Separated Bretheran

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mark_a said:
“Separated bretheren” does not bug me half as much as “Catholic Christian”
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I like Catholic Christian, particularly in apologetics when facing anti-Catholic bigots who like to suggest that Catholics are not Christians. Very much takes the wind out of their sails.
 
maurin said:
I’m not quite sure I understand. Could I ask you to explain?
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What part is not understandable? the question was, “Isn’t using Catholic Christian reducing us to just another denomination?”.

The short answer is “no”. I gave a few details to the “no”.
 
otjm said:
What part is not understandable? the question was, “Isn’t using Catholic Christian reducing us to just another denomination?”.

The short answer is “no”. I gave a few details to the “no”.
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maybe I’m just dumb, then. I didn’t understand your answer and asked for clarification.
 
maurin said:
maybe I’m just dumb, then. I didn’t understand your answer and asked for clarification.
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And I wasn’t trying to be sharp with you; I thought what I wrote was pretty understandable.

Let’s try it another way: if I state a fact, and someone who does not understand the surrounding facts then presumes that the fact is opinion instead of fact (another way might be to say they make it relative), have I reduced the fact to an opinion? No; I stated the fact. It is the other person who presumes that it is opinion as opposed to fact.

The question asked : stating that I am a Catholic Christian - doesn’t that reduce the Catholic Church to just another denomination - is not done so by me; I have simply stated a fact. If the other person hearing my statement doesn’t know that the Cathoic Church holds itself out to be the one, true Church, that is not caused by my statement of a fact, but by their lack of knowledge of surrounding facts.

That clearer?
 
otjm said:
And I wasn’t trying to be sharp with you; I thought what I wrote was pretty understandable.

Let’s try it another way: if I state a fact, and someone who does not understand the surrounding facts then presumes that the fact is opinion instead of fact (another way might be to say they make it relative), have I reduced the fact to an opinion? No; I stated the fact. It is the other person who presumes that it is opinion as opposed to fact.

The question asked : stating that I am a Catholic Christian - doesn’t that reduce the Catholic Church to just another denomination - is not done so by me; I have simply stated a fact. If the other person hearing my statement doesn’t know that the Cathoic Church holds itself out to be the one, true Church, that is not caused by my statement of a fact, but by their lack of knowledge of surrounding facts.

That clearer?
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Seems the “fact” is based on your opinion that it is a “fact”.
 
otjm said:
And I wasn’t trying to be sharp with you; I thought what I wrote was pretty understandable.

Let’s try it another way: if I state a fact, and someone who does not understand the surrounding facts then presumes that the fact is opinion instead of fact (another way might be to say they make it relative), have I reduced the fact to an opinion? No; I stated the fact. It is the other person who presumes that it is opinion as opposed to fact.

The question asked : stating that I am a Catholic Christian - doesn’t that reduce the Catholic Church to just another denomination - is not done so by me; I have simply stated a fact. If the other person hearing my statement doesn’t know that the Cathoic Church holds itself out to be the one, true Church, that is not caused by my statement of a fact, but by their lack of knowledge of surrounding facts.

That clearer?
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no, it isn’t, but I appreciate the effort.
 
brigid12 said:
Agreed. In the west there are so many that are completely unchurched (or practically) that saying “Catholic Christian” is simply helping others to understand what a Catholic is.🤷
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Or --it could mislead them to think Catholics are just another denomination like —Lutheran Christians, Non-denom Christians, and whichever other protestant denominations used the Christian attached to their denomination.
 
Walking_Home said:
Or --it could mislead them to think Catholics are just another denomination like —Lutheran Christians, Non-denom Christians, and whichever other protestant denominations used the Christian attached to their denomination.
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So should we dispense with our original name? Are we or are we not Christians?
 
JKirkLVNV said:
So should we dispense with our original name? Are we or are we not Christians?
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With Catholic --obviously no. If some asks you --just say you a member of the original one and only Church established by God.
 
Walking_Home said:
With Catholic --obviously no. If some asks you --just say you a member of the original one and only Church established by God.
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If someone asks me if I am Christian or Catholic, I intend to tell them “Both…they are identical.” If a Catholic says what I said earlier regarding “we’re Catholics, not Christians,” then I hope for the grace to undertake a spiritual work of mercy and “instruct the ignorant.”

Pope Benedict XV in Beatissimi Apostolorum:

“24. It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as “profane novelties of words,” out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: “This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved” (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim “Christian is my name and Catholic my surname,” only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself.”

That’s a fairly “traditional” pope that seemed to have no problem with the two words being used together.
 
Walking_Home said:
Or --it could mislead them to think Catholics are just another denomination like —Lutheran Christians, Non-denom Christians, and whichever other protestant denominations used the Christian attached to their denomination.
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Maybe Texans are different.

I have yet to find anyone, including the pagans out here in the northwest of the US, who think that the Catholic church is just another protestant denomination.

I kinda think you haven’t either. but then, who knows, with Texans…
 
otjm said:
Maybe Texans are different.

