Sensitive situations and health professionals

[Prodigal_Son]

Sometimes on these forums, a person brings up a sensitive issue and is told that “this should be handled by a professional”. Am I the only person here who has dealt with professionals, however, and is unimpressed? Professionals, by and large, don’t have a lot more wisdom than ordinary people. Professionals can’t speak openly, because they will lose their job if they make a single mistake.

I post this directly in response to a thread recently closed, about family relationships and the risk of child sexual abuse. The OP was recommended by a moderator to consult a professional, but the fact is that nothing she described constituted child abuse – although it certainly made her justifiably suspicious.

It seems to me that, if we consult professionals too soon, we are in danger of destroying families and alienating people unnecessarily. It just doesn’t always seem like the loving thing to do.

Am I way off base here?

 

[1ke]

People who clearly have serious mental health issues, legal and financial troubles, and spiritual dilemmas for which they need real guidance by a pastor or spiritual director post here all the time.

This board is for questions of the faith.

We cannot and should not diagnose or give advice related to mental illness, child abuse, spousal abuse, spiritual conditions, legal matters, etc., other than to refer people to REAL help.

There are clear forum rules that prohibit giving legal, medical, etc, advice.

I would say suspected sexual misconduct with a child falls under that prohibition. Such matters need attention of local authorities, your own counselor, or some other person who is IRL, not an internet forum full of people who have only a smattering of the facts and who are not trained in these matters (and even those who are trained cannot consult or advise based on a few postings, nor does CAF permit it)

It’s like people who post a list of symptoms on a parenting board and ask, “do you think Jr has X?” Take your kid to the doctor for heaven’s sake! Or phone lines where they have to actually say “if this is an emergency hang up and dial 911”. I mean, do people have no sense at all?

These things do need professional advice, or advise of friends and family somewhere other than a random internet forum.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Sometimes on these forums, a person brings up a sensitive issue and is told that “this should be handled by a professional”. Am I the only person here who has dealt with professionals, however, and is unimpressed? Professionals, by and large, don’t have a lot more wisdom than ordinary people. Professionals can’t speak openly, because they will lose their job if they make a single mistake.

I post this directly in response to a thread recently closed, about family relationships and the risk of child sexual abuse. The OP was recommended by a moderator to consult a professional, but the fact is that nothing she described constituted child abuse – although it certainly made her justifiably suspicious.

It seems to me that, if we consult professionals too soon, we are in danger of destroying families and alienating people unnecessarily. It just doesn’t always seem like the loving thing to do.

Am I way off base here?

I do kind of agree with the moderators, the problem is with the post you mention, she now has a whole host of people telling her its wrong, her daughter is being groomed, etc etc…I actually don’t see any evidence for child abuse from what she has said…yes some of it “may” be strange and probably needs to be checked out but without actually seeing that sort of thing it is difficult to comment… Stroking of a thigh for example…if an adult is sat on a chair and the child comes and stands next to them, the adult puts their arm around them, it’s naturally going to be around the thigh area…I’ve walked around naked in front of my grandparents as a child a lot! My nan still comes into my room when I’m naked, she has no concept of personal space…to her she changed my nappies, bathed me (as did my grandpa)…they’ve seen it all before!

So while its good to offer our advice, it can cause huge problems…in this case a grandpa may be completely innocent and he now as an abuse case against him because of this forums. I suppose every family is different!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

These things do need professional advice, or advise of friends and family somewhere other than a random internet forum.

Is it an either/or? Why not a both/and?

I certainly agree that there are certain things “random people on the internet” aren’t qualified to comment on. But the philosophy that “whenever there is a problem, go to the authorities” puts an undue burden on the authorities.

I used to be a high school teacher, and occasionally I would have a situation come up which made me worried about a student’s home life. These situations were usually mild, but made me wonder. I did not always immediately report these situations to the counseling departments, because (a) I had no concrete evidence, and (b) I had no trust in the system. How can I contemplate starting a set of events that might separate a child from his or her parents and thrust them into a terrible foster system? I mean, honestly, I did do such things, but I had to have some real evidence to put the matter into the legal system.

Sometimes, I think that – instead of discerning the loving thing for ourselves, with help – we thrust the responsibility onto someone else. In this day and age, that “someone else” is overworked, exhausted, and often less qualified than we are.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So while its good to offer our advice, it can cause huge problems…in this case a grandpa may be completely innocent and he now as an abuse case against him because of this forums. I suppose every family is different!

