Seminarian Homily

[zab]

Try to find a different parish to attend, or perhaps attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form (if available) where there tends to be no abuses/deviations from the rubrics.

As others have pointed out, if the seminarian in question was a deacon, he would be the homilist. Even if he was not a deacon, while the act of him preaching a homily would be illicit, it would not invalidate the Mass. The proper matter, intention of the priest, and words of institution pronounced at the consecration are the minimal requirements for a valid Mass. Regardless, isn’t it so sad that in many parishes Our Lord is given the “bare minimum” for validity with liturgical abuses littering the rest of the Mass.

If all of our faithful devout parishioners would have left our parish years ago when our parish was moderate with a sympathy toward women who wanted to lead, our parish would probably never have made it to what it is today- one of the most faithful parishes in the diocese with the largest number of altar servers- all boys- usually about 8 serving a Sunday Mass and five at daily Mass. Instead during that difficult time, they stayed and continued to attend daily Mass and devotions of praying the rosary and visiting the Blessed Sacrament, and First Friday of Reparation. Pray for your pastor and parishioners when you think that they may not be doing as well as they should. But also realize, dear reader, that sometimes you could be mistaken about some things.
P. S. It also could be beneficial to develop a devotion to worship Jesus in those places where he is neglected. Don’t be one of those who leave Him too.

 

[pianistclare]

If all of our faithful devout parishioners would have left our parish years ago when our parish was moderate with a sympathy toward women who wanted to lead, our parish would probably never have made it to what it is today- one of the most faithful parishes in the diocese with the largest number of altar servers- all boys- usually about 8 serving a Sunday Mass and five at daily Mass. Instead during that difficult time, they stayed and continued to attend daily Mass and devotions of praying the rosary and visiting the Blessed Sacrament, and First Friday of Reparation. Pray for your pastor and parishioners when you think that they may not be doing as well as they should. But also realize, dear reader, that sometimes you could be mistaken about some things.
P. S. It also could be beneficial to develop a devotion to worship Jesus in those places where he is neglected. Don’t be one of those who leave Him too.

Well stated.

 

[R_H_Benson]

If all of our faithful devout parishioners would have left our parish years ago when our parish was moderate with a sympathy toward women who wanted to lead, our parish would probably never have made it to what it is today- one of the most faithful parishes in the diocese with the largest number of altar servers- all boys- usually about 8 serving a Sunday Mass and five at daily Mass. Instead during that difficult time, they stayed and continued to attend daily Mass and devotions of praying the rosary and visiting the Blessed Sacrament, and First Friday of Reparation. Pray for your pastor and parishioners when you think that they may not be doing as well as they should. But also realize, dear reader, that sometimes you could be mistaken about some things.
P. S. It also could be beneficial to develop a devotion to worship Jesus in those places where he is neglected. Don’t be one of those who leave Him too.

You make some very good points. Devotion to Our Lady in the rosary and to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament are essential for a parish to thrive. However, I would venture that if a pastor was offering First Friday Masses of Reparation, that parish was never in as much trouble as you make it out to be. You are truly blessed to have such an option, as it is such a beautiful way to console Our Lord who suffers so many indignities and offenses from our indifferences.

Even so, if the OP feels he/she is not being spiritually nourished at his/her current parish because of liturgical abuses, he/she is under no obligation to stay there.

 

[R_H_Benson]

P. S. It also could be beneficial to develop a devotion to worship Jesus in those places where he is neglected. Don’t be one of those who leave Him too.

It is unfair to accuse someone of leaving a parish because of liturgical abuse for a parish where the Lord is glorified with reverence and dignity of being “one of those who leave Him too”. Because that simply isn’t the case. It may be a practice of heroic virtue to remain at an irreverent parish and console Our Lord there where He is neglected, but one who chooses to go elsewhere to assist at Mass and receive the Sacraments can not be held at fault for doing so.

 

[zab]

You make some very good points. Devotion to Our Lady in the rosary and to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament are essential for a parish to thrive. However, I would venture that if a pastor was offering First Friday Masses of Reparation, that parish was never in as much trouble as you make it out to be. You are truly blessed to have such an option, as it is such a beautiful way to console Our Lord who suffers so many indignities and offenses from our indifferences.

