"Separated Bretheren"

[theistgal]

But if he’s been kicked out, shouldn’t he be regarded as “a tax collector or a pagan” (as in Matt 18) rather than a “brother?”

Just out of curiosity, how do the Gospels describe Jesus’ treatment of “tax collectors and pagans”? And what did Jesus say when He was asked, “Who is my brother?”

 

[Rogare]

As a matter of fact, the analysis is rather sensible – they aren’t silly at all. During the first year of law school, one is introduced to first year basic criminal law. Once you delve past the case law and get at the gist, the course is really quite easy, relatively. What am I getting at here? Well the course really teaches you that crimes are broken down into components: mental state, action, and circumstances.

Burglary is something like: “Entering a home at night with the intent to commit a crime inside the home.”

Mental state: Intent

Action(s): Entering, committing a crime

Circumstances: a home at night, inside the home.

All these elements have to be present (beyond a reasonable doubt) to be convicted of the crime of burglary. If any one element is missing, then the person is not guilty. Thus, let us say that a person entered said home not to steal but to leave a gift. Leaving a gift is not a crime, therefore there was no crime committed. Do you see what I mean?
The Catholic Church acknowledges that not everybody makes a choice NOT to be Catholic. People in far flung areas of the world who never knew the gospel should not be held accountable simply for being born on the wrong continent or under a communist regime. How could one truly be against Christ if they never knew Christ? These are only a few examples and one could hypothesize a hundred more.

Besides the “official” Church announcements on the matter, the entirety of the Church’s social teachings, implicit in the rules of evidence as extrapolated by the Catholic Church, common logic, and natural law sense of justice would tell you that this is true. The weight of all Catholicism leans in this direction. Take care and God bless.

Best Regards

I know this sounds nice to the ears, but it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense. We serve an omnipotent and omniscient God. He sent His Son to make the ultimate sacrifice to redeem those who have faith in Him. Yet, he overlooked the fact that Africa or South America is a long way from Jerusalem? If He would potentially save some of these people anyway, without them putting faith in the gospel message, then why go to all the trouble in the first place?

 

[Atemi]

**Yet that is not the testimony of such “true and dogmatic” statements. Here is just one example you mention:

This is not addressing Catholics, but also pagans, Jews, heretics (“separated brethren”), and schismatics.

Telling us that this is not addressing pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics is silly, IMV.**

Deception will not avail you. The words that your argument depend upon do not appear in the original. You yourself added them to prove what proof cannot.

You said the quote was addressing Catholics only. This has been proven to be false.

Secondly, the RCC teaches that Protestants are heretics. The RCC teaches that such heretics are “separated brethren.”

If there is any deception in that, it is not my own.

…

 

[Atemi]

**Yes. I commented on how important your comment above really is.

I then asked:

Is there another Catholic Church which is spoken of in the dogma “outside of the Church there is no salvation”?

You say that one does not need to be a member of the institutional Catholic Church to go to Heaven, so which “Catholic Church” must a sinner be a member of to go to Heaven?**

The Mystical Body of Christ.

So you affirm that the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ.

I agree.

…

 

[justtryin]

%between%

So you affirm that the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ.

I agree.

…

You are playing funny with context of people’s quotes again. Be nice.

From This Rock:

What is this mystical body? catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

 

[Atemi]

**So you affirm that the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ.

I agree.**

You are playing funny with context of people’s quotes again. Be nice.

I am sorry, but the poster claimed that the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ. This is not my claim. This is the claim of the Catholic poster I was responding to.

Granted, I agree with the poster, but I would never suspect that would not be considered being nice.

…

 

[justtryin]

Concerning separated bretheren and the Mystical Body, The closing paragraph from the article I linked reads…

The Catholic Church is “the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time” (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”

This is That Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[Atemi]

Concerning separated bretheren and the Mystical Body, The closing paragraph from the article I linked reads…

Quote:
The Catholic Church is “the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time” (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”

This is That Mystical Body of Christ.

And that is not the institutional Catholic Church according to the previous Catholic poster.

Thus the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ.

I don’t see the problem.

I agree with the poster.

…

 

[tlimon]

I know this sounds nice to the ears, but it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense. We serve an omnipotent and omniscient God. He sent His Son to make the ultimate sacrifice to redeem those who have faith in Him. Yet, he overlooked the fact that Africa or South America is a long way from Jerusalem? If He would potentially save some of these people anyway, without them putting faith in the gospel message, then why go to all the trouble in the first place?