This puzzles me. If the OP of that thread goes to professionals, won’t the professionals want to talk to this grandfather? And won’t that make the whole situation blow up, in terms of family relating?

I thought the OP was getting good advice to deal with things in the family, through gentle discussion (like EasterJoy was suggesting), and to keep her daughter away from alone time with this man.

Maybe you just have more respect for the professionals than I do?

 

[Xantippe]

ProdigalSon does have a point, in that once you involve mandated reporters (which is what pretty much every knowledgeable professional is), you have started machinery that you cannot stop. So you have to be very, very sure before you contact them, and as the parent you can achieve basically the same results by speaking up about appropriate physical boundaries to the offender and enforcing them and eliminating one-on-one time with the child. If you call in CPS, what are they going to do? They can’t do more than that, aside from removing your child from your home if you persist in having inappropriate grandpa over (but they struggle keeping up with even the most clear-cut cases of abuse and neglect). You can stop having contact with grandpa all by yourself, if that’s what’s needed. Taking a child protection course might be a very good idea, as somebody recommended in that thread.

It might be more helpful for the mom from the inappropriate grandpa story to work with a therapist in figuring out 1) what is and isn’t appropriate and 2) how to stand up for her kids, but it’s not the sort of situation where you can just stand back and let the professionals work. There are good and bad professionals, and the degree of helpfulness depends on the situation and the skill-level of the professional. As they say, what do you call the worst graduate of the worst medical school in the country? Doctor. You can tell the same joke about social workers, priests, marriage counselors, teachers, or whoever.

 

[Xantippe]

In a lot of situations, there’s no harm in going to professionals, because confidentiality protection gives you the opportunity to discuss the situation in a neutral setting with a third party, but in the case of suspected child abuse, that does not apply. Once you go to a mandatory reporter with suspicions, you have effectively pulled the pin on the grenade. There is no safe, neutral space available for that particular discussion, except anonymously on the internet.

I suppose that the mom in the inappropriate grandpa thread could just go to a therapist and ask for help in dealing with her past and how it makes her generally suspicious and setting appropriate boundaries for contact with her childen and how to learn who to trust and how much, but if she just walks in and says, “I think grandpa is a predator” Lord only knows what happens next.

The stakes are a lot lower in situations not involving child welfare.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

This puzzles me. If the OP of that thread goes to professionals, won’t the professionals want to talk to this grandfather? And won’t that make the whole situation blow up, in terms of family relating?

I thought the OP was getting good advice to deal with things in the family, through gentle discussion (like EasterJoy was suggesting), and to keep her daughter away from alone time with this man.

Maybe you just have more respect for the professionals than I do?

Oh I’m not saying she wasn’t getting good advice, but some of the posts may have escalated her concern beyond that which is necessary. Every family is different and boundaries are slightly different as well. She obviously has concerns so should address them but if she were to go to a professional first, things may be addressed more calmly with just her concerns instead of the full scale grooming/child abuse concerns which some posts here suggested. She also has been quite open about her own past so it could be related to that. If this man is completely innocent though, why should he be denied alone time? Maybe it’s because I’m not (and haven’t been brought up) catholic? I don’t know what the norm is, is he catholic? Does he know the norm? When I was young, I used to play in the paddling pool with my grandpa…naked! But he was my grandpa and would never do anything to hurt me. Yet posters are talking about knocking in doors at 2! I remember a film where the governess blindfolded the young girl as she bathed so as not to see her body…it’s all down to perspective. I could be completely wrong and he cold be bad but at least a professianal can actually watch how he is with her and judge, we are just reading text and its difficult to grasp the concept. Even if the poster was just to invite a friend around for tea and quietly say “keep an eye and see what you think”

I work with some very good health professionals so I suppose I do (note: I am not one myself)

 

[RPRPsych]

Sometimes on these forums, a person brings up a sensitive issue and is told that “this should be handled by a professional”. Am I the only person here who has dealt with professionals, however, and is unimpressed?

As a professional who’s had a lot of bad experiences with other professionals, I feel for you.

Professionals, by and large, don’t have a lot more wisdom than ordinary people.

Some do, some don’t. It depends a lot on factors outside their book learning / training.

Professionals can’t speak openly, because they will lose their job if they make a single mistake.

They are likely to err on the side of caution, but that’s not always a bad thing. If an elderly man has a blood test, and it may suggest that he has cancer, the professional is right in not jumping the gun and saying “Mr. X, I’m going to take out your colon!”

