Sending Positive Thoughts

[Sideline]

That strikes me as a charitable and considerate response. The fact that you would offer prayer for someone can have a very good effect for the person who asked - even if you don’t believe in it. The person can be encouraged to know that you made that offering of prayer.

I certainly believe that people are encouraged by me telling them I will pray for them, but my experience with praying for people has been abysmal. Nearly all of the people I have prayed for died horrible, excruciating deaths. When I still believed there was a God, and afterwards when I still believed in an “energy”, I actually stopped praying for people. I was pretty convinced that my prayers were actually hurting them. I was in my 30’s, and an atheist, before I actually managed to pray for someone without something really bad happening to them.

Things weren’t any better when I prayed for myself either:

I prayed for faith, and everything in my life challenged it.
I prayed for peace of mind and the strength to carry on, and I had a breakdown.
I thanked God for all of the blessings in my life, and I lost my job and my friends all moved away.

If I didn’t know that it was just a serious of really unfortunate coincidences, I probably would have gone insane. But happily, I know it was just that, a series of unfortunate events.

 

[Leela]

If he is "righteous’ he can lay claim to this:The prayer of arighteous man has great power in its effects.

James 5:16 RSV

What does the righteous man have power over? Do his prayers change God’s mind? In other words, does such a man have power over God? What sort of “effects” can we expect to see?

It’s not like this sort of thing has not been studied:

nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

It’s just that no one has ever been able to demonstrate the efficacy of prayer. I doubt that “positive thoughts” are any more powerful.

Best,
Leela

 

[davidv]

What does the righteous man have power over?

Thank you for your questions.

The righteous man, or woman, has power over their own passions (desires). The righteous man’s intellect has apprehended truth and his will is ruled by this intellect.

Do his prayers change God’s mind?

No. Our prayers change ourselves.

In other words, does such a man have power over God?

No and yes. No we have control of God, however I believe that the righteous, through prayer, can direct God’s power in achieving a good.

What sort of “effects” can we expect to see?

Any number of things: e.g., miraculous healing, peace of mind, favorable circumstances.

It’s not like this sort of thing has not been studied:

nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

It’s just that no one has ever been able to demonstrate the efficacy of prayer. I doubt that “positive thoughts” are any more powerful.

Best,
Leela

Since I believe that most prayers are answered spiritually, not physically, I would anticipate that similar studies in the future would lead to similarly inconclusive results.

 

[Leela]

The righteous man, or woman, has power over their own passions (desires). The righteous man’s intellect has apprehended truth and his will is ruled by this intellect.

I can’t make heads or tails out of “apprehended truth” without knowing what it is that is claimed to be true.

No and yes. No we have control of God, however I believe that the righteous, through prayer, can direct God’s power in achieving a good.

Any number of things: e.g., miraculous healing, peace of mind, favorable circumstances.

Since I believe that most prayers are answered spiritually, not physically, I would anticipate that similar studies in the future would lead to similarly inconclusive results.

I’m not sure what it means to answer a prayer spiritually. If you explain the effects of prayer, unless you are talking about praying for the soul to go to Heaven in which case we’ll just have to wait and see, then if the effects are real we should be able to notice them in some way.

But you seem to be saying that prayer can heal people physically and on earth as well. If so, we should see evidence of such power of prayer in scientific studies. But, of course, we don’t.

Best,
Leela

 

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, I gotta admit “I’ll be sending you positive thoughts” so often comes off really shallow and cursory, even rude - although it’s okay when talking about the mild annoyances or life. But so does the easily said “I’ll pray for you.” Both are so easy to say - they’re kinda cheap hallmark-cards of concern printed on tp, if that.

I was speaking of those who are truly in the unfathomable depths of pain and confusion, in which case, I feel it is imperative to put more work, concern and heartfelt commitment in what I may say. And in some case, I am truly struck dumb by the depths of their pain - nothing I could say in words seems enough - I would rather hold their hand quietly if even that would be appropriate, but at that proximity, I do hope the look on my face and unobtrusive behavior, save when requested to simply listen to their anguish would make even a little difference, and being there for them to the best of my ability might help even the tiniest bit.

 

[davidv]

I can’t make heads or tails out of “apprehended truth” without knowing what it is that is claimed to be true.

This response is related to the theological virtue of faith and hope. The “Virtue” article in the Catholic Encyclopedia is the source of the information that led to this response.

I’m not sure what it means to answer a prayer spiritually. If you explain the effects of prayer, unless you are talking about praying for the soul to go to Heaven in which case we’ll just have to wait and see, then if the effects are real we should be able to notice them in some way.

Since I believe that my ultimate end is not here on earth but in the spiritual realm, my spiritual well-being is of primary importance. Not only that, physical comfort is often detrimental to the spiritual, so prayers asking for physical benefits will be less likely to be in line with God’s will than those directed to spiritual healing.