I have yet to find anyone, including the pagans out here in the northwest of the US, who think that the Catholic church is just another protestant denomination.

I kinda think you haven’t either. but then, who knows, with Texans…
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It must be taking you 24/7/365 X ? to survey each and every person in the northwest of the US.
 
otjm said:
Did I say I was surveying everyone out here? I am so sorry, I must have mis-spoke.
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aybe Texans are different.

I have yet to find anyone, including the pagans out here in the northwest of the US, who think that the Catholic church is just another protestant denomination.

I kinda think you haven’t either. but then, who knows, with Texans…
You did say you hadn’t found anyone in the northwest of the US – so to do that —wouldn’t you need to have knowledge of what each and every one out there in the northwest thinks.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
So should we dispense with our original name? Are we or are we not Christians?
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Walking-Home =With Catholic --obviously no. If some asks you --just say you a member of the original one and only Church established by God
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The one and only Church established by Jesus Christ was the Christian Church, was it not?
Last night, while channel surfing during some commercials on TV, I saw a man waving around a picture of Pope Benedict, so I stayed on that channel a few minutes to hear what he was talking about. I’m sorry that I did because most of what was said made me sick to my stomach. Why am I mentioning this? Well, part of this man’s rant was concerning how Catholics deny that they are Christians. He stated that many Catholics, when asked if they are part of the Christian faith will say, “No, I am a Catholic”. This he used as proof that the Catholic Church is the one in error since it no longer believed it necessary to also be Christian and thus had turned away from Scripture and Jesus Christ. If this man read the some of the comments on this thread, he would surely use them as more fodder for his hatred of the Catholic Church.
Catholics are Christians first, last and always. If we deny that or for some ideological reason do not wish to call ourselves Christian , then we are neither.
 
OldRedleg said:
Lets look at what the Church says on this issue.

First, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in regards to people who are brought up in what are commonly called “protestant” Christian religions:

Quote:
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
Second, we are called to charity and love as Catholics. We can loose our salvation if we do not have charity for our fellow man.
**
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH, LUMEN GENTIUM, NOVEMBER 21, 1964**
Quote:
“Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it [the Council] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in the body which is the Church…

“They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical governance and communion**. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity**. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a ‘bodily’ manner and not ‘in his heart.’ All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail, moreover, to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.”

Basically, “Judge not, that ye shall not be judged.”
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:confused: :confused: Much of this seems contradictory to me.

On the one hand, I, a “Protestant,” through baptism, am incorporated into Christ and have the right (according to the RCC) to be called “Christian” (this would not be the case, however, if I believed in Christ but was not baptized by water).

And, according to the CCC, I am, by your church, accepted as “a brother in the Lord” even though I am not a member of the RCC, which, RC’ism considers to be “the church.”

But according to the DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH, LUMEN GENTIUM, NOVEMBER 21, 1964, “the church” “is necessary for salvation.”

So, Christ is the “mediator” and “way” of salvation but, according to the above quote, “the church” is the means of salvation and… “they are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who…accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her.”

So, I, a “Protestant,” cannot be incorporated in the society of “the Church,” since I do not accept her “entire system” and “all the means of salvation given to her.”

So it seems to me, though accepted as a “separated brother” I am accepted, however, as an unsaved brother in Christ, since I do not accept the “entire system” with its "means of salvation." Which I assume to be its seven sacraments.

And according to the above quote, the RC himself “will be saved” (future) only if he/she perseveres in “charity.”

Also, based on what has been expressed on this thread, am I a bona fide heretic if I knowingly do not accept the “entire system” of the RCC? If so, wouldn’t all “separated brethren” who know and refuse to convert be considered heretics? And would we not all be classified as unsaved heretics?
 
Moondweller,

Let me try to explain.

The Catholic Church recognizes all those baptized in the Trinitarian Form (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as brother Christians. It teaches that salvation is possible for those Christians not in full unity with the Catholic Church.

However, the Catholic Church further believes that there is an assurance of salvation for those who are in full union with the Catholic Church, participate in it’s sacramental live, and follow it’s moral teachings.

Christ came to this world to save all men who would believe in him. He is the Church. It is a mystery how he will bestow his saving grace to each individual when the time comes. The Catholic Church teaches that it has the fullness of truth and how to live your life to obtain that salvation. But since it is still a mystery it is not our place to judge our “separated brethren” as condemned to eternal damnation just because they are not fully united with the Catholic Church.

Finally, to be a heretic you must be a practicing Catholic who has been taught the doctrine of the faith and professed your belief in it who then renounces a part of that doctrine or dogma of the faith. If you never were taught it or professed a belief in it you can’t be a heretic.

It is for this reason that the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) is relatively simply for baptized Christians. Teach ‘em the doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church and bring them in. For a true unbaptized practicing pagan there are a series of denunciations of false belief and minor exorcisms that the rite calls for that do not apply to baptized Christians.
 
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