I post this directly in response to a thread recently closed, about family relationships and the risk of child sexual abuse.

This is exactly the kind of issue that is best not discussed on a public forum. Frankly, I find it quite remarkable that people post the most intimate details of their lives online, for any curious soul to read. I’m a mental health professional , so nothing shocks me, but I’m also an old-fashioned chap who believes that reticence and modesty are virtues.

The OP was recommended by a moderator to consult a professional, but the fact is that nothing she described constituted child abuse – although it certainly made her justifiably suspicious.

Rightly so. A professional could even be a priest trained in counselling.

It seems to me that, if we consult professionals too soon, we are in danger of destroying families and alienating people unnecessarily.

It depends a lot on the professional and the situation. By your logic, should professionals not have families? (Okay, I was kidding there.)

It just doesn’t always seem like the loving thing to do.

Waiting in silence and allowing boundary violations to escalate to sexual abuse is certainly not a loving thing to do, either.

Am I way off base here?

No, your concerns are legitimate, and there are certainly officious professionals who can do more harm than good. But it’s always dangerous to generalize.

 

[Xantippe]

Truth_Faith13 said:

“If this man is completely innocent though, why should he be denied alone time?”

But an innocent person wouldn’t insist on it. A safe person knows how to accept “no” as an answer.

“Maybe it’s because I’m not (and haven’t been brought up) catholic? I don’t know what the norm is, is he catholic? Does he know the norm?”

It’s not a Catholic thing. I was raised in a Protestant home, and looking back, my mom was very particular about not leaving us unchaperoned with older male relatives (but without being explicit about it). Later events (namely, an abuse accusation from an admittedly nutty relative) suggest that there might have been an inappropriate grandpa in my mom’s family. One of my childhood memories (which might be mistaken) is of that particular older male relative showing up when I was taking a bath when I was 5 or 6 and telling me not to get water in my ears. That was it, but looking back, I kind of wonder about that. Goodness knows I was old enough at the time to take a bath by myself, and MY dad wasn’t hanging around the bathroom when I was that age, so what was this older male relative doing there? That might have been a very lucky escape.

“When I was young, I used to play in the paddling pool with my grandpa…naked! But he was my grandpa and would never do anything to hurt me.”

And yet some do.

“Yet posters are talking about knocking in doors at 2!”

That was a bit much, but everybody’s a much better parent with much better-behaved kids when they’re not actually in the fray.

"I could be completely wrong and he cold be bad but at least a professianal can actually watch how he is with her and judge, we are just reading text and its difficult to grasp the concept. Even if the poster was just to invite a friend around for tea and quietly say “keep an eye and see what you think”

Eh, bear in mind that grandpa was only doing this stuff when his son was out of the room. Bringing in a complete stranger would change the phenomenon even more.

 

[Xantippe]

With regard to my bath story, I should add that the older male relative was 1) kind of a crabby, selfish old guy and 2) never actually took much of an interest in playing with his grandkids, so showing up while I was bathing was doubly and triply weird. But maybe I dreamed the whole thing, or misremembered.

 

[tawny]

People who clearly have serious mental health issues, legal and financial troubles, and spiritual dilemmas for which they need real guidance by a pastor or spiritual director post here all the time.

This board is for questions of the faith.

We cannot and should not diagnose or give advice related to mental illness, child abuse, spousal abuse, spiritual conditions, legal matters, etc., other than to refer people to REAL help.

There are clear forum rules that prohibit giving legal, medical, etc, advice.

I would say suspected sexual misconduct with a child falls under that prohibition. Such matters need attention of local authorities, your own counselor, or some other person who is IRL, not an internet forum full of people who have only a smattering of the facts and who are not trained in these matters (and even those who are trained cannot consult or advise based on a few postings, nor does CAF permit it)

It’s like people who post a list of symptoms on a parenting board and ask, “do you think Jr has X?” Take your kid to the doctor for heaven’s sake! Or phone lines where they have to actually say “if this is an emergency hang up and dial 911”. I mean, do people have no sense at all?

These things do need professional advice, or advise of friends and family somewhere other than a random internet forum.

Well phrased:thumbsup:

 

[mommamaree]

This puzzles me. If the OP of that thread goes to professionals, won’t the professionals want to talk to this grandfather? And won’t that make the whole situation blow up, in terms of family relating?

I thought the OP was getting good advice to deal with things in the family, through gentle discussion (like EasterJoy was suggesting), and to keep her daughter away from alone time with this man.