Good to the ears? No, it’s consistent with my entire last paragraph. God did not overlook Africa and South America, your exception is actually my point. If you flipped the script on your argument you would see my reasoning. Why did Christ go through all the trouble of dying on the Cross if it were only for those who could ever possibly know him? Such a limited and paltry act of sacrifice would seem woefuly insufficient for an omnipotent and omniscient God. The expression of one thing does mean to the exclusion of another, per se. Expressio Unius Est Exclusio Alterius.

An 18 year-old boy with Down’s Syndrome is walking a few short blocks home from school. He stops by the neighbor’s yard facing the sidewalk and picks a rather exotic and expensive flower from the neighbor’s yard. The boy excitedly runs up to the porch where his mother is sitting enjoying the afternoon sunshine and exclaims, “Mom, I picked this flower from Ms. Jansen’s yard for you!” The mother knowing that the flower was exceedingly expensive and was picked without permission grits her teeth and says, “Thank you Michael.” If you believe sin and salvation occurs without mitigating circumstance, then the boy has clearly committed petty larceny. In addition to mental retardation working on one’s mental culpability, time and geographic separation is but another mitigating circumstance as it applies to sin.

We are called to spread the gospel. The salvation story continues today through the arms and ears and bodies that carry Christ’s message to others. I don’t pretend that salvation isn’t hard without the graces of sacraments. No, I think it is probably very difficult, but I will not venture to say who has sufficient grace or not.

God Bless

 

[Nita]

So you affirm that the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ.

I agree.

…

The Body of Christ is all who have been baptised (Christian Baptism). It would also include all whom God has filled with His Holy Spirit; all whom God has infused with His supernatural life of sanctifying grace.

There is one Lord, one baptism, one faith, one Spirit, one body of Christ - the Church.
cf. Eph 4:5; 1 Cor 12:13

 

[Nita]

And that is not the institutional Catholic Church according to the previous Catholic poster.

…

It is the institutional Catholic Church - because that is the institutional Church Jesus founded. But I’m guessing you’re assuming the Catholic Church consists only of it’s registered members, as tho only registered Catholics are united to the “Catholic Church”. We are of course those most fully united – but the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, so it includes all who have His supernatural life in them, His Spirit – all who are in Christ. There is only one Jesus/Lord. **All **who have His life and Spirit are united to His body as members of it He is the head, we are the members. .

Our understanding and definition of the institutional Catholic Church involves more than just human membership – which should be obvious when you consider what we say about it!!
We say it is “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. Unfortunately, that does not describe all who are registered Catholics. But it does describe the institutional Church He established… He preserves those attributes - one, holy, catholic, apostolic - in it’s Sacraments, it’s teachings/doctrines, His presence, His Spirit, His life of grace…

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I’m trying to wrap my mind around this concept. It sounds like an oxymoron. How is it possible to be a brother “in Christ” and yet be “separated?” If they are separated from the Body of Christ, how can they be brothers and sisters “in Christ?”

Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t want to be divisive. I want to see them as brothers and sisters. I just can’t seem to grasp how it “works.” I want to be able to articulate how it is possible. I also want to be able to better articulate why they should consider “coming home” to Catholicism if they are already “in the Body.”

Thanks.

Well, this is the way I look at it. The Catholic Church is the visible Body of Christ, with all other Churches and ecclesial communities seperated from it. However, it is possible that some of those members may be part of the Mystical Body of Christ, which has all of those people who are saved. The seperated brethren (of who I’m included now), are still Christians, just not part of the visible Body of Christ (if you can wrap your head around that). That’s how I see it.

Why should they consider coming home to Rome? So that they can become part of the visible Body of Christ, the Church that Jesus Christ, God Incarnate established, that gives the fullest means of salvation on earth, which will never be overcome.

 

[fhansen]

It is the institutional Catholic Church - because that is the institutional Church Jesus founded. But I’m guessing you’re assuming the Catholic Church consists only of it’s registered members, as tho only registered Catholics are united to the “Catholic Church”. We are of course those most fully united – but the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, so it includes all who have His supernatural life in them, His Spirit – all who are in Christ. There is only one Jesus/Lord. **All **who have His life and Spirit are united to His body as members of it He is the head, we are the members. .

