Seminary Problems Go Way Back?

[koda]

I’m reading Father Andrew Greeley’s autobio that was published back in the late 80s. He talks about being in the seminary back in the 40s (I think) and how there was a lot of homosexuality even among the teacher preists; that there was almost a club of these active gays and how evil the atmosphere was. He also says that these same people were reall big into woman bashing (figurative) - the woman is the root of all evil mindset.

I converted to Catholicism in 1990 and the first I heard of the sex scandal was in the mid 90’s I think. Does anybody remember hearing about it earlier? Also, any comments on Father Greeley’s experiences.

Thanks.

 

[cheddarsox]

Sex is something that happens when you get people together in close circumstances. It is not a problem particular to the Catholic priesthood or seminaries. Improper sexual activity should not be tolerated, but neither should the occurance of such cause one to lose faith. Sexual misbehavior, and the making of excuses to justify it are human problems, not Catholic or priestly problems.

The pope is currently addressing this situation, so apparently it does occur and is known about, and the church is taking it seriously.

There are stories all throughout history in both Catholic and non Catholic institutions of similar goings on. It is not a new phenomenon.

cheddar

 

[snoopy]

koda:

I’m reading Father Andrew Greeley’s autobio that was published back in the late 80s. He talks about being in the seminary back in the 40s (I think) and how there was a lot of homosexuality even among the teacher preists; that there was almost a club of these active gays and how evil the atmosphere was. He also says that these same people were reall big into woman bashing (figurative) - the woman is the root of all evil mindset.

I converted to Catholicism in 1990 and the first I heard of the sex scandal was in the mid 90’s I think. Does anybody remember hearing about it earlier? Also, any comments on Father Greeley’s experiences.

Thanks.

I first heard about Father James Porter molesting boys in the Bemidji area around 1985. I couldn’t believe it and thought it was an isolated incident and we would never hear about it happening again. Boy was I wrong!!! I know alot of people who almost lost their faith because of how the church handled the criminal acts and how they did not protect the victims. Too many lives were destroyed. I remember thinking that if the heirarchy could cover up rape, then what would stop them from covering up murder.I know I have changed. I question things alot more now.

 

[miguel]

snoopy:

…I know I have changed. I question things alot more now.

Good. We can’t let it ruin our faith IN GOD and in the AUTHENTIC teachings of HIS CHURCH as found in the CCC. If we put our faith in men, we’re setting ourselves up for a big disappointment. Judas was a member of the original twelve, and he is alive and well today. And Jesus himself warned us about this, with his parable of the weeds and the wheat.

 

[Steven_Merten]

cheddarsox:

Sex is something that happens when you get people together in close circumstances. It is not a problem particular to the Catholic priesthood or seminaries. Improper sexual activity should not be tolerated, but neither should the occurance of such cause one to lose faith. Sexual misbehavior, and the making of excuses to justify it are human problems, not Catholic or priestly problems.

The pope is currently addressing this situation, so apparently it does occur and is known about, and the church is taking it seriously.

There are stories all throughout history in both Catholic and non Catholic institutions of similar goings on. It is not a new phenomenon.

cheddar

Hello cheddarsox,

It is evil wickedness of the cover up which is the “Catholic priestly problem”! America was not shocked by the fact that a priest would molest a child. America was shocked that bishops, (and we do not have confirmed denial from Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict), knew about such horrible crimes committed against our children and yet they simply moved sexual preditors from one unsuspecting group of victims to the next. This is the real horror of the scandal.

Had bishops protected our children from sexual preditor priests, when they gained knowledge of them, there would be no scandal. America knows that these types of evil sexual preditors exist even in priests. What is totally unacceptable to America is for Church leaders to have full knowledge that they have a sexual predetor priest preying on our children and yet they secretly keep that preditor in contact with our children. This is the unacceptable abomination of the scadal.

I do agree with you though. Do not loose faith in God due to the evil actions of Popes, Bishops and Priests.

 

[EtienneGilson]

Often it is the espoused position of various traditionalist and sede vacantist groups that the sexual abuse problem grew out of the second Vatican council.

