their life. But now he was dead and it all seemed to be over.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

"“Gaudete in Domino semper”, St Paul wrote: “Rejoice in the Lord always” (Phil 4:4). True joy is not a fruit of “divertirsi” [having a good time] understood in the etymological sense of the word di-vertere (di-version), that is, shirking the commitments of life and one’s responsibilities.

True joy is linked to something deeper. Of course, in the all too often frenetic pace of daily life it is important to find time for rest and relaxation, but true joy is linked to our relationship with God. Those who have encountered Christ in their own lives feel a serenity and joy in their hearts that no one and no situation can take from them. St Augustine understood this very well; in his quest for truth, peace and joy, after seeking them in vain in many things he concluded with his famous words: “and our heart is restless until it rests in God” (cf. Confessions, I, 1, 1).

True joy is not merely a passing state of mind or something that can be achieved with the person’s own effort; rather it is a gift, born from the encounter with the living Person of Jesus and, making room within ourselves, from welcoming the Holy Spirit who guides our lives. It is the invitation of the Apostle Paul who says: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:23)."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/angelus/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20111211.html

(all from w2.vatican.va)
 
Hi, prolifeteenager

A couple of months on, did you find answers to your concerns? Just interested as it resonates with where I was, in my teen years.
 
Jesus suffered for us but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t suffer… He made suffering holy and now we can offer it to God with the Cross. It became a way to love. St Paul talks about suffering to fill up what is missing in Christ’s Passion… As i understand, nothing is missing there except our participation. Its the way we learn to love. Jesus redeemed us yes but when you love someone you want to share in everything with the person you love, so in loving Jesus, we begin to love suffering. We don’t enjoy it but love it in a spiritual way, in wanting to share everything with Jesus.

Also Jesus redeemed us but when we suffer with Him it’s like a form of intercession where we can obtain graces of conversion for souls. These graces come from the Cross but prayers and sacrifices for sinners are ways that God uses to distribute these graces.

Turning the other cheek might change someone or it might not, but what it would always do is prevent you from becoming like that other person. It doesn’t mean being a doormat because we don’t need to be around everyone… But if its unavoidable, responding in the same way would make you just like that person who did something wrong. Its also an act of charity towards a sinner, not just letting people walk all over you.

As for corporal mortification… God talks about it to St Catherine of Siena in the Dialogue. The idea as I remember is that should never be done for its only sake, its not a virtue but a means to a virtue.

It doesn’t mean its supposed to harm health or disfigure the body. That’s why its important to ask a spiritual director for permission if a person ever does anything like this.

As I read your post, I thought maybe it could help to take a break from these issues for a time and just concentrate in spending time with God, doing mental prayer, and maybe that would help more?

God bless you
 
prolifeteenager said:
I have been thinking lately about the components of the catholic view of the spiritual life, and I can’t help but question some of the means to attaining heaven.

First of all, there is the whole thing about turning the other cheek. To be honest, I have tried to follow this advice for my whole life. But, I can’t say it has a positive effect. Those who would hurt you in the first place will not change their ways simply because you ignored their slights against you. In my experience, it only has sent the message that I’m easy to walk all over and that they can do it again easy peasy.

Second, when I hear about saints who have self flagellated, I automatically wonder why any kind of self harm makes a person holy. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and harming ourselves in anyway makes me think those saints didn’t respect the body God gave them (I have the same view of cosmetic surgery.) I don’t see how the ends justify the means. We are commanded to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, but if we define loving ourselves as hurting ourselves, I’m not quite sure how we can properly love others.

Basically, my concern is that I have tried to strictly follow the church on self mortification (not flagellation though) and it has only brought me severe depression and anxiety due to the stress brought upon me by others who equate me to pushover because I’m trying to be faithful. And when I do stick up for myself they use the catholic faith against me to shame me. They wouldn’t even deploy that tactic if I hadn’t been sincere in my desire to follow Christ to begin with. Does Jesus really expect us to be trampled on in order to get to heaven? I thought he took our place upon the cross; why must we be (allegorically) crucified as well?
Click to expand...
For me, the mortification of the “self” is the key and for me, it was getting me to despise all forms of worldly pleasures, and I feel certain that the Holy Spirit was always there within me, showing me that spiritual pleasures are superior in every way. I still listen to classical music, a lot of Masses and Gregorian chants, I also allow myself to visit sites like facebook where I have a lot of “friends” who post encouraging passages of scripture and related things, and I still visit this site, but I have not had a television for about 20 years, do not read the news, and I avoid all the sports. I’m at the point that I no longer want anything from this world except the basic necessities and I live in almost complete solitude, but I find great pleasure in praying for people.
 
Turning the other cheek doesn’t mean being walked over and treated like dirt. If you put up patiently with other’s evil toward you for the love of God, that is a great grace. However, if you are in your mid-twenties and are in a situation where someone is taking advantage of you/using you/scorning you, get out of that situation! Have self-respect! I do not believe God wants us to play the victim door-mat in situations over which we have control.