Maybe you just have more respect for the professionals than I do?

I appreciate your asking these questions. For my own part, the question that started the thread was more than sufficiently answered. I will not speak to any authority about this, because they are legally required to report it, and so far, I only had a creepy feeling that possibly was from PTSD. I have worked with counselors in the past and they have done more harm than good. My sister says the same thing.
Speaking to counselors or medical professionals should not be the first thing that a person does, especially if it is just a question about boundaries and propriety. I will respect forum rules, and not bring up any details from the locked thread, and I would appreciate if everyone else avoids details as well.
But it is rather frustrating sometimes to see “go to counseling” or “talk to your priest” for questions that are seeking information or clarification so that a person can be helped to make an informed choice on their own. On the other hand, some people can freak out and imagine more than is being asked and get an OP worked up unnecessarily. But I think that for the most part, there is a good balance here.

 

[Xantippe]

Mommamaree said:

“I only had a creepy feeling that possibly was from PTSD. I have worked with counselors in the past and they have done more harm than good. My sister says the same thing.”

I have heard that a big issue when counseling individuals with trauma in their pasts is the need to avoid re-traumatizing during therapy. (A relative with PTSD had this happen during counseling with an inept therapist.) I think you should eventually go back to counseling, but this time interview prospective counselors very thoroughly on their experience with treating PTSD and what measures they use to avoid accidentally re-traumatizing clients. You might also want to do some personal reading. I was just doing an Amazon search for “PTSD,” and it looks like there are a lot of highly reviewed books and even workbooks. I don’t know if any of those are appropriate for independent use, but it’s worth a look.

From your previous thread, you come across as feeling powerless in your family, and it might make more sense at this point to just backburner your childhood trauma and ask a therapist to work with you on being assertive and speaking up for yourself. Nowadays, a good therapist is not going to say, “Tell me again about the day your Humvee blew up, your friends died, and your lost your legs” or “Tell me again about your sexual assault,” but is going to be more interested in helping you live a better life now and move forward. The insistence on picking at raw spots is the sign of a bad counselor.

 

[lapislazuli]

Sometimes on these forums, a person brings up a sensitive issue and is told that “this should be handled by a professional”. Am I the only person here who has dealt with professionals, however, and is unimpressed? Professionals, by and large, don’t have a lot more wisdom than ordinary people. Professionals can’t speak openly, because they will lose their job if they make a single mistake.

I post this directly in response to a thread recently closed, about family relationships and the risk of child sexual abuse. The OP was recommended by a moderator to consult a professional, but the fact is that nothing she described constituted child abuse – although it certainly made her justifiably suspicious.

It seems to me that, if we consult professionals too soon, we are in danger of destroying families and alienating people unnecessarily. It just doesn’t always seem like the loving thing to do.

Am I way off base here?

I edited

please read 1ke, she said it much better than I can.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You brought up a lot of points in your opening post, so I’m going to respond to them individually. Although the format I’m using looks argumentative, it isn’t, it’s just the easiest way I know how to do this.

Sometimes on these forums, a person brings up a sensitive issue and is told that “this should be handled by a professional”. Am I the only person here who has dealt with professionals, however, and is unimpressed? Professionals, by and large, don’t have a lot more wisdom than ordinary people. No, they do not have inherently more wisdom. What they do have is experience, communication skills, and a neutral, third party perspective. Professionals can’t speak openly, because they will lose their job if they make a single mistake. Common misconception. It really isn’t that easy to get fired for “making a single mistake” in social services. However, they don’t speak “openly” because it would be unethical to give advice or to try to influence your values or perspective.

I post this directly in response to a thread recently closed, about family relationships and the risk of child sexual abuse. The OP was recommended by a moderator to consult a professional, but the fact is that nothing she described constituted child abuse – although it certainly made her justifiably suspicious. Another misconception. You can call CPS just to get advice, or to see if what you’re witnessing is abuse or grooming for abuse. Parents can call CPS themselves if they are having trouble with discipline, providing nutritious meals, anger problems (either theirs or their child’s), etc. CPS does not get a call and then swoop in and take kids away, and parents as well as outsiders can use them as a resource.

It seems to me that, if we consult professionals too soon, we are in danger of destroying families and alienating people unnecessarily. It just doesn’t always seem like the loving thing to do. Because calls are anonymous, alienation shouldn’t be too big of a concern. Also, there will be an investigation before anyone is taken from a home, unless there is immediate danger.

Am I way off base here?

