Seminarian saying Gospel and Homily

[Flint]

Your first posting:

It’s not a who cares attitude. Seminarians at an advanced level of study are more than capable of giving a homily. It isn’t as if it goes against the Tradition, the sacred teachings, the deposit of Faith. It may go against some modern legalistic Roman Catholic code. It’s not something that puts anyone in immediate danger of hurting their soul, unless the homilist preaches heresy.

Your second posting:

Excuse me, excuse me, I didn’t realize he read the Gospel. That is a no no. Who are you to judge me? There is more to Christianity than knowing the canon law.

First you in essence say it dosen’t matter if we follow the Church or not by setting-up the half baked argument of if it dosen’t put “anyone in immediate danger of hurting their soul” then it’s OK. You are wrong about that. That’s not only faulty reasoning, it’s pernicious as well.

Next you suggest that you were not aware that we were talking about the Gospels. Preaching by the non-ordained is at least as serious of a violation as proclaiming the Gospels. In the history of the Church there are have been ordained priests were were not allowed to preach, but none that I know who were not allowed to proclaim the Gospels.

I didn’t judge anyone. I was pointing out that you were trying to sell a viewpoint that runs contrary to the Church’s instructions.

This has nothing at all to do with canon law.

 

[mgy100]

It’s not worth arguing. Look, you’ve got a lot to learn alot. Like I said there is alot more to Christianity than knowing canon law. What about acts of charity, feeding the poor, instead of playing armchair canon lawyer and being upset because a seminarian said a homily. i’m trying to sell compassion and love and forgiveness, some keys to Christianity. The church will not self-destruct if a seminarian gave a homily. The church will self-destruct when people don’t live out the Gospels and only seek to find the zen parish, harp on every man-made small tradition and shun economia.

 

[Brian_C]

Love and compassion are great. But lack of discipline and responsibility are not.

 

[palmas85]

I’ll throw in my two cents worth about the sermon or the homily. Nine out of ten times they don’t have them for daily Mass and I don’t think any one feels truly deprived. We could also do without them on Sundays as well most of the time. We as Catholics seem to be drifting more and more into a Protestant mindset where the sermon is the central part of the service. It is NOT now and never has been the central part of the Catholic Mass, the Consecration is.

The Mass does not need the sermon oh excuse me the homily, because we have the Consecration, the greatest miracle of all.

Sorry,thats just the plain truth and I think deep down everybody here knows it.

 

[Brendan]

Mgy,

I think I see where the problem is. I don’t think that you recognize thar Obedience is also part of the Gospel.

It is!

It’s bad enough when the laity pick and choose what parts of the Gospel they ‘want’ to live out.

It is especially bad when we see it in the clergy.

So yes, we do get particularly discouraged when we see clergy not living up to their vows and the Gospel.

If you review my post above, you will see that it is God’s command, articulated in Vatican I, that we obey the Holy See in both matters of Faith and of discipline.

That is the Gospel, to obey God in all things.

 

[TimOliv]

Time out. Before we go blasting the priest without all of the facts there are some things to consider.

First of all, there is not always a 4th year of seminary. If he is studying in Rome, he is most likely undergoing a 3 year course of study. That being said…

He was wearing an alb, was he wearing a stole of any sort?

As to the homily, it is not unheard of for a seminarian to give a talk. This is not a homily. While on Sundays homilies are required, the proper form would dictate that the priest would deliver a homily at the appropriate time, and after mass the seminarian (or other lay person) would speak.

I have seen it done, however, that a priest simply introduces the speaker in a way which ties in to the Gospel reading then turns over hte pulpit to the guest. (There is no prescribed length for a homily). I’ve seen this done by many many religious priests so if it is a liturgical abuse (which it does not appear to be according to the GIRM) then it is one that is very well established in religious orders of varying levels of strictness and at the Diocesan level.

 

[TimOliv]

It is also worth noting that Pastoral years take place at different times. Our Diocese (used to) have seminarians complete their pastoral year in between minor and major seminary.