The John Jay report’s information on the birth and ordination dates of priest-abusers indicates that no such correlation exists but in the minds of those who wish to discredit the post-conciliar Church.

usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/cleric3.pdf

Also, many conservative Catholics like to blame homosexuality, modernism and liberalism for the sexual abuse problems when infact no such correlation has been established

ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005d/120905/120905i.htm

The very fact that these statistics and information are from the often maligned Fr. Andrew Greeley is likely enough to have many people discredit them off-hand and simply avoid the fact.

 

[fix]

EtienneGilson:

Often it is the espoused position of various traditionalist and sede vacantist groups that the sexual abuse problem grew out of the second Vatican council.

The John Jay report’s information on the birth and ordination dates of priest-abusers indicates that no such correlation exists but in the minds of those who wish to discredit the post-conciliar Church.

Are not most the cases found to be in the 1960s-80s? While these abusers may have been in the priesthood before 1962, I would think it reasonable to conclude the atmosphere of the times, sexual revolution, and the misinterpretation of VII gave occasion for many to act out in a way they previously would not.

[

Also, many conservative Catholics like to blame homosexuality, modernism and liberalism for the sexual abuse problems when infact no such correlation has been established

http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/cleric3.pdf

](http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/cleric3.pdf)

There is no link between what we believe, how we worship, disregard for Church authority and breaking of the moral law?

 

[snoopy]

fix:

Are not most the cases found to be in the 1960s-80s? While these abusers may have been in the priesthood before 1962, I would think it reasonable to conclude the atmosphere of the times, sexual revolution, and the misinterpretation of VII gave occasion for many to act out in a way they previously would not.

Sorry Fix, Permission has never been given to molest a child. It has always been a crime in this culture. The real kicker though is the way the church heirarchy handled these crimes. I can only imagine the hand wringing and teeth nashing going on when they were trying to cover it up.

 

[fix]

snoopy:

fix:

Are not most the cases found to be in the 1960s-80s? While these abusers may have been in the priesthood before 1962, I would think it reasonable to conclude the atmosphere of the times, sexual revolution, and the misinterpretation of VII gave occasion for many to act out in a way they previously would not.

Sorry Fix, Permission has never been given to molest a child. It has always been a crime in this culture. The real kicker though is the way the church heirarchy handled these crimes. I can only imagine the hand wringing and teeth nashing going on when they were trying to cover it up.

I do not think it is about permission from an authority, but perceived license by those given over to their desires.

I agree the cover ups are wrong, that does not mean those who acted are not guilty.

 

[miguel]

Steven Merten:

…I do agree with you though. Do not loose faith in God due to the evil actions of Popes, Bishops and Priests.

…or Protestant leaders.

 

[Ham1]

fix:

Are not most the cases found to be in the 1960s-80s? While these abusers may have been in the priesthood before 1962, I would think it reasonable to conclude the atmosphere of the times, sexual revolution, and the misinterpretation of VII gave occasion for many to act out in a way they previously would not.

[

There is no link between what we believe, how we worship, disregard for Church authority and breaking of the moral law?](http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/cleric3.pdf)

Priests who commit sexual abuse (as well as priests who commit liturgical abuse) were not properly formed in the seminary. It’s not as though “good” priests woke up one day after VII and decided, “I think I’ll molest a child.” Something rotten was spread in the seminaries long before Vatican II.

 

[miguel]

EtienneGilson:

Also, many conservative Catholics like to blame homosexuality, modernism and liberalism for the sexual abuse problems when infact no such correlation has been established.

Common sense tells us that bad ideas have bad consequences. But just in case we don’t have common sense, we have the John Jay report…hard data…81% of the victims were male…only 22% of the victims were pre-adolescent children…pretty strong correlation with homosexuality if you ask me. And Rome’s recent re-affiming of the ban on homosexual ordination indicates they took the hint. Now our Bishops need to follow orders.

 

[Brad]

fix:

Are not most the cases found to be in the 1960s-80s? While these abusers may have been in the priesthood before 1962, I would think it reasonable to conclude the atmosphere of the times, sexual revolution, and the misinterpretation of VII gave occasion for many to act out in a way they previously would not.

