Self Sacrifice

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Sparkythedog

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A hypothetical question about self sacrifice:

Suppose a proposition existed that all the souls tormented in Hell could be released to Heaven if you would sacrifice your own eternal happiness in Heaven and take their place in Hell. Would you make that deal?

(Yes, I know this is not part of your theology, that’s why it’s hypothetical. So please don’t respond with - “it’s not possible”)
 
It would be unjust to go to Hell for someone else. One of God’s primary attributes is justice, so yeah, people would end up in Heaven that ought not be there and yeah!!!..that would be Hell!

:eek::mad:😊:confused::banghead: :nope:
 
No, any soul in Hell is there of his own accord. God gave us this freedom to chose Him or ourselves so that we CAN love if we did not have freewill how could we will the good of others (love)? The gift of freedom that God granted us is loving so why would I go against His will?
 
And so god would send this person, who is so loving as to sacrifice their own eternal happiness for the sake of others, to hell?

I don’t like the sound of this “god”.
 
Hypotheticals aside…the premise is all wrong.
Sorry. Not something a Catholic could participate in. As one poster said, hell is a total rejection of God.
Nope. Sorry no way.
God desires that we choose Him. Choose holiness.
 
I would go to Hell, Michigan, to save someone else :):)🙂

But that’s about it.

ICXC NIKA
 
I heard that’s one of the tests at Seminary. Lot of guys bail out at this juncture. I knew a guy who struggled very hard because he really wanted to be a Priest… but he just couldn’t do it… he fought it… but couldn’t do it… took a serious toll on him really… now more than 50 years later he claims he’s a “born again pagan”…

That’s why I said I’m not sure because a part of me wants really bad to be able to say yes yes yes of course… but the realist in me knows that I am a weakling. “The spirit is strong but the flesh is weak.”

Thank God there’s a purgatory. That makes much more sense. Still be an extremely hard decision. Especially if they ask while you’re in there…
 
migueltojose said:
I heard that’s one of the tests at Seminary. Lot of guys bail out at this juncture. I knew a guy who struggled very hard because he really wanted to be a Priest… but he just couldn’t do it… …
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I really doubt that. Would have to see proof. Why would anyone ask that? It’s just dumb, with all due respect.
 
A hypothetical answer should be yes.

That would be the ultimate self-sacrifice, ultimate love.
Jesus would come, froze the hell and took you with Him to heaven.

The hell would be no more.
 
Sparkythedog said:
A hypothetical question about self sacrifice:

Suppose a proposition existed that all the souls tormented in Hell could be released to Heaven if you would sacrifice your own eternal happiness in Heaven and take their place in Hell. Would you make that deal?

(Yes, I know this is not part of your theology, that’s why it’s hypothetical. So please don’t respond with - “it’s not possible”)
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My first, emotional reaction would be to say “yes” - that is, if one views Hell purely as torture chamber, and the souls there as prisoners. But then, when thinking about it, the offer somehow conflicts with my view on Hell:
  1. All the souls there chose Hell for themselves, out of their own free will,
  2. For many (if not for all of them), being in Heaven, in direct presence of God, would cause even more suffering, than being separated from Him.
  3. God could have emptied Hell (probably by violating the free will of the souls there), if He wanted so. If he doesn’t do this, being the ultimate Love, Truth and Justice - what makes me think I’m allowed to judge? It would be pride, nothing less.
So, with all these considerations, I don’t think I would be able to agree to this offer wholeheartedly.
 