Our order has seminarians spend every weekend from day one of formation in a parish as well as a good chunk of summers, and there is no “pastoral year.” So let’s all stop talking so matter-of-factly about this pastoral year, please, it is not something written in stone as to when (if at all) it takes place.

My point in all of this is that we do not have enough information to determine that he was NOT a transitional deacon at the time. The deacon who mentioned he was not ordained could have been referring to his Ordination to the Priesthood, not the Diaconate.

 

[Brendan]

Time out. Before we go blasting the priest without all of the facts there are some things to consider.

First of all, there is not always a 4th year of seminary. If he is studying in Rome, he is most likely undergoing a 3 year course of study. That being said…

He was wearing an alb, was he wearing a stole of any sort?

Those were some of this forst questions we asked in this thread.

We’ve already determined from the OP that the seminarian was NOT wearing either a daolmatic or a stole, but simply an alb.

We have also determined that the seminarian both read the Gospel AND gave a ‘homily’ right after the Gospel, not as a reflection after Mass.

 

[TimOliv]

Those were some of this forst questions we asked in this thread.

We’ve already determined from the OP that the seminarian was NOT wearing either a daolmatic or a stole, but simply an alb.

We have also determined that the seminarian both read the Gospel AND gave a ‘homily’ right after the Gospel, not as a reflection after Mass.

How was this determined, exactly?

The OP said that the Deacon was not wearing “anything like the priest” just “an alb,”

That statement to me definitely throws out the possibility of a Dalmatic, but I see no indication there was no stole either.

What I am telling you is that everyone loves jumping in saying how “wrong” this priest is, when we are only getting a partial glimpse of the picture and we are getting it second hand.

 

[Brendan]

I asked the OP if the person in question was wearing either something like what the priest was wearing ( which would be the dalmatic) or a stole (which I described)

I then when on to say

If he is just wearing a while alb, or perhaps a black cassock and white surplice, then he is not ordained and should NOT be reading the Gospel or giving the Homily.

The OP confirmed that the seminarian was wearing “just an alb”

Also, if the seminarian is, in fact, a deacon, he should be reading the Gospel at each Mass, for this the correct time for him to gain experience doing so.

The OP indicated that this was an unusual event.

 

[Brendan]

. The deacon who mentioned he was not ordained could have been referring to his Ordination to the Priesthood, not the Diaconate.

I find that point to be dubious at best.

Since the parish knows the man is a seminarian, and nobody is calling him ‘Father’, it would seem pretty clear that he has not been Ordained to the Presbyteriate.

Under the same vein, we can also rule out Epsicopal Orders.

So what Order could the OP have been refering to when he spoke to the Deacon?

We do have Logic courses in Diaconal Formation too

 

[turtleoompa]

Ok everyone I’m back. To clarify things from my original thread. This seminarian is in his 7th year. He is definately not ordained as a deacon or anything else. He has 9 more months with our parish following Father around. Then he will go back to another state and receive his transitory deacon and then hopefully become a priest in another year. This seminarian was up on the altar with Father the whole Mass. He wore a white robe(alb). When it came to the Gospel, Father stood up and blessed him. Father sat down and watched while the seminarian said the Gospel and did the entire homily. During the consecration, he stood off to the side and watched, he did not say or do anything. Any other questions? There are many more things that my parish is doing that concerns me and I have written a Monseignor concerning these possible abuses.

 

[lak611]

I’ll throw in my two cents worth about the sermon or the homily. Nine out of ten times they don’t have them for daily Mass and I don’t think any one feels truly deprived. We could also do without them on Sundays as well most of the time. We as Catholics seem to be drifting more and more into a Protestant mindset where the sermon is the central part of the service. It is NOT now and never has been the central part of the Catholic Mass, the Consecration is.

The Mass does not need the sermon oh excuse me the homily, because we have the Consecration, the greatest miracle of all.

Sorry,thats just the plain truth and I think deep down everybody here knows it.

Even the TLM always has a sermon at Sunday Mass. (I said sermon because the Missal calls it sermon, not homily.)

 

[mgy100]

Mgy,

I think I see where the problem is. I don’t think that you recognize thar Obedience is also part of the Gospel.

It is!

