"Separated Bretheren"

[rap1962]

rap1962;8055889:

Please think about what you are saying? Again, this is one reason why we have so much divisiveness in the Christian community today!

The gift of the Eucharist was a gift to all who believe! Not just the Roman Catholics! Eucharist! Maybe you need to go back and reread the passages in the Bible again until you understand them, and then reread the history of the early Christian church.

The early Christian church was not Roman Catholic! It was Christian with a wide host of beliefs concerning Christ. By the time the Roman church was established by Constantine, there were already many different beliefs and belief systems associated with Christianity. Some were good, some were bad, some fell by the wayside, and some survived. What we have in Christianity today (and this includes the Roman Catholic Church), is a collection of many traditions and beliefs that have been handed down to us through the ages.

The Eucharist is not just something that the Roman Catholics possess. It was a symbolic gift of the body and blood of Christ that was being sacrificed for all mankind. And many different denominations share in the Eucharist. The Roman Catholics, as well as some other catholic denominations and a few protestant denominations also accept the concept of transubstantiation. Others Christians believe the Eucharist to be a symbol of Christ’s sacrifice that paid the debt for our sins, and this was followed by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What it all comes down to is this…No one is better than anyone else. Christ was the only perfect one! We are all God’s children. When you separate yourself from the entire brotherhood of Christian believers, then you have sinned the same sin that Satan did…the sin of pride! If you believe that you are better than, or have something that other Christians do not, you again have committed the sin of pride and have separated yourself from God’s grace! If you humble yourself before God, and try to follow in the footsteps of Christ, then at least you are on the path! Pray for your brothers and sisters, they are praying for you!

And if you have trouble understanding any of this, better go back to seminary and take a refresher class in “Christianity 101”.

Rev. Phil (a Franciscan Friar)

Rev Phil, you are entitled to your own set of beliefs but not your own facts. The fact is that the Catholic Church goes all the way back to St. Peter, the first Pope of the Church, and the Rock upon which Christ chose to build His church, The Catholic church is the only church today that maintains Apostolic succession and therefore the only church with valid holy orders. Only the Catholic church continues to hold fast to ALL the teachings of the Apostles and the early church. Verifyable historical facts prove this to be true, regardless of what lies and misinformation good intentioned people like yourself wish to promote.

I find it very sad that you can accuse me of lacking humility while at the same time you tell me I need to go back and reread the bible because I don’t understand it as well as YOU. How humble of YOU. And if you understand better than I, you understand better than the Doctors of the church (who also go back to the first century) becasue my understanding comes from them, not from my own interpretation.

And to answer your first point about divisiveness in the Christian community I would like to point you to Mathew chapter 10:34-36. Jesus Christ himself says he has not come to bring peace but the sword. Unity and harmony are great, but not at the cost of Truth. Jesus knew this would happen and he himself tells us it is better to have discord than to sacrifice TRUTH.

Speaking of TRUTH, perhaps you might want to go back and read John Chapter 6. Clearly your belief that the Eucharist is merely a symbol can not be reconciled with Jesus’ own words in this Gospel nor can it be reconciled with the beliefs of the Apostles and the early church. The Eucharist it NOT a symbol, it is THE BODY and BLOOD of Christ. And it takes a Priest with vaild holy orders to consecrate the bread and wine, otherwise it remains just bread and wine.

There are many Christian denominations that have holy communion and some may believe in transubstantion. But the bread and wine can only be consecrated by a Priest with valid holy orders conferred through apostolic succession. Anyone who understands the Priesthood knows why this is but that would be a topic for another thread.

Finally, I would ask you to go back and read my original post. No where do I claim that Catholics are better than anyone else. Nor do I believe we are. We are merely blessed with all the fullness of truth as revealed to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ. It is something that every human being has access to but they must make the choice themselves. Are they going to follow the Apostles who were given divine guidance by the Holy Spirit or some fallable man who has his own fallable interpretation. Must I be Catholic to be saved? Only God knows that answer to that. But I do know for sure that there is only ONE Truth. Christ gave us his Church to teach us the TRUTH. Those who left it, to pursue their own beliefs are free to do so and are loved as much by God as any Catholic. For myself, I was not given the wisdom by God to perceive TRUTH on my own, the way Peter was. That’s why I need the Church to guide me. Jesus said he would send to the Apostles the Holy Spirit to guide them in all things, I take him at his word. If you have a problem with the Church then you have a problem with Jesus, not me.