Even so, if the OP feels he/she is not being spiritually nourished at his/her current parish, he/she is under no obligation to stay there.

As I stated, it was a moderate parish. The pastor at that time, allowed an inquiring group of parishioners to start up Perpetual Adoration and to begin the practice of the Holy Hour of Reparation that had been discontinued from previous decades. The pastor even took a late Thursday nightFriday morning hour. But he was sympathetic and partial to some women who had interest in being a deacon at that time. Eventually the Diaconate program was postponed for a while. Because there were so few boys serving at that time, only a handful, and we even had adult senior citizens altar serving, these women got permission from to go into the school and invited girls to be altar servers because there were only a handful of boys serving at that time. No one was inviting boys or instructing them at that time. It is totally different today. The next pastor that came along, took more interest in instructing the altar servers and inviting boys to serve. The girls that were serving were allowed to continue but he spoke to them and their parents telling them why he thought that altar servers should be boys only. Most understood. A couple of the girls continued until they moved on to college or wherever. We haven’t had girls serving for about 20 years. But this just goes to show you the power of prayer, even with a difficult pastor who said “yes” to Perpetual Adoration.

 

[zab]

It is unfair to accuse someone of leaving a parish because of liturgical abuse for a parish where the Lord is glorified with reverence and dignity of being “one of those who leave Him too”. Because that simply isn’t the case. It may be a practice of heroic virtue to remain at an irreverent parish and console Our Lord there where He is neglected, but one who chooses to go elsewhere to assist at Mass and receive the Sacraments can not be held at fault for doing so.

Like it or not, it is not unfair to urge people to not be “one of those who leave Him too” in those places where is neglected or forgotten. What is unfair is your implication that I assigned fault to someone who chooses to go elsewhere to assist at Mass. I simply urged people to stay.

 

[porthos11]

I think an answer is still required of the OP about the burning question:

Was the seminarian already ordained a deacon?

Without that answer, and the moral principle that we are always to interpret the uncertain in the most favourable light, we may have to make that assumption of both the priest and homilist.

 

[R_H_Benson]

P. S. It also could be beneficial to develop a devotion to worship Jesus in those places where he is neglected. Don’t be one of those who leave Him too.

Sounds like an imperative statement.

Like it or not, it is not unfair to urge people to not be “one of those who leave Him too” in those places where is neglected or forgotten. **What is unfair is your implication that I assigned fault to someone who chooses to go elsewhere to assist at Mass. ** I simply urged people to stay.

Your statement implies that those who choose to leave for another parish are guilty of being “one of those who leave Him too”.

 

[pnewton]

It is unfair to accuse someone of leaving a parish because of liturgical abuse for a parish where the Lord is glorified with reverence and dignity of being “one of those who leave Him too”.

My parish is better than your parish? (I would even say it is Extraordinary!)

I guess if some one needs to have more* feelings *then, that is okay for a while. I say feelings, because in less you are God, you cannot know the hearts of other worshipers. Eventually though, I would hope that eventually the objective reality of the Mass would be sufficient.

 

[tawny]

Thank you for saying this!

Some people have lost sight of why they are at Mass and what is happening there.

I’ve joked to a friend that someone needs to come up with an app where people can check off everything that happens during Mass and then give the priest a report card when they’re leaving. It would make the Mass totally meaningless to the user since it would have no relationship to prayer or worship, but it would allow them to play liturgical police all the better.

Well stated.

 

[tawny]

Dear OP,

What i have to say is not directed at you, but the Church today in general.

Really? Exactly what are “all these liturgical abuses” we have witnessed or been victim of?

What has become of our Church when Sunday after Sunday how a priest celebrates Mass is questioned or doubted, especially when it happens so frequently on Catholic website.

Are those who enjoy the Mass without thumbing through a rulebook with a scorecard or evaluation sheet handy a thing of the past?

 

[R_H_Benson]

My parish is better than your parish? (I would even say it is Extraordinary!)

I guess if some one needs to have more* feelings *then, that is okay for a while. I say feelings, because in less you are God, you cannot know the hearts of other worshipers. Eventually though, I would hope that eventually the objective reality of the Mass would be sufficient.