[

](http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/cleric3.pdf)

Fr. Groeschel has indicated that the brewing scandal was a combination of the latter circumstance (“60s sexual revolution”) and a prior circumstance of inadequately training the seminarians in issues regarding sexuality. The inadequate training (zero information) is not an excuse from disordered and immoral behavior that followed but it did allow much to go on behind closed doors that noone would have even dreamed of looking for, which would also effect belief of the testimony of a victim/witness.

It is a rather interesting and first-hand assessment.

 

[fix]

Ham1:

Priests who commit sexual abuse (as well as priests who commit liturgical abuse) were not properly formed in the seminary. It’s not as though “good” priests woke up one day after VII and decided, “I think I’ll molest a child.” Something rotten was spread in the seminaries long before Vatican II.

I do not disagree, but it seems a bit coincidental that all the sexual misconduct started in the 1960s? That there were problems years before 1962 does not mean the events of the 1960s played a minimal role.

 

[Brad]

Ham1:

Priests who commit sexual abuse (as well as priests who commit liturgical abuse) were not properly formed in the seminary. It’s not as though “good” priests woke up one day after VII and decided, “I think I’ll molest a child.” Something rotten was spread in the seminaries long before Vatican II.

It is less an issue of something rotten being spread prior than an issue of prior inadequate teaching allowing the doors to open for rotten behavior to be taught and acted upon.

A similar analogy is a parish whereby years of inadequate teaching (but not fale teaching) ripens the fruit to be exposed to false teaching which is accepted and rottens the fruit.

 

[fix]

Brad:

Fr. Groeschel has indicated that the brewing scandal was a combination of the latter circumstance (“60s sexual revolution”) and a prior circumstance of inadequately training the seminarians in issues regarding sexuality. The inadequate training (zero information) is not an excuse from disordered and immoral behavior that followed but it did allow much to go on behind closed doors that noone would have even dreamed of looking for, which would also effect belief of the testimony of a victim/witness.

It is a rather interesting and first-hand assessment.

It seems I would agree with him. I am not saying there were not problems in formation prior to 1962, but a general attitude of sexual license helped many act out when I believe they ordinarily would not.

 

[Brad]

fix:

I do not disagree, but it seems a bit coincidental that all the sexual misconduct started in the 1960s? That there were problems years before 1962 does not mean the events of the 1960s played a minimal role.

Indeed. This is the period where the moral relativists were running wild in academia (not that they aren’t still today).

 

[fix]

Brad:

Indeed. This is the period where the moral relativists were running wild in academia (not that they aren’t still today).

It seems so reasonable to me. The sexual revelution, social turmoil, a general rejection of authority, misundersatnding of VII, general rebellion, poor moral instruction, novelties, etc all are a recipe for chaos and moral lapses. Not rocket science.

 

[LSK]

I also believe, and this is only the opinion of a woman Catholic who grew up in the Church, that part of the problem was not an active, evil intent by the Church hierarchy to cover up the actions of these men and hurt more children but a misplaced trust in the medical and psychological experts of the day.

I remember being taught that sexual predators could be treated and cured in high school psychology classes. This was being espoused by experts up into the 1980’s and early 1990’s. Experts believed that with proper treatment, various kinds of pharmacological cocktails etc a sexual predator - be it a rapist or a pedophile - could be successfully treated and returned to society. Those people who claimed this was a falsehood were hooted down and told they were over-reacting and not treating these people with enough Christian Charity.

Obviously, if a hierarchy has received hundreds of complaints someone should have figured out pretty fast that the so-called treatments were not working…but, if one combines this mindset with our knowledge that nothing is impossible with God, I can understand why hope sprang eternal in the hearts of many who tried to change these men into real priests, instead of the sexual predators that they remained.

 

[koda]

Greeley was in the seminary in the 40’s and this was already a problem (though he says it got much worse), so we’re talking way before Vatican II or the sexual revolution of the 60s. From what he says there seems to have been no real attempt to hide what was going on as even the teachers were involved. Greeley stayed to himself and read a lot. Other than the sexual misconduct, he cites the basic mood of the place as being one where the most important ideal was that the students learn discipline. If you wanted to study more than what they provided, they were suspicious. He says that many, if not most, of the preists that resulted from this system were completely unprepared for real life, not to mention the changes of Vatican II.