May God Bless you and show His mercy to you.

 

[rap1962]

We have communion/ Eucharist at my church. We don’t need to confess to man. We confess straight to God. If we feel the need to hear someone tell us that God has forgiven us, we can tell our pastor and he will tell us that God has forgiven us. We know that what we hear is the truth, because it is supported biblically and we have faith. Our pastor even tells us not to take him at his word, but to check what he says with scripture. God overseas His Church/ the body of (all) believers.

You have communion at your church but you do not have the Body and Blood of Christ because you have no way to consecrate it. Without a priest there can be no consecration and the bread and wine remain just bread and wine.

As for confession, you are absolutely correct, you can and should repent of your sins and ask God for forgiveness. No need to confess to Him, however, because He already knows what your sins are. Jesus Himself gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles, and thereby to the Priests who follow in Apostolic succession. He tells us this more than once. Mathew 16:17-19 and again in John 20:21-23.

What is written in Holy Scripture is indeed the infallable Word of God. Your personal interpretation is however not infallable. That is why we need the Church that Christ built upon Peter, the rock, to guide us. We can see this illustrates in Holy Scripture itself. If you read Mathew 4:6 you will find Satan, taking a verse out of context of Holy Scripture in an attempt to trick Jesus. This exchange clearly illustrates how easy it is to misinterpret or even intentionally distort Holy Scripture.

God does love everyone, as you say. He established his Church to guide us until he returns. Being Catholic does not make one better or more loved by God than any one else. It just opens to us the Fullness of Truth that God has revealed to man.

Just remember, there can be only ONE TRUTH. The Catholic church remains unchanged in doctrine since the begining almost 2000 years ago. It teaches and believes today what it did in the beginning. Every other Christian religion is based on some fallable man’s own interpretation which is why today in the US alone there are over 35,000 different Christian Churches including the mainline Protestant, Lutheran and Episcopal churches. Yet there remains only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church. The Truth if Jesus, who is eternal and unchanging. Wouldn’t his true church also be unchanging?

When you understand the true history of the Catholic Faith and her doctrine you come to know that she holds the Fullness of Truth. Jesus told the Apostles that those who reject them, reject Him, and those who reject Him reject the one who sent Him. You can not truly accept Him if you reject His Church. It is not a matter of Salvation. I personally believe all people who follow Christ can be saved. The point is that we follow him most closely when we enter His Church and receive the sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist.

God Bless

 

[SGWessells]

I see it like this: Protestants are like people at a banquet who only eat the appetizer, and believe that the steak and potatoes Catholic diners are feasting on are somehow spoiled or poisoned (although they smell delicious). Or like a man in a storm who stands on the porch of a house. He’s out of the rain, but he’s not in the house with his feet propped up by the fire and sipping hot chocolate. We have the fullness of a faith of which he only has the bare minimum. Or Protestants are like people who come to the first part of Mass but after the Word is read, they leave. They miss the best part, but don’t know it.

Does that help?

 

[awantz]

What is written in Holy Scripture is indeed the infallable Word of God. Your personal interpretation is however not infallable. That is why we need the Church that Christ built upon Peter, the rock, to guide us. We can see this illustrates in Holy Scripture itself. If you read Mathew 4:6 you will find Satan, taking a verse out of context of Holy Scripture in an attempt to trick Jesus. This exchange clearly illustrates how easy it is to misinterpret or even intentionally distort Holy Scripture.

No more infallible than yours. I am a part of Christ’s Church.

Just remember, there can be only ONE TRUTH. The Catholic church remains unchanged in doctrine since the begining almost 2000 years ago.

The Catholic church has been changed. For example, Vatican 1 and Vatican 2.I’ve had Catholics admit to me that the church has fallen away and has made changes.

