Self-Sacrifice vs Suicide

[The_Scott]

Hi.
So, with all the unrest in Egypt, a thought popped into my head. There have been (I think) about 12 cases of self-immolation (setting oneself on fire) since the riots began. I believe they all died, either from the flames themselves or from complications several days later.

Now, these cases reminded me of this infamous case of Thích Quảng Đức’s self-immolation. (you can see the picture here: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Burningmonk.jpg ; warning, though, even if this picture is famous, it is still quite graphic), where he was protesting the persecution of Buddhists under the current administration in South Vietnam. Obviously, he believed what he was doing was right - for a bigger cause.

This brings me to the question: when is taking of ones own life suicide, and when is it self-sacrifice?

To put it in more concrete terms: a man that falls on top of a grenade, during war, to save his fellow soldiers. This, I believe many of us will agree, is an act of self-sacrifice - this man took his life to save others.

 

[Alex246]

I personally believe that the line between self sacrifice and suicide is twofold: whether or not your actions directly contribute to the protection of someone (in the case of jumping on a grenade), and when the harm is not done by oneself (e.g, someone shoots you, or someone else threw the grenade). So the self immolation was suicide on both counts. Just my opinion.

 

[Victorious]

Suicide is the deliberate murder of oneself. It is an act of malice. Objectively speaking (that is, setting aside any factors that might mitigate or even completely take away guilt, like mental illness), it is a mortal sin.

If you throw yourself on a grenade to save the lives of your buddies in the foxhole, that is not an act of suicide. For one thing, you are not the agent of your own death; rather, you are being killed by the enemy who threw the grenade. By submitting to this non-self-inflicted death, you do not assume the blame for it. Plus, you are not acting out of malice, but out of charity, and in response to an urgent necessity: you are laying down your life that others might live. This, as we know from Scripture, is highly praiseworthy.

As far as the self-immolating monks are concerned, I cannot view them as being in the same league as the soldier who throws himself on a grenade. They are the agents of their own entirely needless and unnecessary deaths. Their actions are the product of beliefs that fail to place the proper value on human life, either intrinsically or in relation to other values. Objectively speaking, and setting aside all potentially mitigating circumstances in individual cases, suicide as a political statement is incredibly disordered.

 

[Willy_Jose]

How thought provoking. Just yesterday here in the Philippines, an ex-General and former high-ranking official committed suicide amidst charges of high level corruption in the military. Some quarters twisted the suicide as “an act of noblity” supposedly to protect others by a self-sacrificial act. In the face of a self-awareness of serious wrongdoing, the Christian way of course is to repent, confess, and do penance.

Those who do self-immolation for public causes might be driven by noble causes, but good intentions alone do not make an act good. There are various ways to highlight one’s cause, those which respect life without causing scandal.

The man who falls on top of the grenade however, belongs to a different category. I wouldn’t call it suicide. I believe the object of the act is protecting the life of many others with the only option available, which is self-sacrifice. This is a heroic act although I think one is under no obligation to do so.

 

[In_Spiration]

Intent is the key. Suicide entails foreknowledge and desire of death; altruistic sacrifice entails only the foreknowledge, but not the desire.

The suicide victim desires the death of himself. His very death is intended as an end or a means to an end.

The noble self-sacrificing man is one for whom his own death is never intended. He doesn’t jump on the grenade with a desire of meeting his demise; he does it with the intention of saving others. His aim is to weaken an explosion, and his means is to throw his body on top of it. The fact he’s aware of his impending doom doesn’t mean he desires it. If given the choice to miraculously survive, he would embrace it.

So what is it when a man knows with certainty both that his death will result from an act and that if he lives he will fail to save others? May he virtuously intend and will his own death? Nope. It’s never acceptable to intentionally will an evil as such, whether as an end or a necessary means. Of course, I’m not sure one would ever know with certainty that his own demise is the only means to serve some good. If it ever seems so, it’s time to humbly pray for God to intervene.

 

[Victorious]

Intent is the key. Suicide entails foreknowledge and desire of death; altruistic sacrifice entails only the foreknowledge, but not the desire.

