"Separated Bretheren"

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This is an important comment.

Is there another Catholic Church which is spoken of in the dogma “outside of the Church there is no salvation”?

…
That, and many of the other quotes that Rogare provided are true and dogmatic and all that, but they’re also not really addressed to YOU personaly.They’re addressed to the Catholics. Those statements are true for Catholics, but not true for seperated brethren.

For example, back when I was a seperated brethren I got married in a non-Catholic church. Now that I’m Catholic that’s a sin but when I was seperated bretheren it was ok. It’s not that the Catholic Church has changed. Rather it’s that it has only changed from my perspective.

So please, don’t be surprised when you look back 14 centuries if the Pope wasn’t talking to someone who is in exactly the same circumstances as you. 😉
 
**This is an important comment.
Is there another Catholic Church which is spoken of in the dogma “outside of the Church there is no salvation”?**
That, and many of the other quotes that Rogare provided are true and dogmatic and all that, but they’re also not really addressed to YOU personaly.They’re addressed to the Catholics. Those statements are true for Catholics, but not true for seperated brethren.
Yet that is not the testimony of such “true and dogmatic” statements. Here is just one example you mention:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
This is not addressing Catholics, but also pagans, Jews, ***heretics ***(“separated brethren”), and schismatics.

Telling us that this is not addressing pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics is silly, IMV.

…
 
This is an important comment.

Is there another Catholic Church which is spoken of in the dogma “outside of the Church there is no salvation”?

…
The Catholic understanding of who can be considered a member of the “Catholic Church” has been given many times on CAF. When I referred sources to Rogare, he told me “You can keep them”. What I find interesting is the picking and choosing that goes on by some as to which official Church documents must be upheld and accepted. For example, Rogare quotes many earlier official documents as valid and then throws out those from an ecumenical council!

There is growth in the understanding of doctrine.
Also, teachings of the Church need to be in conformity to previously declared dogma.
The Church teaches that Baptism incorporates one into the Mystical Body of Christ -which is His Church, the one He founded on Peter, the Catholic Church.

**The teaching that Baptism does not have to be administered by a Catholic is a very old one. It was taught by Augustine **(4th century) when there were questions as to whether the Baptism administered by the Donatists (heretics) was valid. Augustine upheld the validity of Donatist baptism. I don’t know if you read an earlier post of mine where I noted what this teaching automatically implies, so I’ll repeat it:
We know the Church doesn’t teach that only members of the institutional Catholic Church here on earth can go to heaven. For example, the Church teaches that the water Baptism of other Christian faiths is a valid baptism; it removes the stain of original sin and the life of sanctifying grace is infused into their soul. Now, if they do not commit a mortal sin before they die that would mean they died in the state of sanctifying grace - and the Church teaches that those who die in that state are saved, they are not condemned to hell.
 
The Catholic understanding of who can be considered a member of the “Catholic Church” has been given many times on CAF. When I referred sources to Rogare, he told me “You can keep them”. What I find interesting is the picking and choosing that goes on by some as to which official Church documents must be upheld and accepted.
When did you refer other sources to me which prompted a reply of “You can keep them?” I don’t recall that incident.

I don’t understand how you can accuse me of picking and choosing. An ex cathedra statement is infallible and binding on the conscience of all Catholics. Let’s re-read the following ex cathedra statement:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

According to this infallible statement, there is no eternal life, but only eternal fire for heretics and schismatics. How do us Protestants not fall under these qualifications? Seems pretty hard to get out from underneath this statement.
 
Yes, or how about:

**Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”**

As well as

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity."

This must be a different Catholic Church than today’s.
The validity of Baptism by “heretics” has been upheld and taught by the Church starting at least as early as Pope St, Stephen I (pope from approx. 254 AD - 257 AD). It is one of the dogmas included in the Council of Trent (1200’s). It is also Catholic dogma that Baptism confers the grace of justification - again included in the Council of Trent documents. The subsequent documents you cite have to be understood in conformity with these already existing teachings. I don’t have any difficulty understanding that Baptism makes one a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. And that “Catholic Church” (in the documents in question) means all those who are members of the Mystical Body of Christ. I’m sorry you seem unable to grasp that. I’ve explained it the best I know how, but it doesn’t seem to be adequate for you. My apologies for not being a more capable teacher. I’ll ask God to send you a FAR more capable one - the Holy Spirit.

God bless you Rogare.
 
When did you refer other sources to me which prompted a reply of “You can keep them?” I don’t recall that incident.
.
No wonder you can’t recall it – I got you mixed up with another poster. :o:o:o
Mea culpa.
 
I don’t have any difficulty understanding that Baptism makes one a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. And that “Catholic Church” (in the documents in question) means all those who are members of the Mystical Body of Christ. I’m sorry you seem unable to grasp that. .
If Pope Eugene truly meant those in the Mystical Body of Christ, then I understand your point. I have no problem grasping that 🙂 However, how could a heretic be a part of the Mystical Body of Christ? Do only some heresies result in damnation, but others do not? I do not understand how a heretic could be a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.
 
