Self perpetuating or not?

[StrawberryJam]

Was given a sermon about hell.

I found myself being evangelized by a believer.
She told me hell is self perpetuating. When I asked for her to elaborate she told me this means a person in hell can continue to sin in it, and continue to be punished. Not understanding the concept, I asked her this:
So, if a man is in hell for rape does this mean he will be able to continue raping people in hell? Will there be victims of crimes committed by people in hell? If Sally is in hell for adultery, can she be raped while there by Bob who was sent there/sent himself there for rape?
She told me that is an absolute reality of hell, that anything can happen there because Satan will be in charge of it, and will love to see the additional suffering heaped upon the people there and they all deserve what they will be getting.

So, just to be sure I asked her this:
So, if there are some Jews in hell and some Nazi’s in hell they would basically be able to go after the Jews in hell in the way they did here?
This time she looked annoyed, gave a heavy sigh and said “Of course!”
Then I asked her how she knows this.

Again, a deep sigh. A pause. Then her eyes narrowed to slits and she asked me if I had ever bothered to read the bible because, it is stated plainly there.

Then she asked where I attend church. Since she did not ask if I was a christian, and only asked where I attend church, I felt okay with giving her the name of the Catholic church I attend. Another deep sigh. Then she said, “that explains it”
She then wrote down the name of her pentecostal church and worship times and told me to get there as soon as possible, because you just never know when you will die.
I asked her why I need to go to her church when I already go to church.
A huge smile came across her face and she told me because church has to honor the word of God. Stunned, I just smiled back and thanked her for her time explaining all this to me.

Now, she may just be believing all this on her own. But, there are a myriad of problems with this type of theology IMHO. Does anyone else here believe what she does about hell?
If so, I have some questions for you.

I did some brief research on her stated beliefs, and I stumbled upon this link that was the most interesting of the ones I came across.

reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6199

In the end, I found her personal speculations unresonable. What do you think about this, and why?

 

[Trishie]

We can’t postulate much about hell. We can only speculate, which doesn’t make the speculations true.

Say you choose turn off all sources of light, you reject all light. What you have is darkness.

God doesn’t send us to hell, we choose hell if we don’t live in practical charity to others.
You may find it helpful to read Matthew 25 verses 31-46, and you will see what Jesus who is judge of souls, says about the judgement of souls. (Certainly that woman might benefit from hearing Jesus criteria for judging souls. However, by death we have already judged ourselves through the choices we have made to love or not love in practical acts of kindness.)

…and what is plain is that people have either chosen for God by living with kindness and practical charity to others, or have rejected God by refusing to live in love and kindness.

By the time we come before God we have ourselves already made that choice by our lives, so it is we who condemn ourselves to existence without the God of light and love.

To exist without the light and love and goodness of God is hell, dreadful hell, because we were made for light and love and goodness shared with God and in communion with other human beings.

That third of angels who became devils, became this because they rejected the love and light of God, without God’s life and love, they and we are ugly and miserable and have the burning absence of all good. This was the choice we made with our lives, if we chose to live without love for others on earth.

…I hope everything is going well for you

 

[StrawberryJam]

We can’t postulate much about hell. We can only speculate, which doesn’t make the speculations true.

Say you choose turn off all sources of light, you reject all light. What you have is darkness.

God doesn’t send us to hell, we choose hell if we don’t live in practical charity to others.
You may find it helpful to read Matthew 25 verses 31-46, and you will see what Jesus who is judge of souls, says about the judgement of souls

…and what is plain is that people have either chosen for God by living with kindness and practical charity to others, or have rejected God by refusing to live in love and kindness.

By the time we come before God we have ourselves already made that choice by our lives, so it is we who condemn ourselves to existence without the God of light and love.

To exist without the light and love and goodness of God is hell, dreadful hell, because we were made for light and love and goodness shared with God and in communion with other human beings.

That third of angels who became devils, became this because they rejected the love and light of God, without God’s life and love, they and we are ugly and miserable and have the burning absence of all good. This was the choice we made with our lives, if we chose to live without love for others on earth.

Dear friend,

It is the heart and soul of me that connects to Jesus with especially one point you mention here. Others too, of course.
He is best shown to those like myself by ones like yourself

I may not agree with all of the concepts yet, but I can see more of what faith means in the believer’s heart by asking these questions and getting answers from a believer that has a heart themselves.

 

[DavidFilmer]

She told me hell is self perpetuating. When I asked for her to elaborate she told me this means a person in hell can continue to sin in it, and continue to be punished.

Well, that’s one reason why I like CA forums - just when I think I’ve heard everything…

 

[JRKH]

Wow SJ,
That was some discussion I bet… Frankly I’ve never heard it expressed that way. In fact, what I have more often heard is the opposite. That which you did here would be done to you in hell.

More practically the things that gets one sent to hell, are not the particular sins, such as Rape or Murder, horrible as these are, but the defects that are behind such sins. Greed, Anger, Gluttony, Selfishness and so on.
I’ll bet you know, or have known, people so eaten up bu such “traits” that theya re never happy. Mostly this expresses it self in anger about how others are always getting more, and how they are always put upon and never have enough money…Of course they then go out and spend money they don’t have in inappropraite ways…
We recognize these people as putting themselves in their own little heel on earth by such attitudes. Now just multiply that 1000 times over. That is what their hell will be like. Such people will simply “stew in their own juices”. Anyway that’s my view on the matter.