When you understand the true history of the Catholic Faith and her doctrine you come to know that she holds the Fullness of Truth. Jesus told the Apostles that those who reject them, reject Him, and those who reject Him reject the one who sent Him. You can not truly accept Him if you reject His Church. It is not a matter of Salvation. The point is that we follow him most closely when we enter His Church and receive the sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist.

My husband is Catholic and I’ve gone to RCIA and everything else required to be Catholic, short of confirmation. I go to a Catholic church every Sunday and every other mandatory service. I know/ understand the church as well as most Catholics. If the Catholic church is God’s one and only church, why did He lead me away from it? It is a matter of Salvation. Jesus saves you, not joining the Catholic church. That is your opinion and nothing more. I know non-Catholic Christians who follow him more closely than those who are Catholics.

 

[Mintaka]

I know pagans who follow Christ more closely than some Christians. Does that mean that, since there are evil Christians, Christ obviously wants us all to bow down and worship pagan gods instead of Him?

Of course not.

In the middle of winter, you can heat a warehouse to 100 degrees, install ultraviolet and sunlight-colored lamps, haul in truckloads of sand and install tanks full of water, and then call that a beach. Or you can go to Florida, and go to a beach created by God.

On the natural beach, there may be rainy and cold days, whereas the artificial beach can be kept at the same perfect temperature every day. But if you come back a thousand years from now, the artificial beach will be tend to be gone, but God’s beaches will still be there.

In the same way, through hard work a pagan can be virtuous and seek God faithfully. A Christian without all the advantages of full revelation from God and the many graces given by Him to the Church, can be virtuous and saintly and close to God, just like palmtrees can be grown in an artificial beach-warehouse, and grow tall and strong with loving care. But with the fullness of revelation and the Sacraments and the Church, a very mediocre or pathetic Christian can still grow and flourish, like a palmtree growing outside down by the beach.

And I thank God for that feature, personally…

 

[Hammer33]

There is a great deal of confusion among Catholics, those who profess to be Catholic, and non-Catholics regarding this issue.

Why are the Protestants called separated brethren? The short answer is they were declared anathema ( by the Catholic Church ) because they profess and embrace heretical doctrines and beliefs.

This decree of “anathema” was first used in the first century against Christians who denied the teachings of the Church. ( Gal:1:9-As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema) It is God’s will to declare anathema those who reject the teachings of the Church.

When a person is declared to be anathema, it means they are separated from God, they are separated from Jesus, and they are separated from the Body of Christ, which is the Church. If they are baptised according to the Christian Rite, they have a right to be called Christian, but they do not belong to God because they have not accepted the doctrines and dogmas God has given to us through the Church.

The anathematized are not permitted to receive any of God’s graces given through the 7 Sacraments of the Church because they are separated from God and His Church.

Due to the fact that God loves all people and desires all people to accept Him and become Catholic, we too should love all people, and desire what is good for them. We should not hold the anathematized in contempt, but rather pray to God for them that He will forgive them and grant them the graces necessary to repent and accept His Law given to us by the Church

 

[dogknox]

I’m trying to wrap my mind around this concept. It sounds like an oxymoron. How is it possible to be a brother “in Christ” and yet be “separated?” If they are separated from the Body of Christ, how can they be brothers and sisters “in Christ?”

Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t want to be divisive. I want to see them as brothers and sisters. I just can’t seem to grasp how it “works.” I want to be able to articulate how it is possible. I also want to be able to better articulate why they should consider “coming home” to Catholicism if they are already “in the Body.”

Thanks.

Separated Brethren is just another way of saying “Protestant”!
Separated… Not belonging to the whole!
Protestant … Root word “PROTEST”!

Protestant… “In Protest” against Jesus and his Holy Catholic Body!

Dogknox

 

[awantz]

Protestant… “In Protest” against Jesus and his Holy Catholic Body!Dogknox

I am a non-Catholic Christian/ Protestant and I am not in protest against Jesus and/or the Catholic church, neither are the leaders of my church. As a matter of fact we welcome Catholics with open arms. That is more than I can say about some Catholic churches. As for protesting Jesus, any church that protests Jesus does not deserve to be called a Christian church.