When Lucia asked Mary in one of her private visions what type of penance is required today, Our Lady answered that what is required is just to bear with what is given us daily. I love that answer and believe it is true. Daily life gives us ample opportunity to exercise patience, generosity, honesty, charity, humility, hope, temperance, without anything extraordinary.

I am turned off by accounts of self-flagellation, hair shirts, chains, etc. But a couple things to note here: St. Faustina (and presumably all religious) always had to ask permission to undertake any additional penance like this and she was often denied. Jesus repeatedly told her that her obedience was worth much, much more than the extraordinary form of penance. Jesus stated to her something to the effect of: one hour meditating on My Wounds is worth more fin terms of penance than a year of wearing the chain. I believe it!!

Rather than hair shirts, etc. little acts of mortification for the love of God, as St. Therese of Lisieux taught, are a lot better for our own spiritual situations. For example, bearing with a boring person, curbing curiosity, keeping silent when we want to speak, bearing the heat when we want to turn on the air conditioning, skipping lunch, etc.
 
prolifeteenager said:
This is really interesting. I’ll look into getting my hands on her autobiography. I think it may have some of the answers I’m looking for.
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If you’re open to reading, I’d suggest one (or both) of two books - one more condensed and scholarly (1938), and more focussed on the “stages”; the second more contemporary (2003), written by a lay man for lay people, bringing in more dimensions of living the life of grace - but both explain the process of growing in Christ, growing in the life of grace, following the spirituality known and lived by many holy saints in our Catholic tradition. The spirituality is of a process of growth (if one indeed does grow) through three main “stages” or “ages” in the life of grace:
  1. the “purgative stage” of the Beginners,
  2. the “illuminative stage” of the Proficients,
  3. the “unitive stage” of the Perfect.
The growth in these stages,
  • from the child-in-Christ that characterizes the Beginner (who can be of any chronological age, but only a beginner in the spiritual life),
  • to the adolescent-to-young-adult-in Christ, the Proficient (who can be of any chronological age, but still not fully mature in the spiritual life),
  • to the maturity of the spiritual life, the Perfect in the unitive stage (of whatever chronological age he/she might be).
It is confusing, possibly discouraging, even leading to rejection of the whole idea, if a young person in Christ reads a saint, and concludes that this ought to describe him or her “now.” Have you ever heard an adult say “Stop acting like that! Grow up!” to a child who is merely acting like a child, after all? The “adult” is not being realistic, if he does expect mature adult behavior from a child - or even from an adolescent, for that matter. God “grows” us through stages, in life, and His ways are right and good.

The two books I’d suggest are:
  1. The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life, by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (Presently published as “The Three Conversions of the Spiritual Life”)
    On Amazon HERE,
Free to read or copy/print from on-line HERE.
  1. The Ordinary Path to Holiness, by R. Thomas Richard
    On Amazon HERE
 
fide said:
If you’re open to reading, I’d suggest one (or both) of two books - one more condensed and scholarly (1938), and more focussed on the “stages”; the second more contemporary (2003), written by a lay man for lay people, bringing in more dimensions of living the life of grace - but both explain the process of growing in Christ, growing in the life of grace, following the spirituality known and lived by many holy saints in our Catholic tradition. The spirituality is of a process of growth (if one indeed does grow) through three main “stages” or “ages” in the life of grace:
  1. the “purgative stage” of the Beginners,
  2. the “illuminative stage” of the Proficients,
  3. the “unitive stage” of the Perfect.
The growth in these stages,
  • from the child-in-Christ that characterizes the Beginner (who can be of any chronological age, but only a beginner in the spiritual life),
  • to the adolescent-to-young-adult-in Christ, the Proficient (who can be of any chronological age, but still not fully mature in the spiritual life),
  • to the maturity of the spiritual life, the Perfect in the unitive stage (of whatever chronological age he/she might be).
It is confusing, possibly discouraging, even leading to rejection of the whole idea, if a young person in Christ reads a saint, and concludes that this ought to describe him or her “now.” Have you ever heard an adult say “Stop acting like that! Grow up!” to a child who is merely acting like a child, after all? The “adult” is not being realistic, if he does expect mature adult behavior from a child - or even from an adolescent, for that matter. God “grows” us through stages, in life, and His ways are right and good.

The two books I’d suggest are:
  1. The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life, by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (Presently published as “The Three Conversions of the Spiritual Life”)
    On Amazon HERE,
Free to read or copy/print from on-line HERE.
  1. The Ordinary Path to Holiness, by R. Thomas Richard
    On Amazon HERE
Click to expand...
Yes, Prolifeteenager (now in your early 20’s) and others reading this thread, these two books which fide has recommended are excellent and can help you to better understand growth in the Spiritual Life. I read St. Teresa’s Interior Castle before I read the two books listed above and I found that the books fide recommended gave a clearer sense of how St. Teresa and other Saints faithfully followed God’s Plan for their Holiness.
 
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