It’s bad enough when the laity pick and choose what parts of the Gospel they ‘want’ to live out.

It is especially bad when we see it in the clergy.

So yes, we do get particularly discouraged when we see clergy not living up to their vows and the Gospel.

If you review my post above, you will see that it is God’s command, articulated in Vatican I, that we obey the Holy See in both matters of Faith and of discipline.

That is the Gospel, to obey God in all things.

]

It is charitable to judge me on obiedience when you don’t even know me. Perhaps arming yourself with the BASIC principles of Christianity should be our priorities, not being self-appointed Canon lawyers, armchair judges.
Tell me, what is the Deposit of Faith? tell me what that is.

 

[TimOliv]

]

It is charitable to judge me on obiedience when you don’t even know me. Perhaps arming yourself with the BASIC principles of Christianity should be our priorities, not being self-appointed Canon lawyers, armchair judges.
Tell me, what is the Deposit of Faith? tell me what that is.

While I do not support Liturgical Abuses, I have to say, when one is alleged on these boards people do seem to jump on the accused pretty fast and immediately talk about how wrong they were.

But what troubles me most is how, before the OP even clarified the situation (confirming the person was wearing an alb without a stole) everyone had already “concluded” that the seminarian was not a transitional deacon based upon very little information from the OP.

Let’s put this in the context of our secular (or tent-making if you will) jobs. All of my Accountant Brothers and Sisters out there, would you audit a company and conclude your investigation after looking at one ledger? Do we have any Doctors or Nurses around here? If I tell you I have a pain in my side will you just recommend I have my appendix removed?

And I’m sorry, Brendan, the opening posts said nothing about a stole. So you’ll forgive me if I question the quality of your “Logic” courses in your formation if they teach you to presuppose and draw conclusion without fact.

We all know that no lay person, no matter their education, should be proclaiming the Gospel or offering the Homily. That’s just the way it goes. If the priest in question did permit a lay person to proclaim the Gospel and offer a Homily, I’d say he committed a Liturgical Abuse and pretty much wanted to be caught, as I can see no way he didn’t expect it to get back to the Chancery. Were I to witness such an event, I would contact the appropriate Episcopal Vicar at the Chancery and simply report what I have seen. This is no longer at the parish level as it concerns a Diocesan Seminarian. With any luck, there will be some sort of action taken and the Seminarian will be ordained without the idea that Liturgical Abuses are OK.

 

[Brendan]

]

It is charitable to judge me on obiedience when you don’t even know me.

Could you please point out exactly where I rendered a judgement on your obedience?

Perhaps arming yourself with the BASIC principles of Christianity should be our priorities, not being self-appointed Canon lawyers, armchair judges.

Obedience IS a Basic principle of Christianity

Tell me, what is the Deposit of Faith? tell me what that is.

The Depost of Faith is All that Christ revealed to the Apostles, either written in Scripture, orally or by example. The Deposit of Faith is preserved, in it’s entirety, by the Holy Spirit and articulated, intact, by the Holy Magisterium, either in its Ordinary capicity, or Extra-Ordinarily.

In the Great Commission (when Christ told the Apostles exactly what the Church is to do and to be)

All authority heaven and on earth has been given unto me. Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: for I am with you always, even unto the end of the world

Obedience is at the very heart of what the Church is, by the command of God.

And again, that command was articulated and clarified in Pastor Aeturnus (which is an artiuclation of the Deposit of Faith via the Extra Ordinary Magisterium)

. We don’t get to obey just the things we want, but ALL the teachings and disciplines of the Church.

To do less is to deny the Gospel and the very words of Christ.

 

[Brendan]

Mgy,

I think I see where the problem is. I don’t think that you recognize thar Obedience is also part of the Gospel.

It is!

It’s bad enough when the laity pick and choose what parts of the Gospel they ‘want’ to live out.

It is especially bad when we see it in the clergy.

So yes, we do get particularly discouraged when we see clergy not living up to their vows and the Gospel.

If you review my post above, you will see that it is God’s command, articulated in Vatican I, that we obey the Holy See in both matters of Faith and of discipline.

That is the Gospel, to obey God in all things.