I suggested that the OP was in his/her rights to change parishes if he/she found the liturgical abuses to be spiritual inhibiting. I made no claim to know the heart of anyone. The objective reality of the Mass IS sufficient. The intrinsic worth of every Mass is infinite. My question has always been why mere sufficiency is the standard amongst many posters here and those of us who seek for anything more than that (for example a Mass that is offered reverently in accordance with the rubrics) are accused of snobbery.

 

[pnewton]

My question has always been why mere sufficiency is the standard amongst many posters here and those of us who seek for anything more than that …

The problem stems from the assumption of “more”. What is it more of, that does not pit one form of the Mass against another, or one rite against another?

 

[R_H_Benson]

The problem stems from the assumption of “more”. What is it more of, that does not pit one form of the Mass against another, or one rite against another?

I am not speaking of EF vs. OF here. I am speaking of the fact that every valid Mass is infinitely meritorious. In that regard, even the most liturgically abused of Masses is equal in merit to the most solemn of Masses. My issue is with the idea that we should be content with “suffciency” as if the only important aspect is validity and everything else like reverence, obedience to the rubrics, etc. is considered exceptional when it should be the norm.

 

[dans0622]

As noted several times, this problem does not call the validity of the Mass into question. For the sake of information, here is a definitive word on the topic of seminarians/homily:

…the practice, on some occasions, of entrusting the preaching of the homily to seminarians or theology students who are not clerics is not permitted. Indeed, the homily should not be regarded as a training for some future ministry.

All previous norms which may have admitted the non-ordained faithful to preaching the homily during the Holy Eucharist are to be considered abrogated by canon 767, § 1.

§ 2. A form of instruction designed to promote a greater understanding of the liturgy, including personal testimonies, or the celebration of eucharistic liturgies on special occasions (e.g. day of the Seminary, day of the sick etc.) is lawful, (if) in harmony with liturgical norms, should such be considered objectively opportune as a means of explicating the regular homily preached by the celebrant priest. Nonetheless, these testimonies or explanations may not be such so as to assume a character which could be confused with the homily. (Ecclesia de mysterio, article 3) vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Dan

 

[Gorgias]

My question has always been why mere sufficiency is the standard amongst many posters here

Because the question is always phrased in terms of ‘validity’ or ‘obligation’; therefore, the correct answer is phrased in terms of ‘sufficiency’…

and those of us who seek for anything more than that (for example a Mass that is offered reverently in accordance with the rubrics) are accused of snobbery.

I’m guessing it’s because your answer (“go find another parish”) is in response to questions about validity, not questions about finding an uplifting Mass.

 

[pianistclare]

The problem stems from the assumption of “more”. What is it more of, that does not pit one form of the Mass against another, or one rite against another?

Correct. And I believe it was only a few short days ago that one of the Mods here on CAF re-stated that it is categorically FORBIDDEN to pit one form against another.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Because the question is always phrased in terms of ‘validity’ or ‘obligation’; therefore, the correct answer is phrased in terms of ‘sufficiency’…

I understand that. I am more so lamenting that many have been lulled into thinking it is normal to expect only the bare minimum of “sufficiency”. Is that universally the case? Of course not.

I’m guessing it’s because your answer (“go find another parish”) is in response to questions about validity, not questions about finding an uplifting Mass.

I simply put forth that option for the OP’s consideration. Valid Mass or not, if the liturgical abuse is spiritually inhibiting him/her, I wanted to let him/her know that he/she has that option. This is, after all, a discussion board where people post different ideas and opinions in the spirit of helping one another come closer to Our Lord.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Correct. And I believe it was only a few short days ago that one of the Mods here on CAF re-stated that it is categorically FORBIDDEN to pit one form against another.

If anyone here is under the impression that I am in anyway trying to pit the two forms of Holy Mass in the Roman Rite against one another I am truly sorry as this is in no way my intention.

 

[zab]

Sounds like an imperative statement.

Your statement implies that those who choose to leave for another parish are guilty of being “one of those who leave Him too”.

There is no such implication in my post. I suppose you could take it that way if you neglect to take into consideration the the first part of my post, " **It also could be beneficial **to develop a devotion to worship Jesus in those places where he is neglected." I have already made the clarification that I was only urging people to stay, not judging them for choosing to leave.