The suicide victim desires the death of himself. His very death is intended as an end or a means to an end.

The noble self-sacrificing man is one for whom his own death is never intended. He doesn’t jump on the grenade with a desire of meeting his demise; he does it with the intention of saving others. His aim is to weaken an explosion, and his means is to throw his body on top of it. The fact he’s aware of his impending doom doesn’t mean he desires it. If given the choice to miraculously survive, he would embrace it.

So what is it when a man knows with certainty both that his death will result from an act and that if he lives he will fail to save others? May he virtuously intend and will his own death? Nope. It’s never acceptable to intentionally will an evil as such, whether as an end or a necessary means. Of course, I’m not sure one would ever know with certainty that his own demise is the only means to serve some good. If it ever seems so, it’s time to humbly pray for God to intervene.

Excellent. Very well put.

 

[The_Scott]

The noble self-sacrificing man is one for whom his own death is never intended. He doesn’t jump on the grenade with a desire of meeting his demise; he does it with the intention of saving others. His aim is to weaken an explosion, and his means is to throw his body on top of it. The fact he’s aware of his impending doom doesn’t mean he desires it. If given the choice to miraculously survive, he would embrace it.
.

Excellent post. I agree that intent is the key.

Let me use another example that many, I think, will find interesting.

There’s a man, by the name of James Stockdale who was a prisoner of war within Vietnam.
To make the story short, he was caught with papers by the guards. These papers were essentially ways to escape the camp. Now, Stockdale truly believed that, if he was tortured enough by the guards, he would confess to the names of the other prisoners participating in the escape. He knew their names, he said. He knew them, and torture would lead to him telling the guards. Of course, the guards would then gather the other prisoners and kill and/or torture them beyond imagination.

As a result, Stockdale slit his wrists with a broken window pane. If he died, then he would not tell the guards the others’ names, thus saving their lives. Stockdale was to die, in order to save the other prisoners.

Stockdale ended up surviving, however.

Now, I brought this up because Victorious said: “For one thing, you are not the agent of your own death; rather, you are being killed by the enemy who threw the grenade.”

Of course, one could say that Stockdale attempted to take his own life because he had no sane option. For the sake of argument, I believe we should assume that he was in sound mind.

He was the agent of his own death. He took the window pane and he slit his own wrists. Unlike the soldier who fell on a grenade, Stockdale make the actions to cut himself. Just like the soldier above , however, he did it to save the lives of others.

I personally believe it was an attempt of self-sacrifice, because Stockdale knew that his will wasn’t strong enough to keep the information inside him. What do you all think?

EDIT: He wrote Thoughts of a Philosophical Fighter Pilot, where I got the above information. I would describe his philosophical believes as a mix of Stoicism and Dualism.

 

[Victorious]

I personally believe it was an attempt of self-sacrifice, because Stockdale knew that his will wasn’t strong enough to keep the information inside him. What do you all think?

Elsewhere on this forum, I have trumpeted the principle that you cannot do evil in order to achieve good. I have also stated that when you have reached a point where you can only bring about a good result by committing a sin, you have at that point exhausted human resources and must turn in trust to God.

In view of the foregoing, I do not think self-destruction is the Christian response to a situation like Stockdale’s. It is not the same as throwing oneself on a grenade. Throwing oneself on a grenade is a self-sacrificing response to an immediate and dire threat; as someone has pointed out, the intention is not to bring about one’s own death (though one knows that death will certainly ensue), but to save lives. In the other scenario, one deliberately kills oneself in order to avoid a remote contingency (as opposed to an immediate certainty). The act may be well-intentioned, but it is nevertheless misguided.

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus knew full well his journey to Jerusalem would end with His execution. Many others had suffered the same fate. He was justified because He believed submitting to injustice would liberate mankind from evil.

We are expected to follow His example but we have to use our judgment. Would our death be the only possible way of achieving our goal? If we are utterly convinced that it is, that it is the least evil and that no one else can or will replace us we are justified in obeying our conscience.