As to your “evangelizer”, the thing that stuck out to me was this comment…“she asked me if I had ever bothered to read the bible because, it is stated plainly there”
I sure would have asked her for chapter and verse, just out of curiousity.
The other thing had to do with the lined article. I noticed that in the whole long answer there was only one bible reference (to revelation). Seems odd for something that your evangelizer says is “stated plainly”…

Peace
James

 

[Smcnic]

Hey,

As its been said we cant say anything for certain, for obvious reasons. However taking what Lucia, one of the visionaries from Fatima, said about the vision of Hell that Our Lady showed to them, I dont think that it is self-perpetuating.

“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror”

That to me seems that the souls are tortured, and not torturing each other. Also in the words of Our Lord in the Bible, he speaks about the rich man and the poor beggar at his gate. Again only torture is mentioned, not that the rich man was afflicting others.
Personally, I dont see why this woman felt that this certain piece of theology is important to the basis of faith! I mean, why would you change your religion on the grounds that one faith believes that Hell is self perpetuating or not!!!

Hopes this helps, even in the slightest

Le Meas

Seán

 

[vz71]

Then she asked where I attend church. Since she did not ask if I was a christian, and only asked where I attend church, I felt okay with giving her the name of the Catholic church I attend. Another deep sigh. Then she said, “that explains it”

I would be curious what exactly it is that she believes of the Catholic church that seems to explain so much.

 

[Pieman333272]

Hi Strawberry. This is an… interesting statement. I think there are a lot of theological problems with the human souls in hell being able to torture one another:

1. This eliminates the justice behind God’s plan for hell - hell is punishment for evil for everyone, not just those who were already the victims. In fact, this idea completely reverses hell’s purpose, giving the most evil the ability to stay evil while those least deserving further punishment than what is already upon them. This is like giving knives to people in prison for murder and putting those people in the same cell as the 14 year old in for shoplifting.
2. This gives pleasure to those who don’t deserve it - I am not saying that there is no pleasure in hell (but I wouldn’t be surprised) however, this offers a way to relieve the suffering that is actually deserved by inflicting more on one who doesn’t deserve! (This kinda boils down to #1)
3. Demon and human souls would logically be separated then, as this completely destroys the function a demon would have in hell besides suffering itself. Now, I do personally believe that the demons reside in hell, suffer themselves, and cause suffering (but not all of it) to the human souls, so you can chastise me there if you disagree.

I can’t think of more now, it’s late here, so if I find more I’ll list them out.

This person is ironically the person who made me consider Annihilationism the most since I began my studies. :bigyikes: :doh2:

 

[Newbie2]

Was given a sermon about hell.

I found myself being evangelized by a believer.
She told me hell is self perpetuating. When I asked for her to elaborate she told me this means a person in hell can continue to sin in it, and continue to be punished. Not understanding the concept, I asked her this:
So, if a man is in hell for rape does this mean he will be able to continue raping people in hell? Will there be victims of crimes committed by people in hell? If Sally is in hell for adultery, can she be raped while there by Bob who was sent there/sent himself there for rape?
She told me that is an absolute reality of hell, that anything can happen there because Satan will be in charge of it, and will love to see the additional suffering heaped upon the people there and they all deserve what they will be getting.

So, just to be sure I asked her this:
So, if there are some Jews in hell and some Nazi’s in hell they would basically be able to go after the Jews in hell in the way they did here?
This time she looked annoyed, gave a heavy sigh and said “Of course!”
Then I asked her how she knows this.

Again, a deep sigh. A pause. Then her eyes narrowed to slits and she asked me if I had ever bothered to read the bible because, it is stated plainly there. 1 Then she asked where I attend church. Since she did not ask if I was a christian, and only asked where I attend church, I felt okay with giving her the name of the Catholic church I attend. Another deep sigh. Then she said, "that explains it"2She then wrote down the name of her pentecostal church and worship times and told me to get there as soon as possible, because you just never know when you will die.
I asked her why I need to go to her church when I already go to church.
A huge smile came across her face and she told me because **church has to honor the word of God. ** 3Stunned, I just smiled back and thanked her for her time explaining all this to me.

Now, she may just be believing all this on her own. But, there are a myriad of problems with this type of theology IMHO. Does anyone else here believe what she does about hell?
If so, I have some questions for you.

I did some brief research on her stated beliefs, and I stumbled upon this link that was the most interesting of the ones I came across.

reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6199

In the end, I found her personal speculations unresonable. What do you think about this, and why?

1. Of course, it’s plainly in the Bible. “Plainly”, for many pentecostals, means their interpretation, of course.
2. “That explains it.” Catholics know nothing about the bible, Catholics “add stuff” to the bible, Catholics use the wrong bible, blah, blah, blah.

Heard it all before. Since we know nothing about the bible, how could we possibly see what’s “plainly” written there?

1. “honor the word of God”, something we Catholics do not do. No, we blindly follow the Pope who disdains scripture. Only Pentecostals really know what God is saying to us…wink, wink, nod, nod.

That’s pretty typical, methinks. In other words, certain pentecostals are free to interpret scripture any way they feel like doing, and as such can come up with some pretty wacky interpretations.

Like the one you heard.

While she has it partly correct in that “anything can happen” in hell, if she means that we really don’t know how bad it could possibly be, the “self-perpetuating” nature doesn’t make a lot of sense:

In the case of the rapist, he gets some sort of perverse pleasure out of raping someone, right? The only problem is, if hell is a place of eternal torment, pain, etc., why would Satan allow anyone to participate in any activity whereby they would receive even a scintilla of pleasure?

Another problem: Why would satan use a condemned soul to do something he could very well do himself or have one of his demons do for him? Surely most people would agree that a purely evil spirit could (in this instance of eternal rape) do a much “better” or maybe better said “effective” job of savagely torturing a lost soul than would another lost soul be able to do.

While we don’t know exactly what goes on in hell, we can be assured that it is far, far worse than we can ever imagine in our worst nightmare.