But you seem to be saying that prayer can heal people physically and on earth as well. If so, we should see evidence of such power of prayer in scientific studies. But, of course, we don’t.

Best,
Leela

And given your lack of acceptance of evidence of the existence of God, I would not expect you to recognize any in this area either.

 

[1holycatholic]

What does the righteous man have power over? Do his prayers change God’s mind? In other words, does such a man have power over God? What sort of “effects” can we expect to see?

It’s not like this sort of thing has not been studied:

nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

It’s just that no one has ever been able to demonstrate the efficacy of prayer. I doubt that “positive thoughts” are any more powerful.

100% of those prayers were answered. The “study” is flawed because it assumes a particular outcome must occur for a prayer to have been answered.

 

[Sideline]

100% of those prayers were answered. The “study” is flawed because it assumes a particular outcome must occur for a prayer to have been answered.

That’s exactly the same as how my magic rock works.

I have this rock that answers every request I make of it. Sometimes it gives me the wisdom to live without the thing I ask it. Sometimes it tells me to wait, and sure enough the thing I ask it for comes about. Other times, what I ask for comes to me right away. Often I have to work for the things I get from my rock, but I know that it is what is giving me the strength to carry on.

It’s a pretty special rock.

Edit: I forgot to mention that it is also fabulous at sending me positive thoughts. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

[1holycatholic]

That’s exactly the same as how my magic rock works.

I have this rock that answers every request I make of it. Sometimes it gives me the wisdom to live without the thing I ask it. Sometimes it tells me to wait, and sure enough the thing I ask it for comes about. Other times, what I ask for comes to me right away. Often I have to work for the things I get from my rock, but I know that it is what is giving me the strength to carry on.

It’s a pretty special rock.

Edit: I forgot to mention that it is also fabulous at sending me positive thoughts. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

In order for your “magic rock” to have the attributes you describe it would have to be omniscient, and, by necessity, atemporal.

Rocks are temporal. Your rock is just a rock.

 

[Leela]

I have this rock that answers every request I make of it. Sometimes it gives me the wisdom to live without the thing I ask it. Sometimes it tells me to wait, and sure enough the thing I ask it for comes about. Other times, what I ask for comes to me right away. Often I have to work for the things I get from my rock, but I know that it is what is giving me the strength to carry on.

What a positive thought! Thanks, Sideline, for telling me about this. I just wouldn’t want to live in a world that didn’t have magic rocks like yours. I can’t imagine how people who do not believe in magic rocks find meaning in life.

Best,
Leela

 

[Leela]

In order for your “magic rock” to have the attributes you describe it would have to be omniscient, and, by necessity, atemporal.

Rocks are temporal. Your rock is just a rock.

You’re missing the point. His is a MAGIC rock.

 

[Leela]

This response is related to the theological virtue of faith and hope.

I still don’t know what true statements the righteous man has apprehended. I would like to know these truths.

I said: “But you seem to be saying that prayer can heal people physically and on earth as well. If so, we should see evidence of such power of prayer in scientific studies. But, of course, we don’t.”

And given your lack of acceptance of evidence of the existence of God, I would not expect you to recognize any in this area either.

Are you saying that you see the power of prayer in scientific studies and that I don’t? Or are you saying that scientific studies can tell us nothing about prayer? If not, why? Either people can be healed through prayer or not. If there is a truth here to be known, why can’t we know it?

Best,
Leela

 

[1holycatholic]

You’re missing the point. His is a MAGIC rock.

I don’t care if it’s called an invisible pink unicorn. In order to have the attributes claimed it must have the other properties indicated.

 

[Leela]

100% of those prayers were answered. The “study” is flawed because it assumes a particular outcome must occur for a prayer to have been answered.

I don’t if know if you read the article, but the study was led by a proponent of the power of prayer to heal the sick.

The outcome that was looked for was what was prayed for–that the patient should recover. Should they have looked for a different outcome? Then what?

Isn’t the idea of praying for a sick person to get better so that the sick person will get better? If not, I think almost all believers in the power of prayer must have it wrong.

Can you suggest how to improve the study or how a better study could be conducted to demonstrate the power of prayer scientifically?

Best,
Leela

 

[Sideline]

In order for your “magic rock” to have the attributes you describe it would have to be omniscient, and, by necessity, atemporal.

Rocks are temporal. Your rock is just a rock.

Did I mention that it was the son of the Great Rock, also known as the Rock of Ages? :bowdown2: The all-knowing, all-powerful rock that…

I think that you missed an important point here: It **is **just a rock.

