Seminarians & the TLM

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OliverP

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Hi all, I was just wondering if any of you knew about seminaries in England. Specifically, do they teach seminarians the extraordinary form of the mass?

I heard from my priest that at least two seminarians were kicked out of the seminary because they were too “tridentine”, which I find worrying since I think seminarians should know how to perform this rite.
 
It wouldn’t surprise me. If I were to have a priestly vocation (already married so I’m guessing I don’t lol) but I wouldn’t even consider diocesan seminaries anymore. They have been hotbeds for homosexuality and liberal/modernist scandal. I know some people might take offense by this comment, and that’s not my intention. I am only speaking of what is now becoming common knowledge. I would only consider a seminary from a TLM community such as the FSSP, ICKSP/ICSRP, SSPX, etc.
 
Our local seminarians are allowed to learn the EF.
It should go without saying that if you intended to be a diocesan priest you have to be willing to spend 90-95% of your time saying the OF mass. As a servant of the diocese, your duty is to do what the diocese needs you to do. That might mean being assigned to a parish with no EF and no desire for EF masses. Even when diocesean priests are at tradition-leaning parishes in tradition-leaning dioceses, there is still likely to only be 1 or 2 EF masses a week/month.

My parish is such a parish, our priests spend most of their time saying very reverent OF masses with a good bit of Latin and chanted propers. We have EF masses once or twice a week depending.

If this doesn’t sound appealing to you, perhaps you need to discern other religious communities dedicated to the EF (that are in communion with Rome).
 
If at the same time, the seminarian or “seminarian to be” expresses an interest in learning other languages in order to better minister to the Catholics, then it might be received differently by the superior, bishop or who is responsible.
 
HeDa said:
If at the same time, the seminarian or “seminarian to be” expresses an interest in learning other languages in order to better minister to the Catholics, then it might be received differently by the superior, bishop or who is responsible.
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Even with languages, your seminary is not going to send you off to learn how to speak Korean unless there is a need in the diocese for Korean speaking priests.

It all comes back to the needs of the diocese.

In my diocese, for instance, we have a growing EF mass contingent and an even larger contingent looking for reverent OF masses with some Latin and chant. We, therefore, have a need for priests who can say the EF. If we didn’t, I doubt that my bishop would allocate the funds for training in EF despite the fact that he loves the EF himself.
 
Seminaries throughout the English speaking world (I’ve never encountered any real division between EF and OF in non-English speaking countries oddly enough) are now beginning to encounter seminarians who refuse to participate in the OF. It is not that they are prohibited from participating in the EF, but the seminarians must accept that the OF is the norm for most Catholics. They must be open to celebrating the OF for their parishioners, no matter their personal preference. If they refuse to participate in OF or even if they just refuse to acknowledge the equal legitimacy of the OF, the Bishop cannot allow them to be ordained because they would be required to perform these duties in their ministry. They cannot have priests who place conditions on their Bishop about what ministries they will or will not execute. It inherently opposes their promise of obedience at ordination.
 
Seminaries and bishops are all over the board on this question.

Some seminaries teach both OF and EF as part of their formation. Some will allow their students to learn the EF. Others will squash any known efforts.

Any bishop is going to want you to say the OF. It’s as simple as that. Some will encourage you to learn the EF. Others will allow it. Some, however, will ask you during the discernment period whether you would be willing to say the EF, and if you answer yes, you will not be accepted as a seminarian.

You’ll have to find information about your specific bishop and find out which seminaries are used by the diocese. Then, you will be able to clear answers.
 
Thank you all for your replies, great stuff!

I am fully on board with learning mass in the OF. My city only has one church that does the EF mass, so it is predominantly OF. I have never attended an EF myself (sadly), but I would like the option of learning it if I do (God willing) enter the seminary. From what I know, my Bishop is friendly towards the EF. I could be wrong, but that is the impression I got. I’m guessing the two cases I heard of, where the seminarians were given the boot, were because they were EF only people, which is fair enough but probably more suited to something like FSSP and ICTKR.