If Pope Eugene truly meant those in the Mystical Body of Christ, then I understand your point. I have no problem grasping that 🙂 However, how could a heretic be a part of the Mystical Body of Christ? Do only some heresies result in damnation, but others do not? I do not understand how a heretic could be a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Catholic teaching is that only mortal sin causes one to lose Justifying/Sanctifying grace. ** Knowledge **(not just information!) and intent enter into whether one is guilty of sinning mortally. Only God can read the heart, so only He knows for certain whether a person is guilty of sinning mortally.

Let’s just take you and I for an example. (I am assuming you are not Catholic.)
We both know what the Church teaches, in the limited sense of having the information. But I “know” it (have incorporated it as truth into my being - into my mind and heart).
You on the other hand, really desire truth and are searching for it. You have heard what the Catholic Church teaches, but try as you might, and in all earnestness, you cannot understand how it could be true. You believe it to be false and therefore are unable to accept it into your mind and heart as truth. You do not “know” it is true (one of the conditions necessary for a sin to be mortal) - you only know we (Catholics) say it is true. Therefore, the knowledge requirement for a sin to be mortal is not there. You do not lose the supernatural life of grace received in Baptism.
 
Catholic teaching is that only mortal sin causes one to lose Justifying/Sanctifying grace. ** Knowledge **(not just information!) and intent enter into whether one is guilty of sinning mortally. Only God can read the heart, so only He knows whether a person is guilty of sinning mortally.

Let’s just take you and I for an example. (I am assuming you are not Catholic.)
We both know what the Church teaches, in the limited sense of having the information. But I “know” it (have incorporated it as truth into my being - into my mind and heart).
You on the other hand, really desire truth and are searching for it. You have heard what the Catholic Church teaches, but try as you might, and in all earnestness, you cannot understand how it could be true. You do not know it is true (one of the conditions necessary for a sin to be mortal) - you only know we (Catholics) say it is true. Therefore, the knowledge requirement for a sin to be mortal is not there. You do not lose the supernatural life of grace received in Baptism.
Is there an official document I can look at concerning this? This seems rather silly. I fully know what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the Papacy, Mary, the Eucharist, etc. I also fully understand exactly what these terms mean and how the RCC defines them. With all that, I fully reject what the Catholic Church teaches. These seems equal to saying, “Well, Oneness Pentecostals know what the Trinity is, but they reject it. However, since they can’t fully “know know” what it means, they aren’t damned.” I don’t know that anyone would really agree with that.
 
Is there an official document I can look at concerning this? This seems rather silly. I fully know what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the Papacy, Mary, the Eucharist, etc. I also fully understand exactly what these terms mean and how the RCC defines them. With all that, I fully reject what the Catholic Church teaches. These seems equal to saying, “Well, Oneness Pentecostals know what the Trinity is, but they reject it. However, since they can’t fully “know know” what it means, they aren’t damned.” I don’t know that anyone would really agree with that.
I will get back to you with sources and quotes. That will take a little time tho and right now I have to start getting ready to go to Sunday Mass! Will get back to you this afternoon if no one else posts the info by then.
 
I will get back to you with sources and quotes. That will take a little time tho and right now I have to start getting ready to go to Sunday Mass! Will get back to you this afternoon if no one else posts the info by then.
Sounds good, I’m about to head off to Church as well 🙂 Have a blessed Lord’s Day, Nita.
 
Is there an official document I can look at concerning this? This seems rather silly. I fully know what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the Papacy, Mary, the Eucharist, etc. I also fully understand exactly what these terms mean and how the RCC defines them. With all that, I fully reject what the Catholic Church teaches. These seems equal to saying, “Well, Oneness Pentecostals know what the Trinity is, but they reject it. However, since they can’t fully “know know” what it means, they aren’t damned.” I don’t know that anyone would really agree with that.
Well, it just means that, as humans, we can easily enough remain ignorant of one truth or another, specifically if there are competing forces such as upbringing, negative experiences, etc. The Church calls this “invincible ignorance”. The following excerpt from the Catechism is relevant here:

**IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60
Code:
The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61 **
Also, there is good information about mortal sin and it’s requirements beginning at paragraph 1854. Here is the teaching on The Churches role in our salvation:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Code:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Code:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 **

Beginning on paragraph 839, the Catechism teaches about the Church’s relationship to non-Christians.
 
Taking invincible ignorance to its logical conclusion, shouldn’t we never, ever, ever under any circumstances preach the gospel to anybody?! That way as many people as possible remain invincibly ignorant and have a better shot of ending up in Heaven?
 
Sounds good, I’m about to head off to Church as well 🙂 Have a blessed Lord’s Day, Nita.
Now that my soul’s been fed – and my stomach – I’ll start on the mind!!

