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Jim_Baur
Guest
When Jesus said we should follow Him, what is the literal meaning?
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D
Della
Guest
That we should do as he told us and become like him through obedience to him in the Church he established. He didn’t had a literalistic meaning, such as wear 1st century clothing for our every day wear and eat nothing but what he ate, and so on. Does that answer your question or am I missing something here?
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Della:
Thanks!
I agree.
His statement had a literal meaning, be like Him.
I agree.
We cannot walk behind Him.
Thanks!
I agree.
His statement had a literal meaning, be like Him.
I agree.
We cannot walk behind Him.
G
Gabriel_Serafin
Guest
We must imitate Christ, but in order to imitate Him we first must know Him. We know Him by meditating on His life. The Holy Rosary is a meditation of the Life of Jesus Chris. Here is a short visual meditation
Jesus said that in order to be His disciple, we must pick up our crosses daily, and follow Him. Jesus carried His cross to to be crucified upon it for our salvation. Likewise, we are called to be as it were “co-redeemers” with Him, carrying our crosses, united to Christ, sacrificing ourselves for the good of others. Suffering is to be sanctified, and the sanctification of suffering is called sacrifice.
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2715/suffering.jpg
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jochoa
Guest
Excellent question, my friend!
Excellent response! And to offer extended interpretations of carrying the cross, please consider the following:
Strive to be perfectly patient and kind, especially in the face of unjust impatience and meanness, for the experience of happiness with unbreakable peace in all relationships, including yourself.
T
TimothyH
Guest
The answers given are good, but they are not the literal sense of Jesus’ command to “Follow me.” What the other’s have given are excellent spiritual senses, but not the literal sense.
Catholics are taught to interpret scripture by first understanding the the literal sense. The literal sense helps us understand the three spiritual senses of scripture but we first have to understand the literal sense. The literal sense of scripture is the meaning of the words on the page, what the author was trying to communicate in his writing and what his audience would have understood when reading it.
To be a “Follower” in Jesus time was to become a disciple, or a student of a Rabbi. The “Follower” would literally follow around his master and learn from him. The disciple became like his master as he learned and matured, and eventually he himself would teach, doing so under the authority of the one who trained him. In calling people to “Follow” him, Jesus was calling them to be a student, to learn his wisdom and his way of life. To be a disciple was to adhere to a school of thought. Jesus was calling them to discipleship.
John writes of the student-followers of John the Baptist becoming the student-followers of Jesus right away in the first chapter of his Gospel.
Andrew was a “Follower” of John the Baptist, but became a “Follower” of Jesus when John the Baptist pointed him out. They even call Jesus by the honorific title “Rabbi”, perhaps indicating their desire to become his students.
“Following” speaks of the student/teacher or apprentice/master relationship. The early monks, the Desert Fathers would follow a “Spiritual father” or a spiritual guide, and would so be a “Follower” of their teacher/spiritual father. That’s the literal sense. That’s what the author was trying to communicate and what the Jewish audience to whom the author was writing would have understood - aprenticeship, discipleship, and becoming the student of a teacher who was to be your master.
Once we understand the literal sense, then we can understand the spiritual senses of Scripture. There are three spiritual senses; 1). alegorical sense or how the scripture points us to Christ, 2) moral sense or how it instructs us in sound Christian living, and 3) anagogical sense or how it points us to the four last things - death, judgment, Heaven and Hell.
The Catechism explains the literal and three spiritual senses of scripture in paragraphs 115 to 117.
*115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
But the literal sense is what the words on the page mean literally, not in an alegorical or spiritual way, but what they actually say and how a first century Jew would have understood it.
-Tim-
Catholics are taught to interpret scripture by first understanding the the literal sense. The literal sense helps us understand the three spiritual senses of scripture but we first have to understand the literal sense. The literal sense of scripture is the meaning of the words on the page, what the author was trying to communicate in his writing and what his audience would have understood when reading it.
To be a “Follower” in Jesus time was to become a disciple, or a student of a Rabbi. The “Follower” would literally follow around his master and learn from him. The disciple became like his master as he learned and matured, and eventually he himself would teach, doing so under the authority of the one who trained him. In calling people to “Follow” him, Jesus was calling them to be a student, to learn his wisdom and his way of life. To be a disciple was to adhere to a school of thought. Jesus was calling them to discipleship.