If asked, I will simply tell the truth; that I have never attended an EF mass but that I am open to learning it. Lying my way through doesn’t feel right. If that isn’t a satisfactory answer then we will come to that as and when.

I asked this question because on the syllabus the seminary only says that it teaches the liturgy, but doesn’t specify if it is OF only or both OF and EF. I guess we shall wait and see.

Thanks again for your answers. Pray for me +
 
OliverP said:
I asked this question because on the syllabus the seminary only says that it teaches the liturgy, but doesn’t specify if it is OF only or both OF and EF. I guess we shall wait and see.
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Liturgy is only one part of the program of priestly formation and shouldn’t be confused with liturgical practicum (learning to celebrate mass) which is what you’re interested in.

Any seminary will teach liturgy in the sense of the scriptural origins, theological developments and doctrines that have shaped the rituals, prayers and Sacraments of the
Church over the centuries, as well as some of the key developments/changes especially focusing on Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium. Mass practicum itself is normally taught after ordination as a deacon. Whether you learn the EF, in part up to your bishop, but also the seminary formation staff - those whom your bishop has entrusted with teaching his seminarians. While any priest can learn/celebrate the EF without his bishop’s permission, for seminarians, the key concern of any seminary is ensuring that the learn the OF with the result that most seminaries simply do not have the time to teach the EF nor is the demand for it (for the people of God) sufficient to justify the extra time / resources.

As far as attitudes to the EF go generally, their is a wariness amongst (some) bishops and seminary staff because of past experiences with students who were too inflexible in their attitudes and also (especially amongst older priests) because of their own (negative) experiences of the EF in the past. That said, seminarians get the boot (or leave of their own accord)for a whole variety of reasons both justified and unjustified and both public and private.

Finally, I’d also add that while celebrating mass is obviously a fundamental part of priestly ministry and identity, at the same time it also only makes a a very small proportion of priestly ministry.
 
JHFamily said:
Some, however, will ask you during the discernment period whether you would be willing to say the EF, and if you answer yes, you will not be accepted as a seminarian.
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Which would be an incredibly unjust thing for a bishop to do, if that is the only reason a man doesn’t get accepted to the seminary.
 
I go to a FSSP parish and the priests are awesome. They can both give an awesome homily and I am really happy to be part of the parish. I’ll still occasionally go to a diocesan parish but the homily is always pretty bland :confused:
 
CTBcin said:
Which would be an incredibly unjust thing for a bishop to do, if that is the only reason a man doesn’t get accepted to the seminary.
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It is amazingly unjust, but twice in our diocese (i.e. we have ItwoI young men that assert this), the interview with the bishop abruptly ended with, “The extraordinary form is divisive, and I will not accept any candidate for the seminary that is willing to say this Mass.” Then, they were shown the door. By the way, probably the best priest in the diocese right now is a young, respectful man that says both the OF and EF.
 
ProudPapa1988 said:
It wouldn’t surprise me. If I were to have a priestly vocation (already married so I’m guessing I don’t lol) but I wouldn’t even consider diocesan seminaries anymore. They have been hotbeds for homosexuality and liberal/modernist scandal. I know some people might take offense by this comment, and that’s not my intention. I am only speaking of what is now becoming common knowledge. I would only consider a seminary from a TLM community such as the FSSP, ICKSP/ICSRP, SSPX, etc.
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Not ALL Seminaries are ran by heretical forces.

Many are still very orthodox.

And no matter how bad the local diocese is, the SSPX is not the answer until they are willing to come back into full union with the Church like the founding members of FSSP did.

God Bless
 
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CRM_Brother said:
Seminaries throughout the English speaking world (I’ve never encountered any real division between EF and OF in non-English speaking countries oddly enough) are now beginning to encounter seminarians who refuse to participate in the OF. It is not that they are prohibited from participating in the EF, but the seminarians must accept that the OF is the norm for most Catholics. They must be open to celebrating the OF for their parishioners, no matter their personal preference. If they refuse to participate in OF or even if they just refuse to acknowledge the equal legitimacy of the OF, the Bishop cannot allow them to be ordained because they would be required to perform these duties in their ministry. They cannot have priests who place conditions on their Bishop about what ministries they will or will not execute. It inherently opposes their promise of obedience at ordination.
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While I agree this is an issue, I beleive this is really a small minority, as most Seminarians who truly feel this way would lean towards the FSSP.

