Seminarian Homily

[Two_of_Clubs]

I attended a Mass today in which a seminarian (not the celebrant priest) gave the homily. The priest performed the entirety of the consecration, however. Nevertheless, I wanted to know if the mass was valid.

It might help if someone could point out what exactly invalidates a mass. What are the key things that make the Mass valid or invalid? It’s getting difficult for me to determine whether I’ve fulfilled my Sunday obligations with all these liturgical abuses, such as the one I’ve mentioned, becoming so common.

 

[Gorgias]

I attended a Mass today in which a seminarian (not the celebrant priest) gave the homily. The priest performed the entirety of the consecration, however. Nevertheless, I wanted to know if the mass was valid.

Yes, the Mass is valid.

Is it possible that the priest said a few words, which constituted the ‘homily’, and the seminarian provided a reflection? (It would still be highly irregular but, strictly speaking, licit.)

It might help if someone could point out what exactly invalidates a mass. What are the key things that make the Mass valid or invalid? It’s getting difficult for me to determine whether I’ve fulfilled my Sunday obligations with all these liturgical abuses, such as the one I’ve mentioned, becoming so common.

You went to a Mass on Sunday, which you (in good conscience) believed would be a legitimate Catholic Mass. You’ve fulfilled your ‘Sunday obligation’. Be at peace.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Any chance the seminarian had already been ordained a deacon? And even if not, the Mass would not, as noted, been invalid.

 

[GEddie]

There is no requirement for a homily per se to have a valid Mass. So if Fr. decided to let a student speak instead, that would not make the Mass invalid.

IIUC.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Neofight]

It’s getting difficult for me to determine whether I’ve fulfilled my Sunday obligations with all these liturgical abuses, such as the one I’ve mentioned, becoming so common.

Dear OP,

What i have to say is not directed at you, but the Church today in general.

Really? Exactly what are “all these liturgical abuses” we have witnessed or been victim of?

What has become of our Church when Sunday after Sunday how a priest celebrates Mass is questioned or doubted, especially when it happens so frequently on Catholic website.

Are those who enjoy the Mass without thumbing through a rulebook with a scorecard or evaluation sheet handy a thing of the past?

 

[Allegra]

I’ve seen this done before lots of times and the seminarian could already be a deacon anyway. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe the Mass was illicit. Either way, it was valid, and even if it hadn’t been, you would have filled your Sunday obligation by attempting to attend a valid Mass.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Dear OP,

What i have to say is not directed at you, but the Church today in general.

Really? Exactly what are “all these liturgical abuses” we have witnessed or been victim of?

What has become of our Church when Sunday after Sunday how a priest celebrates Mass is questioned or doubted, especially when it happens so frequently on Catholic website.

Are those who enjoy the Mass without thumbing through a rulebook with a scorecard or evaluation sheet handy a thing of the past?

Thank you for saying this!

Some people have lost sight of why they are at Mass and what is happening there.

I’ve joked to a friend that someone needs to come up with an app where people can check off everything that happens during Mass and then give the priest a report card when they’re leaving. It would make the Mass totally meaningless to the user since it would have no relationship to prayer or worship, but it would allow them to play liturgical police all the better.

 

[pianistclare]

Thank you for saying this!

Some people have lost sight of why they are at Mass and what is happening there.

I’ve joked to a friend that someone needs to come up with an app where people can check off everything that happens during Mass and then give the priest a report card when they’re leaving. It would make the Mass totally meaningless to the user since it would have no relationship to prayer or worship, but it would allow them to play liturgical police all the better.

+2

 

[InThePew]

For what it’s worth (and for others’ future reference), it takes quite a bit to invalidate a mass and so, if you’re ever in doubt as to whether the mass was valid, the answer is almost always “yes”.

 

[Two_of_Clubs]

… even if it hadn’t been, you would have filled your Sunday obligation by attempting to attend a valid Mass.

I just have one question about this. It’s a different story if I’m ignorant of what should happen at Mass. However, albeit not fully, I’m pretty informed. Once I’m aware of the Mass being invalid, isn’t it my responsibility to seek out another Mass or else fall into mortal sin?

It seems to me that you’re suggesting that my attempt is sufficient to fulfill the obligation despite the Mass being invalid. (If it were, in fact, invalid)

 

[Two_of_Clubs]

Yes, the Mass is valid.
Is it possible that the priest said a few words, which constituted the ‘homily’, and the seminarian provided a reflection?

Not in the slightest. After reading the Gospel, the priest sat down, and not one word crossed his lips until the Nicene Creed.

 

[TheDoctor]

I attended a Mass today in which a seminarian (not the celebrant priest) gave the homily. The priest performed the entirety of the consecration, however. Nevertheless, I wanted to know if the mass was valid.

The Mass was valid. Who gives or does not give the Homily has no bearing on the validity of the Mass.

It might help if someone could point out what exactly invalidates a mass. What are the key things that make the Mass valid or invalid?