As someone who grew up in an abusive home where no one ever reported it, I’m going to go ahead and say that it is never more loving to lean to the side of not upsetting adults rather than the child’s safety and well being.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

As someone who grew up in an abusive home where no one ever reported it, I’m going to go ahead and say that it is never more loving to lean to the side of not upsetting adults rather than the child’s safety and well being.

I never came back to the thread to make this point but it comes down to this for me. I was a bit surprised at how many people wanted to err on the said of lets not alienate grandpa or hurt his feelings. If it is an either or preposition I would much rather make sure a child is safe and not being abused.

Let me add that I have never in my personal experience or on tv or anywhere else heard a mother or child cry about alienating a potential abuser and the harm it caused; I HAVE seen tears flow freely about how a parent wishes they had said something or wishes they had done something. I have seen children cry about how nobody saved them from what a family member was doing.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I never came back to the thread to make this point but it comes down to this for me. I was a bit surprised at how many people wanted to err on the said of lets not alienate grandpa or hurt his feelings. If it is an either or preposition I would much rather make sure a child is safe and not being abused.

It’s not an either/or proposition, though. There is never any reason this child needs to be alone with grandpa, and boundaries can be set firmly.

And the concern isn’t about “hurting grandpa”. It’s about breaking a family apart. It’s about handling a delicate situation delicately, not using a grenade.

There are times when grenades are needed. But I’m not sure this is one.

 

[Xantippe]

ProdigalSon said:

“It’s not an either/or proposition, though. There is never any reason this child needs to be alone with grandpa, and boundaries can be set firmly.”

Exactly.

There is also the question of keeping an eye open for any inappropriate behavior with other people’s children, though. I think that you could probably say, “FIL forgets that the girls aren’t babies anymore. They are getting bigger and they need a little bit more space and privacy now” to a SIL without it becoming a federal case. If SIL hears that and files it away–great. If SIL repeats it to FIL–that’s even better.

I had a great-uncle (this was a different guy than the older relative who paid a visit to me in the bath when I was 5 or 6) who used to tickle me pretty much senseless until I was 10 or 11 or so. I don’t think he had any evil intentions, but I would definitely not allow those kind of liberties with my 6th grade daughter. A 10-year-old girl is a big girl.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

It’s not an either/or proposition, though. There is never any reason this child needs to be alone with grandpa, and boundaries can be set firmly.

And the concern isn’t about “hurting grandpa”. It’s about breaking a family apart. It’s about handling a delicate situation delicately, not using a grenade.

There are times when grenades are needed. But I’m not sure this is one.

When you are talking about no alone time with grandpa, do you mean just in this case because mum is concerned or in general (possibility of abuse aside)?

I probably should clarify, I’m not saying protect grandpa over child if there are genuine reasons to be concerned. The child should always be protected and its better to be on the cautious side. What I am trying to say and probably failing miserably at it, is the difference between asking a qualified person (and no protective services won’t immediately take child, the will offer advice too) and coming to an online forum where without actually seeing what is happening, it is difficult judge. My point is that mum came here not sure if she should be concerned…wondering possibly if it was just because was paranoid because of last experience (this would also explain why hubby as never seen it) …now she is convinced it’s a full on child abuse/grooming problem.

She put in her first post that he goes up the back of her shirt and trouser leg…I do this to my brother (who is 11years younger than me…16 now but still do it) in a perfectly innocent way (tickling him usually) however if I had someone in the room with me who was a little concerned and just wrote on an online forum “this girl puts her hand up his shirt and up his trouser leg”…there is no context and its easy to jump to conclusion and get things wrong.

As I explained to the mum if its done in a no talking, no laughing, no fun way where hands are moved slowly as if to caress then absolutely be concerned. However if there is laughter, fun, talking it puts the same “event” in a whole different light. We can’t see this distinction from text. That’s the only point I am trying to make.

We are dealing with things that are difficult to interpret…my grandpa sat in bed with me and read to me…a mum who is concerned could quite easily say “I found him in her bed” completely changing the context. Obviously if clothes were removed then that’s a whole different story and police should be called immediately!

The Mum needs to think about all aspects she has seen carefully and using her own judgment (as she is the one who has seen it…not us) decide whether child needs to be protected from this mum. If she feels she does…phone protective services and get some advice from them. My worry is we on this forum have given an already paranoid person even more concern to worry by saying its definitely grooming/child abuse when we don’t have the context.

I am not sure if that makes it anymore clearer…ill be quiet now