Our understanding and definition of the institutional Catholic Church involves more than just human membership – which should be obvious when you consider what we say about it!!
We say it is “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. Unfortunately, that does not describe all who are registered Catholics. But it does describe the institutional Church He established… He preserves those attributes - one, holy, catholic, apostolic - in it’s Sacraments, it’s teachings/doctrines, His presence, His Spirit, His life of grace…

:thumbsup:I think the issue comes down to a question, why would anyone want to be imperfectly joined to the Church God established for the salvation of man?

 

[ESMDHokie77]

And that is not the institutional Catholic Church according to the previous Catholic poster.

Thus the institutional Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ.

Well, so long Atemi, may God bless you and open your eyes and heart.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The further one gets from the catholic church and the more tenuously that one is joined to it–the greater the chance of ending up in Hell!

 

[Nita]

:thumbsup:I think the issue comes down to a question, why would anyone want to be imperfectly joined to the Church God established for the salvation of man?

Right. And there are just so many blessings available only in the Church – above all the Eucharist; sacramental Confession. Also we have the assurance that the doctrines we profess are the truth - not because we are pretty sure we’ve figured them out correctly, but because God in His power oversees His Church and makes sure it proclaims only the truth.

 

[RevPhil]

“Separated brethren” is an inferior term to “heretic” or “schismatic” in that it is less precise, but has the advantage over them in that it is less likely to suggest the person using it is pronouncing a moral judgment on the people being referred to by the term.

Someone who is not fully, visibly, corporately a member of the Catholic Church is therefore in a real sense in schism, and likely in heresy as well. However, this objective status does not automatically imply that they are subjectively aware of and culpable for this separation and error. Here we get into distinctions like “material heresy” vs. “formal heresy.” However, many people do not possess the theological savvy to make these important distinctions, hence the prudence of using more neutral sounding terminology.

The point is, “separated brethren” is an accurate term because they are baptized Christians, and therefore in some sense brethren whether they are in a state of grace or not, and they are not in visible communion with us, and therefore are separated from us in some way whether or not this is true in an internal, moral sense. It serves well as a generic term for all the baptized outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church precisely because it is so vague, so it can describe people in a multitude of different situations without seeming to suggest a rash blanket moral judgment on all of them.

It seems there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to why Christ even came into the world!

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 3:16-18

Until you can fully comprehend the meaning of those lines, there will continue to be misunderstanding and hatred being spread. Christ came for all, not just a few, or just the Roman Catholics! All human beings were created in God’s image and all are God’s Children. All that have accepted Christ are “brothers and sisters in Christ”, no matter what some that are spreading misconceptions would have you believe. Bigotry and hatred are not going to solve anything! Christ came to this world in love, and only love for all will save you! We were instructed to love God first and above all, and then to love our brothers (and sisters)! And that doesn’t mean just those of or own denomination and belief system. That’s all human beings, even our enemies and those we despise the acts of most!

It sounds as if you are under the impression that today there is only one catholic church in the world. There are many churches that call themselves catholic but are not of the Roman communion. The word “catholic” means 'universal", and indeed, there is only one catholic church. It is comprised of all Christians that have accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The “Roman Catholic Church” which is usually seen spelled with a capital “C” is by far the largest ‘catholic’ church in the world, but by no means the only one. There are Eastern Orthodox, Asian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, (and numerous other orthodox churches), the various Coptic Orthodox and Catholic Churches, the “Old Catholic Church”, the “Ecumenical Catholic Church”, as well as a number of others that use the term ‘catholic’ in their names. By the very definition, they are not any less ‘catholic’ that anyone else.

There are also a possible number of popes at any given time. The ‘Pope’ in Rome, is only the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. And many others can also show in documentation their claims to Apostolic Succession. Does this make them wrong? No. It’s only a matter of interpretation.

Was Athanasius of Alexandria (St. Antony) an RC? I don’t think any scholar today would consider him such. Neither were many others of the earliest Saints. They predate what would today be called the Roman Catholic Church as we know it.

There is far too much misunderstanding today from all sides, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and the Protestants. And I believe there will never be understanding until all agree to sit and converse calmly and openly, with their minds open to new thoughts and ideas. This is what the concept of reconciliation of the ‘catholic’ church is all about. I pray for it daily, but I doubt I will see it in my lifetime. There is still far too much bias, bigotry, misunderstanding, and hatred in the world today for this matter to be settled. And that’s on all sides of the issue including the Roman Catholic Church. But I will continue my best to walk in the footsteps of Christ and work for reconciliation. Probably there will only be a full reconciliation of the ‘catholic’ church at the Second Coming of Christ!