I think most of the time it is a perception that the seminarian inadvertently creates for himself when at orthodox seminaries.

When at seminaries with heterodox formation faculty, then it’s more often the formation faculty purging the orthodox & traditionally minded priests who will fight heresy, esp the sexual sin.
 
I would ask you to refrain from using the term ‘heterodox’ when speaking about those who pimarily celebrate OF. ‘Heterodox’ refers to doctrine and dogma and in no way refers to discipline. I have met just as many heterodox, also know as those who practise heresy, in both the EF and the OF communities.
phil19034 said:
orthodox & traditionally minded priests who will fight heresy
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Again, orthodoxy and being mindful of Tradition is not a trait which is only associated with priests who practise the EF. The EF seminarians who had been expelled from diocesan seminaries which I have come into contact with were actually less adherant to doctrine than a number of the OF seminarians and typically held somewhat radical views which were not in line with Catholic doctrine or dogma. This is why they were expelled, not because they were EF in the first place. The EF reasoning is many times just an excuse for the seminarian in question to feel self-righteous. There are always other reasons.
 
There are some aspirants to seminary wherein their “preference” toward the EF is actually disdain and complete contempt for the OF. They wouldn’t introduce themselves that way necessarily, but it would come about in a thorough interview. That would disqualify them from the priesthood, if for no other reason than the bishop would likely have to question their capacity for obedience, since necessity would demand faithful celebration of the OF more frequently.
 
CRM_Brother said:
I would ask you to refrain from using the term ‘heterodox’ when speaking about those who pimarily celebrate OF. ‘Heterodox’ refers to doctrine and dogma and in no way refers to discipline. I have met just as many heterodox, also know as those who practise heresy, in both the EF and the OF communities.
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phil19034:
orthodox & traditionally minded priests who will fight heresy
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Again, orthodoxy and being mindful of Tradition is not a trait which is only associated with priests who practise the EF. The EF seminarians who had been expelled from diocesan seminaries which I have come into contact with were actually less adherant to doctrine than a number of the OF seminarians and typically held somewhat radical views which were not in line with Catholic doctrine or dogma. This is why they were expelled, not because they were EF in the first place. The EF reasoning is many times just an excuse for the seminarian in question to feel self-righteous. There are always other reasons.
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Hello Brother,

I think you misunderstood my post, because I totally agree, 100% with what you are saying here.

The heterodoxy I was referring to are those clergy who are against the Church’s teaching on sexuality. Not the OF.

I actually love a well done OF mass, with some Latin prayers, chant, incense, candle barriers, etc much better than a EF high mass. And I don’t really care for the EF Low Mass.

So, yes, I agree with you. To me, the best “traditional” priestly order are the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius - because they do BOTH the EF and OF. If I was a bishop, I would invite them to my diocese before the FSSP (who I also have respect for).

God Bless
 
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Cor_ad_Cor said:
There are some aspirants to seminary wherein their “preference” toward the EF is actually disdain and complete contempt for the OF. They wouldn’t introduce themselves that way necessarily, but it would come about in a thorough interview. That would disqualify them from the priesthood, if for no other reason than the bishop would likely have to question their capacity for obedience, since necessity would demand faithful celebration of the OF more frequently.
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Right. That’s why I usually remain somewhat skeptical when I hear people cry foul about things like “the bishop expels traditional seminarians”, etc. There’s usually more to the story. That being said, it’s a scary thought that there may be some bishops out there who would refuse to accept normal, well-ordered men to the seminary simply because they have an interest in possibly learning/saying the EF.
 
I sure would hope so.
If I went into the seminary that’s the first I’d want to learn.
 
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