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Abba
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Don’t worry thistle, I am not holding my breath. I know you will not find it.
Happy New Year!
Abba
Seminaries: Are theological explanations for wandering souls being taught at seminaries?
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Happy New Year!
Abba
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fred_conty
Guest
There is a book called “Get Me Out Of Here”. In the book there are various stories of people from purgatory coming in a vision to the author asking for her prayers. She claims to have talked to them about other people as well. I don’t know if they would be called “wandering” but certainly hurting for prayers.
She also said that the best prayer to pray is the Holy Mass and offering the Mass personally with the priest for their intentions.
It has been a while since I have read the book but I seem to remember very vagly that there was a person who seemed to come and go from time to time.
It was an interesting book and sounded authentic, but did not have an imprimatur. This may be something you might want to read. It was very interesting and difficult to put down once started.
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Vico
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Going back to your post #12, you answered:
Well, in what I have presented above, I am referring to possession by demons and human souls, and souls who are not at peace. I don’t see any contradiction of this with Catholic theology but a lack of explanation.
So there are four ideas of who might possess:
- demon (fallen angel)
- human soul in hell
- human soul in purgatory
- human soul in heaven
The “unclean spirit,” in Mt 12:43-45, is a demon, a fallen angel, not a human soul.
I have to think you mean a human soul in hell when you say wandering souls.
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Abba
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What is this about?
Words are important because we don’t make these things up as we go along. To rationalists it may seem so, but, this is not the case at all. I much rather make up my own words and phrases (as I tend to do) then to use a word that leaves the meaning or usage unclear. Speaking of which, this is what I would call Systematic Spirituality. It is foundational as it is founded in Christ and builds up and it is coherent as it must fit in with everything else; the teachings of the Church, Sacred Scripture, etc…
I agree, I think in the whole of the New Testament it is referring to demons. I don’t know if you want to claim that I stated otherwise or why you are even quoting Matthews. But, whatever.
In an atmosphere less aggressive and more conducive to learning, I would bring up Elijah and the reference of some ancients to the Pope as having the ‘spirit’ of Peter. But, I wrapping up this thread.
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Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said saints possess, but, they do leave their ‘place’ (if you will, but, not their ‘state’ as the souls in hell and purgatory). I don’t know of anyone nor have I heard any account nor deduced that the saints can or do possess human beings. This is not to say it cannot be (consider the Holy Spirit and Jesus), but, it is to say I do not know and cannot affirm nor deny it at this point if ever. I have learned that they appear (e.g. account by Gregory the Great), can be smelled (Padre Pio), speak on their own, and can perform miracles. To put it in other words, I am saying that from heaven, hell or purgatory; souls can leave their ‘place’ or be present in the world without leaving their state (heaven, hell or purgatory).
Words are important because we don’t make these things up as we go along. To rationalists it may seem so, but, this is not the case at all. I much rather make up my own words and phrases (as I tend to do) then to use a word that leaves the meaning or usage unclear. Speaking of which, this is what I would call Systematic Spirituality. It is foundational as it is founded in Christ and builds up and it is coherent as it must fit in with everything else; the teachings of the Church, Sacred Scripture, etc…
I agree, I think in the whole of the New Testament it is referring to demons. I don’t know if you want to claim that I stated otherwise or why you are even quoting Matthews. But, whatever.
In an atmosphere less aggressive and more conducive to learning, I would bring up Elijah and the reference of some ancients to the Pope as having the ‘spirit’ of Peter. But, I wrapping up this thread.
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Abba
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Hello Fred, 
One of the priests I know taught me “There is nothing like a Mass” and that there are souls in purgatory on account of a situation with a possession of theirs (something left buried, something that continues to harm which they created etc…). But, even a Mass or Masses may not help them, something with the material stuff needs to be done (unbury, destroy etc…). There is an ancient account of a monk, who appeared to a fellow monk (I think this happened in Spain) to the surprise of the monk who thought the other must have gone straight to heaven. Yet, the other monk said he was suffering in purgatory because of a painting he did prior to becoming a monk. The painting was leaning to porn and did harm and continued to. The monk asked his friend monk to find it and destroy it so he could get out of purgatory.