It is my understanding that as long as the consecration is valid, the Mass is valid. It might be illicit if there were abuses, but it would still be valid. In a similar way, if everything was done go the letter of the GIRM but the consecration was invalid, the Mass would be invalid.

If you know with certainty that the consecration was invalid (e.g. the gifts were Rye bread and grape Kool-aid) you should try to find another Mass. If you can’t (say you were at the last mass on Sunday) there is no sin as you did not intend to attend an invalid Mass. Likewise, if you don’t know for certain the Mass is invalid there is no sin.

 

[TheDoctor]

Thank you for saying this!

Some people have lost sight of why they are at Mass and what is happening there.

I’ve joked to a friend that someone needs to come up with an app where people can check off everything that happens during Mass and then give the priest a report card when they’re leaving. It would make the Mass totally meaningless to the user since it would have no relationship to prayer or worship, but it would allow them to play liturgical police all the better.

+3

“Hey Catholics - want to concentrate more on what may be going wrong with others rather than focusing on the miracle on the altar? There’s an app for THAT!”

 

[Gorgias]

I just have one question about this. It’s a different story if I’m ignorant of what should happen at Mass. However, albeit not fully, I’m pretty informed. Once I’m aware of the Mass being invalid

However, the Mass you attended is not ‘invalid’. So, since your “if” clause isn’t true, then you can’t infer anything about your ‘then’ clause.

, isn’t it my responsibility to seek out another Mass or else fall into mortal sin?

But, you haven’t found an invalid Mass. So, you’re still all good.

It seems to me that you’re suggesting that my attempt is sufficient to fulfill the obligation despite the Mass being invalid. (If it were, in fact, invalid)

If you got there and found out that no one was attempting to celebrate a ‘valid Mass’, then you might have a point. However, that’s not what you found.

 

[Gorgias]

Not in the slightest. After reading the Gospel, the priest sat down, and not one word crossed his lips until the Nicene Creed.

OK. So, by that description, the seminarian wasn’t a deacon who was assisting at Mass?

 

[PrayPsalm51]

It’s not uncommon for a Seminarian that is not yet a decacon to offer a reflection. Typically it is announced as such but not always. These young men need practice speaking if they are to be good homilists some day. As others have said it’s likely that he’s a transitional deacon-whether or not he assisted at Mass. Hopefully he said something in his reflection which is of use to you the rest of this week!

 

[Gorgias]

These young men need practice speaking if they are to be good homilists some day.

Be that as it may, homilies are required at Sunday Mass. Therefore, there must be a deacon or priest who preaches the homily. (If the seminarian was a deacon, assisting at Mass, then (by rights) he should have proclaimed the Gospel.) If he could not proclaim the Gospel, then he should not be preaching at a Sunday Mass.

A ‘reflection’ at a daily Mass – at which a homily is not (strictly speaking) required – is another matter entirely. A seminarian should still not give a reflection that confuses the faithful into thinking that he’s preaching a homily.

Nevertheless, even if an (unordained) seminarian preached on Sunday, that would not imply that the Mass was ‘invalid’.

(p.s., seminarians get practice speaking in a variety of contexts, not the least of which include their classes in homiletics and the Masses that they preach while they are transitional deacons. )

 

[pnewton]

Are those who enjoy the Mass without thumbing through a rulebook with a scorecard or evaluation sheet handy a thing of the past?

I have found the claims of abuse to be quite encouraging. In this case we have an abuse that promotes priestly vocations? When I see that the worst deviations are really pretty neat, I think we have come a long way.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s getting difficult for me to determine whether I’ve fulfilled my Sunday obligations with all these liturgical abuses, such as the one I’ve mentioned, becoming so common.

The obligation to attend Mass is not fulfilled based on what the priest did or didn’t do.

You intended to go to Mass and worship. You made the effort and showed up. You are not under obligation to find the perfect Mass. Your obligation is to show up and worship.

If you did your part then the obligation is fulfilled. What the priest does or doesn’t do, or whether the building burned down for that matter, is not in your control.

-Tim-

 

[R_H_Benson]

I attended a Mass today in which a seminarian (not the celebrant priest) gave the homily. The priest performed the entirety of the consecration, however. Nevertheless, I wanted to know if the mass was valid.

It might help if someone could point out what exactly invalidates a mass. What are the key things that make the Mass valid or invalid? It’s getting difficult for me to determine whether I’ve fulfilled my Sunday obligations with all these liturgical abuses, such as the one I’ve mentioned, becoming so common.

Try to find a different parish to attend, or perhaps attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form (if available) where there tends to be no abuses/deviations from the rubrics.

As others have pointed out, if the seminarian in question was a deacon, he would be the homilist. Even if he was not a deacon, while the act of him preaching a homily would be illicit, it would not invalidate the Mass. The proper matter, intention of the priest, and words of institution pronounced at the consecration are the minimal requirements for a valid Mass. Regardless, isn’t it so sad that in many parishes Our Lord is given the “bare minimum” for validity with liturgical abuses littering the rest of the Mass.