John writes of the student-followers of John the Baptist becoming the student-followers of Jesus right away in the first chapter of his Gospel.
The next day John was there again with two of his disciples, and as he watched Jesus walk by, he said, “Behold, the Lamb of God.” The two disciples heard what he said and followed Jesus. Jesus turned and saw them following him and said to them, “What are you looking for?” They said to him, “Rabbi” (which translated means Teacher), “where are you staying?” He said to them, “Come, and you will see.” So they went and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day. It was about four in the afternoon. Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who heard John and followed Jesus. (John 1:35-40)
Andrew was a “Follower” of John the Baptist, but became a “Follower” of Jesus when John the Baptist pointed him out. They even call Jesus by the honorific title “Rabbi”, perhaps indicating their desire to become his students.
“Following” speaks of the student/teacher or apprentice/master relationship. The early monks, the Desert Fathers would follow a “Spiritual father” or a spiritual guide, and would so be a “Follower” of their teacher/spiritual father. That’s the literal sense. That’s what the author was trying to communicate and what the Jewish audience to whom the author was writing would have understood - aprenticeship, discipleship, and becoming the student of a teacher who was to be your master.
Once we understand the literal sense, then we can understand the spiritual senses of Scripture. There are three spiritual senses; 1). alegorical sense or how the scripture points us to Christ, 2) moral sense or how it instructs us in sound Christian living, and 3) anagogical sense or how it points us to the four last things - death, judgment, Heaven and Hell.
The Catechism explains the literal and three spiritual senses of scripture in paragraphs 115 to 117.
*115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
- The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.
- The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.
- The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.*
But the literal sense is what the words on the page mean literally, not in an alegorical or spiritual way, but what they actually say and how a first century Jew would have understood it.
-Tim-
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Jim_Baur
Guest
What is the literal sense of “Pick up your cross”?
What is the literal sense then and now?
Thanks!
What is the literal sense then and now?
Thanks!
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Oh, I like all of the answers.
Timothy, I cannot thank you enough!
Timothy, I cannot thank you enough!
T
TimothyH
Guest
There is a good book titled “The Bible Compass” by Dr. Edward Sri if you want to read more about the Catholic way of reading and interpreting scripture and about the literal and spiritual senses.
Another good tool is an online concordance. I use the RSV concordance here. A simple search of the New Testament for the phrase “follow me” comes up with 21 matches. It was really fun to be able to see every instance of “follow me” in the New Testament and try to discern what God wants us to know.
follow me
80 verses contain the word bread.
The word “woe” is in 37 verses!
Fun! But it also helps to understand the meaning of a passage based on all the other passages with similar words or phrases.
-Tim-
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Jim_Baur
Guest
When Jesus said follow Me, were the disciples academic students?
Were the disciples love students?
Were the disciples students of a way of life (love students)?
Were the disciples love students?
Were the disciples students of a way of life (love students)?
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Isn’t the moral sense of scripture sometimes the literal?
Wouldn’t this be an example: “Love your neighbor and you love yourself”?
Thanks!
Wouldn’t this be an example: “Love your neighbor and you love yourself”?
Thanks!
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
To quote St.Thomas (I 1.10, ad 3), “The parabolic sense is contained in the literal, for by words things are signified properly and figuratively. Nor is the figure itself, but that which is figured, the literal sense. When Scripture speaks of God’s arm, the literal sense is not that God has such a member, but only what is signified by this member, namely, operative power. Hence it is plain that nothing false can ever underlie the literal sense of Holy Writ.”
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
St. Paul says love is patient and kind and so forth.
The literal is literally moral.
TimothyH, isn’t this in line with the passages from CCC?
Again, thanks!
The literal is literally moral.
TimothyH, isn’t this in line with the passages from CCC?
Again, thanks!
C
Crumpy
Guest
the best understanding I have of carrying our cross daily is to follow Christian principles of living. In so doing, we are suffering – carrying our crosses – because we have to constantly live by overcoming our own tendencies toward sin. That is carrying our cross.
Carrying our cross also involves all the stresses that come at us to sin, such as being pressured to conform to the secular culture around us. As St Paul tells us, we are to be “dead” to sin – when the temptation to sin comes at us, we are immune to the temptation as if we were physically dead. This is a form of suffering, because we have natural desires and other tendencies to sin, all day long.