May you and yours have a blessed and peaceful 2017,
Abba
I had never heard of her before. Thank you for sharing. I found this, youtube.com/watch?v=s0YegJwlsCY
Yes, this is so true. In a link I provided on this thread (mysticsofthechurch.com/2012/04/amazing-stories-from-purgatory-and.html ) there is an account of two priests who became good friends in the seminary and promised each other that whoever would die last would pray for the salvation of the one who died first. When one of them died the one that remained prayed a lot for the priest. But, one day, the priest appeared to him and told him he was not keeping his promise as he had not requested a Mass etc… In the Dominican Republic there is a saying of when the answer to a question is definate ‘yes’ (like asking children if they want to go to the ice cream parlor) someone may say: Dead do you want a Mass? Muerto quiere Misa? - the answer is a for sure: yes.
One of the priests I know taught me “There is nothing like a Mass” and that there are souls in purgatory on account of a situation with a possession of theirs (something left buried, something that continues to harm which they created etc…). But, even a Mass or Masses may not help them, something with the material stuff needs to be done (unbury, destroy etc…). There is an ancient account of a monk, who appeared to a fellow monk (I think this happened in Spain) to the surprise of the monk who thought the other must have gone straight to heaven. Yet, the other monk said he was suffering in purgatory because of a painting he did prior to becoming a monk. The painting was leaning to porn and did harm and continued to. The monk asked his friend monk to find it and destroy it so he could get out of purgatory.
I will read it. It does have an imprimatur: womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=23059
May you and yours have a blessed and peaceful 2017,
Abba
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Vico
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I was asking to understand what you intended when you said “demons and human souls, and souls who are not at peace”.
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Abba
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That possession of a human being who is currently alive in the world may occur (given all the requirements of course) by a demon or the soul of a human being which is in hell or purgatory. Insofar as the souls from hell, I am not sure what their story is for being able to possess. But, at least the one I encountered enjoyed women, alcohol, and cigarettes. Maybe damned souls are allowed to be present as payment for something or/and are present to harm but get to enjoy some things they liked when sinners on earth.
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Vico
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Thank you for the clarification. I have to say, though, that souls in purgatory are not damned so would not do evil. They are ones that died in a state of grace. They are loosing their attachments to creatures.That possession of a human being who is currently alive in the world may occur (given all the requirements of course) by a demon or the soul of a human being which is in hell or purgatory. Insofar as the souls from hell, I am not sure what their story is for being able to possess. But, at least the one I encountered enjoyed women, alcohol, and cigarettes. Maybe damned souls are allowed to be present as payment for something or/and are present to harm but get to enjoy some things they liked when sinners on earth.
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Abba
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I did not say the ones in purgatory are damned.
It seems for every sentence I write I have to write an explanation because you are claiming to misunderstand.
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Vico
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What needed clarification is if you really mean what you stated that possession of a human being is possible by the soul of a human being in purgatory. You said in post #67: “That possession of a human being who is currently alive in the world may occur (given all the requirements of course) by a demon or the soul of a human being which is in hell or purgatory”
Possession is evil and those in purgatory do not do evil.
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Abba
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Possession of a demon/s is evil because the demon is evil and a possession that is unwelcomed is evil because it is disrespecting the body of a person. When Jesus manifest Himself in a priest this is a form of possession but it is holy because it is Jesus and it is also a welcomed possession. We also say that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is in us and it is welcomed.
I was just reading an interview of the exorcist Father Amorph and he says that he has encountered demons pretending to be souls. But, there are exorcists that say they have encountered actual soul possessing. Amorph thinks that the jury is out and it is a job for the theologians to look into the matter of life after death.