Fhansen saved me some work. I’ll just add the Catechism links for his/her quotes in case you want to check out more of the surrounding paragraphs. It will also let you check out the footnote references if you want:
#1790-1794
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P62.HTM

#846-848 vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

Here are a few more references from
  1. the Catechism
  2. Pope John Paul II - which in turn references Session 6 of the Council of Trent (links provided):
  3. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church #1852-1864 (on mortal sin and venial sin)
    vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM
  4. Reconciliatio et paenitentia (Pope John Paul II & Sixth General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops
    Part 2, Chapter 1, Paragraph 17 Mortal and Venial Sin (Scroll about 1/3 of the way down) vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html
Brief quote:
Here we have the core of the church’s traditional teaching, which was reiterated frequently and vigorously during the recent synod. The synod in fact not only reaffirmed the teaching of the Council of Trent concerning the existence and nature of mortal and venial sins,(95) but it also recalled that mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. It must be added-as was likewise done at the synod-that some sins are intrinsically grave and mortal by reason of their matter. That is, there exist acts which, per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object. These acts, if carried out with sufficient awareness and freedom, are always gravely sinful.(96)
  1. Cf Council of Trent, Session VI, De Iustificatione, Chap. 2 and Canons 23, 25, 27: Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, Bologna 1973, 671 and 680f (DS 1573, 1575,1577).
  2. Cf Council of Trent, Session VI De Iustificatione, Chapt. 15: Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, ed. dt. 677 (DS 1544).
(Link to Session 6 - history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html)

And a blessed Lord’s Day to you also, Rogare.
 
Taking invincible ignorance to its logical conclusion, shouldn’t we never, ever, ever under any circumstances preach the gospel to anybody?! That way as many people as possible remain invincibly ignorant and have a better shot of ending up in Heaven?
Ignorance doesn’t guarantee heaven-it just makes us somewhat less culpable because we’ve received less, as per Luke 12:48. So in the end, we’re on a level playing field IMO. One way or the other knowledge of God and His will for humankind can only be of benefit to the world.
 
I don’t know if you read an earlier post of mine where I noted what this teaching automatically implies, so I’ll repeat it:

We know the Church doesn’t teach that only members of the institutional Catholic Church here on earth can go to heaven.
Yes. I commented on how important your comment above really is.

I then asked:

Is there another Catholic Church which is spoken of in the dogma “outside of the Church there is no salvation”?

You say that one does not need to be a member of the institutional Catholic Church to go to Heaven, so which “Catholic Church” must a sinner be a member of to go to Heaven?

…
 
Yes. I commented on how important your comment above really is.

I then asked:

Is there another Catholic Church which is spoken of in the dogma “outside of the Church there is no salvation”?

You say that one does not need to be a member of the institutional Catholic Church to go to Heaven, so which “Catholic Church” must a sinner be a member of to go to Heaven?

…
The Mystical Body of Christ.f
See my initial response – Post #43
 
Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t want to be divisive. I want to see them as brothers and sisters. I just can’t seem to grasp how it “works.”
Not to worry. Those on the other side of the bush have maybe even more of a problem seeing us as brothers and sisters.
 
Is there an official document I can look at concerning this? This seems rather silly. I fully know what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the Papacy, Mary, the Eucharist, etc. I also fully understand exactly what these terms mean and how the RCC defines them. With all that, I fully reject what the Catholic Church teaches. These seems equal to saying, “Well, Oneness Pentecostals know what the Trinity is, but they reject it. However, since they can’t fully “know know” what it means, they aren’t damned.” I don’t know that anyone would really agree with that.
As a matter of fact, the analysis is rather sensible – they aren’t silly at all. During the first year of law school, one is introduced to first year basic criminal law. Once you delve past the case law and get at the gist, the course is really quite easy, relatively. What am I getting at here? Well the course really teaches you that crimes are broken down into components: mental state, action, and circumstances.

Burglary is something like: “Entering a home at night with the intent to commit a crime inside the home.”

Mental state: Intent

Action(s): Entering, committing a crime

Circumstances: a home at night, inside the home.

All these elements have to be present (beyond a reasonable doubt) to be convicted of the crime of burglary. If any one element is missing, then the person is not guilty. Thus, let us say that a person entered said home not to steal but to leave a gift. Leaving a gift is not a crime, therefore there was no crime committed. Do you see what I mean?
The Catholic Church acknowledges that not everybody makes a choice NOT to be Catholic. People in far flung areas of the world who never knew the gospel should not be held accountable simply for being born on the wrong continent or under a communist regime. How could one truly be against Christ if they never knew Christ? These are only a few examples and one could hypothesize a hundred more.

Besides the “official” Church announcements on the matter, the entirety of the Church’s social teachings, implicit in the rules of evidence as extrapolated by the Catholic Church, common logic, and natural law sense of justice would tell you that this is true. The weight of all Catholicism leans in this direction. Take care and God bless.

Best Regards
 
Yet that is not the testimony of such “true and dogmatic” statements. Here is just one example you mention:

This is not addressing Catholics, but also pagans, Jews, ***heretics *** (“separated brethren”), and schismatics.

Telling us that this is not addressing pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics is silly, IMV.

…
Deception will not avail you. The words that your argument depend upon do not appear in the original. You yourself added them to prove what proof cannot.

At the risk of repeating my signature: the guilt is that of the expositor, not the text.
 
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