Try it yourself some time. Go down to the beach, or a river, or wherever, and pick up a rock. Then ask the rock for something. The rock in it’s infinite love for you will either grant your request, let you know that you have to be patient, or it will give you something even more special than what you ask for. If you ever find life to hard to bear you can cling to the rock, and it will send you it’s love.

There’s only one catch, and it has nothing to do with atemporality. The catch is that you have to credit everything good that happens to you as the will of the rock, and you have to blame everything bad that happens to you as your unwillingness to put your faith in the rock. It also helps if you think that the rock loves you.

If you don’t like rocks try a tree, a balloon, a mouse trap, or even my left toe… or, you know, Jesus. I know he’s just a man, but some people take great comfort in him.

 

[Sideline]

What a positive thought! Thanks, Sideline, for telling me about this. I just wouldn’t want to live in a world that didn’t have magic rocks like yours. I can’t imagine how people who do not believe in magic rocks find meaning in life.

Best,
Leela

Thanks Leela,

You know what they say, “The road may be rocky… but that’s kind of the point.”

I’m glad to have you on-side spreading the rocky goodness.

Seriously, though… I absolutely love your posts.

 

[1holycatholic]

Did I mention that it was the son of the Great Rock, also known as the Rock of Ages? :bowdown2: The all-knowing, all-powerful rock that…

I think that you missed an important point here: It **is **just a rock.

Try it yourself some time. Go down to the beach, or a river, or wherever, and pick up a rock. Then ask the rock for something. The rock in it’s infinite love for you will either grant your request, let you know that you have to be patient, or it will give you something even more special than what you ask for. If you ever find life to hard to bear you can cling to the rock, and it will send you it’s love.

There’s only one catch, and it has nothing to do with atemporality. The catch is that you have to credit everything good that happens to you as the will of the rock, and you have to blame everything bad that happens to you as your unwillingness to put your faith in the rock. It also helps if you think that the rock loves you.

If you don’t like rocks try a tree, a balloon, a mouse trap, or even my left toe… or, you know, Jesus. I know he’s just a man, but some people take great comfort in him.

Jesus is God. God is not magic. There are rational arguments for God’s existence.

If superstitious atheists want to promote a fantasy of magic rocks, that wouldn’t surprise me given some of the other irrational tripe they espouse.
xfilesfanclub.com/userImages/productImages/IW2B_Mousepad_TRXF1004_lg.jpg

 

[Sideline]

Jesus is God. God is not magic. There are rational arguments for God’s existence.

If superstitious atheists want to promote a fantasy of magic rocks, that wouldn’t surprise me given some of the other irrational tripe they espouse.

You really seem to be missing the point here:

Take anything like a tea cup, an egg timer, a pine cone, a sock, a bookshelf. Pray to it faithfully and your prayers will be answered, as long as you pray to it with the same faith you have in God.

In other words, as long as you give the object you chose credit for all the “blessings” it gave you.

 

[reggieM]

I certainly believe that people are encouraged by me telling them I will pray for them, but my experience with praying for people has been abysmal. Nearly all of the people I have prayed for died horrible, excruciating deaths. When I still believed there was a God, and afterwards when I still believed in an “energy”, I actually stopped praying for people. I was pretty convinced that my prayers were actually hurting them. I was in my 30’s, and an atheist, before I actually managed to pray for someone without something really bad happening to them.

Things weren’t any better when I prayed for myself either:

I prayed for faith, and everything in my life challenged it.
I prayed for peace of mind and the strength to carry on, and I had a breakdown.
I thanked God for all of the blessings in my life, and I lost my job and my friends all moved away.

If I didn’t know that it was just a serious of really unfortunate coincidences, I probably would have gone insane. But happily, I know it was just that, a series of unfortunate events.

This is difficult and I don’t want to give a superficial answer. First, thanks for posting your experience. It sounds to me like you’ve done well to pray and then observe. The results do seem, at the very least to be coincidences. To me, that says something. If the next action was to stop praying and then you observe that those kinds of coincidences also stop – that is important as well.

More later when I get more time.

 

[reggieM]

Are you saying that you see the power of prayer in scientific studies and that I don’t? Or are you saying that scientific studies can tell us nothing about prayer?

Are there different qualities of prayer? The scientific study should take that into account also. The quality of prayer is dependent on the quality of the pray-er.

God responds to prayer in accord with His own methods (which He has taught us). In order to experiment on the power of prayer, one needs to evaluate the quality of the person praying as well as the quality of the prayer itself.

There is a considerable amount of literature in the Catholic world that describes the effects of prayer by “high quality pray-ers”.

What gives a person a greater capability for miracle-working prayers?

That is the “science of the saints” – and that is what you should be studying to learn about how prayer works, how it has been effective, and how to do it in a way that will work miracles.

A biology text will not be able to evaluate the power of prayer unless it is able to conduct the test on all the factors involved in the power of prayer.