I Googled the topic in french because a french exorcist is quoted in a book who states he has experienced souls possessing and wanted to learn more. I came upon a french Catholic forum where people have discussed and explored this topic and with no aggression. Even a priest participated in the discussion. There they bring up Pope Benedict’s Spe Salvi 47 where he states that we do not know how long the passage of death takes. And of course, they quote the theologian and exorcist Padre Fortea. docteurangelique.forumactif.com/t9283-des-exorcistes-confirment-l-existence-des-ames-errantes
The jury is out on human souls possessing be they from hell or purgatory; but, those from purgatory or heaven appearing although not declared in a council is accepted by the Church. It’s true that the faithful are not obliged to believe private revelations, Lourdes, Fatima, Padre Pio, Saint Faustina etc… but, in my ignorance and all; I consider one of the steps to canonization is to be given a nihil obstat. Meaning that what the person has said (e.g. Padre Pio and Saint Faustina) is not against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Certainly, a heretic would not be canonized. But, what have Padre Pio and Saint Faustina shared regarding the souls in purgatory? They have both stated that souls from purgatory have appeared and spoken with them. So, indirectly, we know that souls appearing is not against the teachings of the Church and is not in conflict with the teaching that souls are judged after death. How do we make sense of this apparent conflict? This is why people wonder how long the passage of death takes, that journey for which we take the viaticum.
I think that when a person approaches a priest to tell him a recently deceased person appeared the thing to do is to recommend a Mass be given. Not to deny such a thing could happen. I don’t think this is controversial and should be taught in seminaries. Now, regarding possession of souls from hell or purgatory - the Church needs to look into it and is. Insofar as to the possession I witnessed, two of the spirits seemed to me to be human souls but, spiritually it is not as though I could make a clear distinction. Firstly, I have nothing to compare it to, I have not had the experience of a possession by exclusive demons to compare it to but, most of all I could only sense so much because of their coldness and their condition but two of them did appeared to me to be human souls this is the reason I started my little research.
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Vico
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It is certain teaching that those in purgatory are free from mortal sin and cannot change that state after death. That means that they will not do evil through posession.
Collins Dictionary definition of posession, noun is:
4 the state of being controlled or dominated by or as if by evil spirits
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Abba
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Where did I state otherwise?
Where have I stated otherwise?
Hold on tight to that definition by Collins.
In a post some pages ago you stated: "I have not drawn any conclusion but seek to know what the Church teaches.’ But, you pretend to know more than the Chruch what she teaches and are here to rebuttal under the pretext of ‘learning.’
Again, since you know so much, I recommend you conduct your own research.
Peace.
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Vico
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Only responding to your post where you wrote the following, (because the jury is not out regarding souls in purgatory): “The jury is out on human souls possessing be they from hell or purgatory; but, those from purgatory or heaven appearing although not declared in a council is accepted by the Church.”
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Abba
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Why, because God died and left you in charge? So, the priests that have in their ministry working with souls from purgatory who sometimes possess are heretics? What should we do with them? Burn them at the stakes?
So, now you don’t have a problem with souls from hell possessing? Yet, it is a given? You learn by stepping over people and not giving credit and pretend you knew it all along?
Btw, I never hired you as my editor. The Grammarly program is switching the word to possession it seems to like the ss. You don’t get points for that, as a matter of fact - you haven’t earned any - just negative, negative, negative.
Oh, that block button. I have never used it before but it looks quite tempting.
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Vico
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Do you understand now why I posted?Why, because God died and left you in charge? So, the priests that have in their ministry working with souls from purgatory who sometimes possess are heretics? What should we do with them? Burn them at the stakes?
So, now you don’t have a problem with souls from hell possessing? Yet, it is a given? You learn by stepping over people and not giving credit and pretend you knew it all along?
Btw, I never hired you as my editor. The Grammarly program is switching the word to possession it seems to like the ss. You don’t get points for that, as a matter of fact - you haven’t earned any - just negative, negative, negative.
Oh, that block button. I have never used it before but it looks quite tempting.
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