 

[SGWessells]

rap1962;8055889:

"Maybe you need to go back and reread the passages in the Bible again until you understand them, and then reread the history of the early Christian church.

The early Christian church was not Roman Catholic! It was Christian with a wide host of beliefs concerning Christ. By the time the Roman church was established by Constantine, there were already many different beliefs and belief systems associated with Christianity.’ "

Dear Rev. Phil:
Does your Bible lack St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans? He writes to the Roman church, so there was a church there in the first century. Perhaps your copious reading in Church history neglected the epistle of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrneans, in which he referred to the Church as Catholic about 107 A. D., 206 years before Constantine became emperor. And St. Irenaeus refers to the Church of Rome, founded by the “glorious apostles Peter and Paul” before 200 A.D. If you’re going to invoke Church history, better make sure that it agrees with your position first.
I am one of the many former Protestants whom God in His unfathomable mercy called to His Church ( you know, the Roman Catholic one, founded by Christ on the apostle Peter; accept no substitutes). One of the many surprises I got when I started reading the history of the Church before 1517 is how completely Protestantism was lacking in the earliest records of Christianity. Go read the original sources, not Protestant polemics, and you will see for yourself.

 

[JReducation]

Pax et bonum

Rev. Phil (a Franciscan Friar)

Reply With Quote

The Eucharist is not just something that the Roman Catholics possess. It was a symbolic gift of the body and blood of Christ that was being sacrificed for all mankind. And many different denominations share in the Eucharist. The Roman Catholics, as well as some other catholic denominations and a few protestant denominations also accept the concept of transubstantiation. Others Christians believe the Eucharist to be a symbol of Christ’s sacrifice that paid the debt for our sins, and this was followed by the gift of the Holy Spirit.\

Rev. Phil (a Franciscan Friar)

RevPhil . . . you have a problem. To be a Franciscan one has to be a friar, nun, sister or Secular Franciscan. All them must be received into the Franciscan family by a Provincial Minister. Only they have the right of succession back to our holy Father Francis. They can legally call themselves Franciscans, not only is their profession received by a person who has the authority to receive the profession, but they also belong to a legally incorporated community. Every Franciscan community is either part of a larger obedience of the order or is large enough to exist as an independent community. Those that are large enough to be independent, are legally incorporated in every country where they exsist and they are recognized by the local bishop of the diocese in which they live.

Secondly, the rule of St. Francis is very clear that we owe obedience to him and to the pope. The opening article of the rule says.

**1.—In the Name of the Lord begins the life of the Minor Brothers.

The Rule and life of the Minor Brothers is this, namely, to observe the holy Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, by living in obedience, without property and in chastity. Brother Francis promises obedience and reverence to the Lord Pope Honorius and to his successors canonically elected and to the Roman Church. And let the other brothers be bound to obey Brother Francis and his successors.**

The sons and daughters of St. Francis are Catholics who obey and revere the pope, because it’s expected by St. Francis himself.

To be admitted to any of the Franciscan communities, the individual must comply with the second article in the rule, which speaks directly about the entrance requirements.

** .2—Of those who wish to embrace this Life and how they ought to be received.

If any wish to embrace this life and come to our brothers, let them send them to their provincial ministers, to whom alone and not to others is accorded the power of receiving brothers. But let the ministers diligently examine them regarding the Catholic faith and the Sacraments of the Church. And if they believe all these things, and if they will confess them faithfully and observe them firmly to the end, let them [the ministers] say to them the word of the holy Gospel, 1 that they go and sell all their goods and strive to distribute them to the poor.**

The rule requires that you profess the faith of the Catholic Church. You must believe what the Catholic Church teaches about the sacraments.

The 9th chapter of the rule, Francis says

**9.—Of Preachers.

The brothers must not preach in the diocese of any bishop when their doing so may be opposed by him. And let no one of the brothers dare to preach in any way to the people, unless he has been examined and approved by the minister general of this brotherhood, and the office of preaching conceded to him by the latter. **

Before any Franciscan can preach or do any ministry, we must be approved by the local Catholic bishop and by the major superior of the order. You don’t have to be a priest, but you must have permission from the order and the bishop. Just one of them is not enough.