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
From this quote of St. Thomas, the literal is the spiritual sense.
The literal is the analogical sense. Our understanding of God is that which leads to Him.
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TimothyH
Guest
I don’t know the answers to all of your questions.
Your bringing up the many references in scripture to God’s right arm are provocative. God doesn’t have a right arm, but how would a Jew have understood a reference to God’s right arm?
And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it upon the head of E’phraim, who was the younger, and his left hand upon the head of Manas’seh, crossing his hands, for Manas’seh was the first-born. … When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of E’phraim, it displeased him; and he took his father’s hand, to remove it from E’phraim’s head to Manas’seh’s head. And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father; for this one is the first-born; put your right hand upon his head.” But his father refused, and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; nevertheless his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” (Genesis 48:14, 17-19)
A blessing was always given with the right hand upon the head. A king or mighty warrior would use a weapon in his right hand. A trusted advisor would sit at the kings right hand.
I don’t know the answer. Sometimes the senses are not easy to understand. I don’ t know the answer and know little about the work of St. Thomas. I tried to read the summa once. I got through about 50 pages and then my eyes glassed over and I brought it back to the library.
-Tim-
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Tim
I believe it is correct.
I have worked with these topics a long time.
In one sense, it is really difficult.
In another sense, it is really clear.
I BELIEVE, I have an accurate understanding, but I am looking to bounce these ideas off of others.
Thanks for your sharing and honest help.
When you asked, how would a Jew have understood God’s arm? If it were Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon or Isaiah, each one would be different. Just as each individual in history has to pray about it–not to mention when I was twenty or now that I am in my fifties.
Moses and the Jews had the Lamb at Passover.
The Lamb and Passover are understood by Christians in an allegorical sense, as pointing to Jesus Christ. They were real history, too.
Jesus Christ is the true Lamb in that He won our Redemption.
There was a real Temple. It was a real building. The Temple is also understood in an allegorical sense, that is, pointing to Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the true Temple. In Jesus God dwelt in man. In that sense He was the real Temple.
Again, I want to thank you for your time, energy and kind help!
I believe it is correct.
I have worked with these topics a long time.
In one sense, it is really difficult.
In another sense, it is really clear.
I BELIEVE, I have an accurate understanding, but I am looking to bounce these ideas off of others.
Thanks for your sharing and honest help.
When you asked, how would a Jew have understood God’s arm? If it were Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon or Isaiah, each one would be different. Just as each individual in history has to pray about it–not to mention when I was twenty or now that I am in my fifties.
Moses and the Jews had the Lamb at Passover.
The Lamb and Passover are understood by Christians in an allegorical sense, as pointing to Jesus Christ. They were real history, too.
Jesus Christ is the true Lamb in that He won our Redemption.
There was a real Temple. It was a real building. The Temple is also understood in an allegorical sense, that is, pointing to Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the true Temple. In Jesus God dwelt in man. In that sense He was the real Temple.
Again, I want to thank you for your time, energy and kind help!
C
Crumpy
Guest
In his book, Jesus of Nazareth, Benedict XVI says the following ( p. xx)
There are dimensions of the word that the old doctrine of the fourfold sense of Scripture p(name removed by moderator)ointed with remarkable accuracy. The four senses of scripture are not individual meanings arrayed side by side, but dimensions of the one word that reaches beyond the moment.
There are dimensions of the word that the old doctrine of the fourfold sense of Scripture p(name removed by moderator)ointed with remarkable accuracy. The four senses of scripture are not individual meanings arrayed side by side, but dimensions of the one word that reaches beyond the moment.
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
Thanks Crumpy!
M
mercytruth
Guest
To follow Jesus is to follow his example of loving God and one’s neighbor. To follow him is to be obedient to the teachings that God the Father gave Jesus Christ to give to us. To follow Jesus is to deny ourselves and take up our cross of suffering for his sake. A summary of the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ can be found in the Sermon on the Mount. (Chapters 5,6, & 7 of St.Matthew’s Gospel). Of course, always keeping mind, that without Jesus we can do nothing in our own strength that is pleasing to God. In addition, we have the Eucharist chapter of John 6 and the other sacramental scriptures within the Gospels.
God’s peace
Micah
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