 

[In_Spiration]

The_Scott,

Elsewhere on this forum, I have trumpeted the principle that you cannot do evil in order to achieve good. I have also stated that when you have reached a point where you can only bring about a good result by committing a sin, you have at that point exhausted human resources and must turn in trust to God.

In view of the foregoing, I do not think self-destruction is the Christian response to a situation like Stockdale’s. It is not the same as throwing oneself on a grenade. Throwing oneself on a grenade is a self-sacrificing response to an immediate and dire threat; as someone has pointed out, the intention is not to bring about one’s own death (though one knows that death will certainly ensue), but to save lives. In the other scenario, one deliberately kills oneself in order to avoid a remote contingency (as opposed to an immediate certainty). The act may be well-intentioned, but it is nevertheless misguided.

This.

tonyrey,

tonyrey:

Would our death be the only possible way of achieving our goal? If we are utterly convinced that it is, that it is the least evil and that no one else can or will replace us we are justified in obeying our conscience.

Depends what you mean here by “obeying our conscience*.” If the conscience guides one toward his intentional death, then that’s wrong. If it guides one toward some intentional act x (an act that will unavoidably but accidentally result in death), then the act is not essentially suicide.

*Side note: Of course, one’s always obligated to obey his conscience and never positively act against it. So in that sense, at least, a man is always “justified” in following the dictates of his conscience. The action may be wrong nonetheless, if his conscience is in error, but the minimal necessity of conscientiousness can’t be lacking in a good act.

 

[You]

I always thought that the sin or the crime if you will in suicide was the sin of despair.
No greater love can any man have than to lay down his life for his friends.
Conversely suicide is the final act in the loss of hope, and the act is deprived of love.

 

[tonyrey]

Depends what you mean here by “obeying our conscience*.” If the conscience guides one toward his intentional death, then that’s wrong. If it guides one toward some intentional act x (an act that will unavoidably but accidentally result in death), then the act is not essentially suicide.

*Side note: Of course, one’s always obligated to obey his conscience and never positively act against it. So in that sense, at least, a man is always “justified” in following the dictates of his conscience. The action may be wrong nonetheless, if his conscience is in error, but the minimal necessity of conscientiousness can’t be lacking in a good act.

The action may be wrong and the conscience may be in error but the decision may still be justified!

 

[LogisticsBranch]

This brings me to the question: when is taking of ones own life suicide, and when is it self-sacrifice?

To put it in more concrete terms: a man that falls on top of a grenade, during war, to save his fellow soldiers. This, I believe many of us will agree, is an act of self-sacrifice - this man took his life to save others.

Hello Scott. There is a big difference between an act of heroism verses suicide.

**The National Institute of Mental Health **has this to say about suicide:

*Suicide is the eleventh most common cause of death in the United States. People may consider suicide when they are hopeless and can’t see any other solution to their problems. Often it’s related to serious depression, alcohol or substance abuse, or a major stressful event.

We can People who have the highest risk of suicide are white men, though women and teens report more suicide attempts. If someone talks about suicide, you should take it seriously. Urge them to get help from their doctor or the emergency room, or call 911.

Therapy and medicines can help most people who have suicidal thoughts. Treating mental illnesses and substance abuse can reduce the risk of suicide.*
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/suicide.html

Another act of heroism would be police officers that risk their life on a daily basis.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Hello Scott. There is a big difference between an act of heroism verses suicide.

**The National Institute of Mental Health **has this to say about suicide:

*Suicide is the eleventh most common cause of death in the United States. People may consider suicide when they are hopeless and can’t see any other solution to their problems. Often it’s related to serious depression, alcohol or substance abuse, or a major stressful event.

People who have the highest risk of suicide are white men, though women and teens report more suicide attempts. If someone talks about suicide, you should take it seriously. Urge them to get help from their doctor or the emergency room, or call 911.

Therapy and medicines can help most people who have suicidal thoughts. Treating mental illnesses and substance abuse can reduce the risk of suicide.
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/suicide.html

Another act of heroism would be police officers that risk their life on a daily basis.

Made an admendment to the previous posting. Also made mention of it here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7468221#post7468221