This is very unfair to claim to be a Francisan Friar and contradict what the Catholic Church teaches or oppose the Catholic Church. Our Holy Father would take issue with your statements. If that’s the case, then you have to put distance between him and you or allow him to teach you what it means to be a Christian. I came into the Catholic faith through him. I wanted nothing more than to be like this man who was the “Apostle of Love”. But there was a glitch. This man was Catholic and he was absolutely committed to the Catholic Faith and to teaching Christ’s Gospel as it is believed and taught by the Catholic Church. He was submissive to the popes until death. To be like him, meant to love Christ as he loved him and to follow Christ by walking in his footsteps. His footsteps were Roman Catholic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[dogknox]

I am a non-Catholic Christian/ Protestant and** I am not in protest against Jesus and/or the Catholic church,** neither are the leaders of my church. As a matter of fact we welcome Catholics with open arms. That is more than I can say about some Catholic churches. As for protesting Jesus, any church that protests Jesus does not deserve to be called a Christian church.

Protestant… PROTEST-ER !!!
The Body of Jesus is; His Holy Catholic Church, none other!! His Church, has roots back to Peter, the first pope!

awantz Jesus never made your church, you are not Catholic! You do not have roots back to Jesus, you are Protestant in PROTEST!
FACT: God is perfect!
To be Protestant, you must believe the Holy Spirit leads into error! You are forced to think the Holy Spirit errs!

PROOF?!
Simply because: There are thousands and thousands of your churches, all claim to have the only truth, but not one is the same! No not even one is the same! You are forced to think all of these conflicting churches are the result of errors of guidance on the part of the Holy Spirit! YOU MUST believe the Holy Spirit is not perfect!
In other words; You MUST think God is not perfect to be such a lousy guide!

awantz Your protestant churches are the work of Satan! God does not guide into error!
Scripture…The Great Commission
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Do you see it?
God is ALWAYS WITH his Church! He did NOT start with your thousands and thousands of protesting man made churches! You are forced to reject the Great Commission… You reject a TEACHING Church, one with all of God’s AUTHORITY to teach all nations! And…
And you reject “Jesus is always with his Catholic Church” you MUST reject "I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” or you would be Catholic! You would not have a PROTEST!!

awantz QUESTION.. “Did Jesus leave the Church he formed, for the thousands and thousands of Man made, protestant churches”!?
QUESTION: Did Jesus error when he said… “I am ALWAYS WITH”?!
QUESTION: Did Jesus lie, when he said “I am ALWAYS WITH” knowing that in the future, sixteen hundred years later he would leave the church he formed for a man formed body!
QUESTION: Did Satan OVERPOWER God, did Satan TAKE Jesus’ body away from Jesus!

awantz what do you read…And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
What are you forced to REJECT!!??

awantz Scriptures are the words of God, if you were to believe the scriptures you would be Catholic; You would not have a protest!

Dogknox

 

[Hammer33]

We have communion/ Eucharist at my church. We don’t need to confess to man. We confess straight to God. If we feel the need to hear someone tell us that God has forgiven us, we can tell our pastor and he will tell us that God has forgiven us. We know that what we hear is the truth, because it is supported biblically and we have faith. Our pastor even tells us not to take him at his word, but to check what he says with scripture. God overseas His Church/ the body of (all) believers.

The beliefs that you posted above were told to you by some man who made up his own gods and beliefs. If you ever decide to read the Bible for yourself, you won’t find any of the things you posted above.

Christianity starts and ends with Jesus; don’t be lead astray by those who rejected Jesus and made up their own gods and beliefs. The Bible plainly reads that Jesus started His Church 2000 years ago, it plainly reads Jesus sent HIS Church to teach all people and make disciples of all people. Therefore the only true Christian Church can trace their roots directly back to Jesus.