Sparkythedog said:
…(Yes, I know this is not part of your theology, that’s why it’s hypothetical. So please don’t respond with - “it’s not possible”)
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With all due respect, the fact that is it not possible cannot be ignored. Even hypotheticals have to have some sense in which they could be true before consideration of them even makes sense. It is like asking “What if God were evil?”. There is no reason why anyone should try to answer that question unless he thought there was some possibility that God might be evil. Otherwise any answers given would have absolutely no relevance to anything that is true. I assume that you had some reason for asking this question. Was it just to provoke doubt in what Catholics do believe? If so, it failed in that regard, because the question has no relevance to what Catholics believe. Was it to explore the consequences of Catholic belief? Again, your question is irrelevant. I really don’t know why anyone would be interested in or feel the need to respond to such a hypothetical.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
With all due respect, the fact that is it not possible cannot be ignored. Even hypotheticals have to have some sense in which they could be true before consideration of them even makes sense. It is like asking “What if God were evil?”. There is no reason why anyone should try to answer that question unless he thought there was some possibility that God might be evil. Otherwise any answers given would have absolutely no relevance to anything that is true. I assume that you had some reason for asking this question. Was it just to provoke doubt in what Catholics do believe? If so, it failed in that regard, because the question has no relevance to what Catholics believe. Was it to explore the consequences of Catholic belief? Again, your question is irrelevant. I really don’t know why anyone would be interested in or feel the need to respond to such a hypothetical.
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My purpose was not to pass a judgement on God. In this hypothetical, I’m assuming two things which comply fully with Catholic teaching:
  1. There are people suffering in Hell of their own accord. God did not send them there - they sent themselves.
  2. That there are people experiencing the beatific vision in Heaven.
The part that doesn’t comport to reality (Catholic teaching) is that a way exists to allow all in Hell to experience the beatific vision if you freely decide to endure eternal torment.

My motives are to learn about people’s views of self sacrifice, not to get people to question or leave their religion.
 
God is perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. If I were to override that with my own justice and Mercy I would deserve hell. However, the person who was released in my stead would not have freely chosen heaven. So 🤷 What an illogical proposition!

I think it would be odd if anyone struggled with this at all. It would signify incomplete theological and logical thinking.
 
Sparkythedog said:
The part that doesn’t comport to reality (Catholic teaching) is that a way exists to allow all in Hell to experience the beatific vision if you freely decide to endure eternal torment.
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Not only doesn’t it exist. It doesn’t even make sense.
My motives are to learn about people’s views of self sacrifice, not to get people to question or leave their religion.
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Just to entertain your premise one would have to contemplate the possibility that God would ban you from heaven just because you did a noble thing. That makes God out to look very unjust, which I think was your real motive. Because if you merely wanted to explore people’s views of self-sacrifice, you would ask about sacrificing their mortal lives to save souls from hell. That at least is conceivable, and more than that, it has been done by many martyrs of the Church.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Just to entertain your premise one would have to contemplate the possibility that God would ban you from heaven just because you did a noble thing. That makes God out to look very unjust, which I think was your real motive. Because if you merely wanted to explore people’s views of self-sacrifice, you would ask about sacrificing their mortal lives to save souls from hell. That at least is conceivable, and more than that, it has been done by many martyrs of the Church.
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Do you call me a liar? I’ve already said what my motive is for this thread. I have no desire to denigrate your God here. My interest is true self sacrifice.

To your last point. It would be trivial to give up temporal things to save others knowing that I would spend eternity in bliss. That is hardly a sacrifice, in my opinion. I’m interested in knowing if someone would give up the one thing that is eternal in order to alleviate the suffering of others.

I’m not making a judgment call on God or talking about the free will of those in Hell. I’m only interested in your choice if that situation were ever presented.
 
Sparkythedog said:
Do you call me a liar? I’ve already said what my motive is for this thread. I have no desire to denigrate your God here. My interest is true self sacrifice.

To your last point. It would be trivial to give up temporal things to save others knowing that I would spend eternity in bliss. That is hardly a sacrifice, in my opinion. I’m interested in knowing if someone would give up the one thing that is eternal in order to alleviate the suffering of others.

I’m not making a judgment call on God or talking about the free will of those in Hell. I’m only interested in your choice if that situation were ever presented.
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Motive aside, the premise for the thread is theologically ignorant and not logical with critical thinking.🤷
 
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