Pax et bonum

Rev. Phil (a Franciscan Friar)

Reply With Quote

 

[rap1962]

Where it becomes problematic for me, personally, is in dialogue with Protestant friends/family. If I refer to them as separated bretheren, they seem to respond with something like, “Ok, we’re brothers and sisters in Christ. Why should you care whether or not we become Catholic? We are all “in Christ” so how can anyone do better than that?”

The most important reason we can give friends and family for entering the Catholic Church is the Holy Eucharist. This is the source and summit of our faith and what separates all other Christians from us. They are all brothers and sisters in Christ but they have separated themselves from the one means to FULLY receive him, which Christ himself gave us. Eating His body and drinking His blood. Unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood we do not have life within us. Jesus’ own words.

Once Catholics return to a full understanding of the Holy Eucharist, that is is THE body, blood, soul and divintiy of Jesus Christ, we will not be able to effecively witness to our fallen away brothers and sisters. Once we understand and internalize this, then our faith comes alive and ceases to be just a set of beliefs and doctrine.

May God Bless you

 

[RevPhil]

TommyWommy;8029187:

Where it becomes problematic for me, personally, is in dialogue with Protestant friends/family. If I refer to them as separated bretheren, they seem to respond with something like, "Ok, we’re brothers and sisters in Christ. Why should you care whether or not we become Catholic? We are all “in Christ” so how can anyone do better

than that?"

The most important reason we can give friends and family for entering the Catholic Church is the Holy Eucharist. This is the source and summit of our faith and what separates all other Christians from us. They are all brothers and sisters in Christ but they have separated themselves from the one means to FULLY receive him, which Christ himself gave us. Eating His body and drinking His blood. Unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood we do not have life within us. Jesus’ own words.

Once Catholics return to a full understanding of the Holy Eucharist, that is is THE body, blood, soul and divintiy of Jesus Christ, we will not be able to effecively witness to our fallen away brothers and sisters. Once we understand and internalize this, then our faith comes alive and ceases to be just a set of beliefs and doctrine.

May God Bless you

Please think about what you are saying? Again, this is one reason why we have so much divisiveness in the Christian community today!

The gift of the Eucharist was a gift to all who believe! Not just the Roman Catholics! So was the gift of the Holy Spirit! And the other denominations that separated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, did so for a huge variety of reasons, not just the Eucharist! Maybe you need to go back and reread the passages in the Bible again until you understand them, and then reread the history of the early Christian church.

The early Christian church was not Roman Catholic! It was Christian with a wide host of beliefs concerning Christ. By the time the Roman church was established by Constantine, there were already many different beliefs and belief systems associated with Christianity. Some were good, some were bad, some fell by the wayside, and some survived. What we have in Christianity today (and this includes the Roman Catholic Church), is a collection of many traditions and beliefs that have been handed down to us through the ages.

The Eucharist is not just something that the Roman Catholics possess. It was a symbolic gift of the body and blood of Christ that was being sacrificed for all mankind. And many different denominations share in the Eucharist. The Roman Catholics, as well as some other catholic denominations and a few protestant denominations also accept the concept of transubstantiation. Others Christians believe the Eucharist to be a symbol of Christ’s sacrifice that paid the debt for our sins, and this was followed by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What it all comes down to is this…No one is better than anyone else. Christ was the only perfect one! We are all God’s children. When you separate yourself from the entire brotherhood of Christian believers, then you have sinned the same sin that Satan did…the sin of pride! If you believe that you are better than, or have something that other Christians do not, you again have committed the sin of pride and have separated yourself from God’s grace! If you humble yourself before God, and try to follow in the footsteps of Christ, then at least you are on the path! Pray for your brothers and sisters, they are praying for you!

And if you have trouble understanding any of this, better go back to seminary and take a refresher class in “Christianity 101”.

Rev. Phil (a Franciscan Friar)

 

[awantz]

Right. And there are just so many blessings available only in the Church – above all the Eucharist; sacramental Confession. Also we have the assurance that the doctrines we profess are the truth - not because we are pretty sure we’ve figured them out correctly, but because God in His power oversees His Church and makes sure it proclaims only the truth.

We have communion/ Eucharist at my church. We don’t need to confess to man. We confess straight to God. If we feel the need to hear someone tell us that God has forgiven us, we can tell our pastor and he will tell us that God has forgiven us. We know that what we hear is the truth, because it is supported biblically and we have faith. Our pastor even tells us not to take him at his word, but to check what he says with scripture. God overseas His Church/ the body of (all) believers.