There were heretics in the first century, St. Paul wrote about them. These heretics rejected the Church of Jesus and they mnade up their own gods and beliefs, and purported to be Christian.

Jesus warned you that false preachers will come and pretend to be Christian pastors. Believe in Jesus rather than the preacher who claims to be your pastor. If your preacher did not come from the Church that Jesus started, then your preacher is an antichrist, an enemy of God, and an enemy of your soul. FYI, the antichrists are the people who pretend to be CHristian, they pretend to serve God, but as Jesus said, they are wolves in sheeps clothing. They will teach you doctrines that oppose the teachings of Jesus and His Church

 

[Hammer33]

It seems there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to why Christ even came into the world!

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 3:16-18

Until you can fully comprehend the meaning of those lines, there will continue to be misunderstanding and hatred being spread. Christ came for all, not just a few, or just the Roman Catholics! All human beings were created in God’s image and all are God’s Children. All that have accepted Christ are “brothers and sisters in Christ”, no matter what some that are spreading misconceptions would have you believe. Bigotry and hatred are not going to solve anything! Christ came to this world in love, and only love for all will save you! We were instructed to love God first and above all, and then to love our brothers (and sisters)! And that doesn’t mean just those of or own denomination and belief system. That’s all human beings, even our enemies and those we despise the acts of most!

It sounds as if you are under the impression that today there is only one catholic church in the world. There are many churches that call themselves catholic but are not of the Roman communion. The word “catholic” means 'universal", and indeed, there is only one catholic church. It is comprised of all Christians that have accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The “Roman Catholic Church” which is usually seen spelled with a capital “C” is by far the largest ‘catholic’ church in the world, but by no means the only one. There are Eastern Orthodox, Asian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, (and numerous other orthodox churches), the various Coptic Orthodox and Catholic Churches, the “Old Catholic Church”, the “Ecumenical Catholic Church”, as well as a number of others that use the term ‘catholic’ in their names. By the very definition, they are not any less ‘catholic’ that anyone else.

There are also a possible number of popes at any given time. The ‘Pope’ in Rome, is only the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. And many others can also show in documentation their claims to Apostolic Succession. Does this make them wrong? No. It’s only a matter of interpretation.

Was Athanasius of Alexandria (St. Antony) an RC? I don’t think any scholar today would consider him such. Neither were many others of the earliest Saints. They predate what would today be called the Roman Catholic Church as we know it.

Pax et bonum

Rev. Phil (a Franciscan Friar)

Reply With Quote

First and foremost, the Franciscan Order was founded by St. Francis of Assisi, a Catholic. Any non-Catholic group which purports to be affiliated with the Order of St. Francis (Franciscan) are counterfeits; frauds.

It is well known among the children of God that the devils create counterfeit Christian religions for the sole purpose of deceiving people and drawing them away from the One True Church that Jesus started 2000 years ago. The devils also create counterfeit Christian Orders like the one RevPhil belongs to.

A person does not need to be a theologian in order to know the truth, one simply needs to believe Jesus, and they will know truth. RevPhil quoted John 3:16; John 3:16 reads those who BELIEVE Jesus may not perish, but might have life.

BELEIVING Jesus means BELIEVING everything Jesus said and did. The Bible plainly reveals to us that Jesus started HIS CHURCH 2000 years ago, it plainly reveals that Jesus sent HIS CHURCH to teach all people and make disciples of all people. Obviously ALL those who believe Jesus will accept and BELIEVE Jesus’ Church, we will all share in the same TRUE teachings that Jesus taught HIS CHURCH.

RevPhil rattles on with drivel about bigotry and hatred. I suspect that RevPhil’s own bigotry and hatred towards Catholics is the reason he asserts that everybody is bigoted and hateful. The reality is that bigotry and hatred is not found within the Catholic Church, it is normally heard from Protestant pulpits.

Salvation is very simple - Jesus personally started the Catholic Church, this fact is known by anybody who has ever studied Christian history. There were 5 Popes in the first century, the Church was named the “Catholic” Church in the first century. Jesus gave us the Church, its doctrines, and the graces available through her to save us. The Bible repeatedly discusses the mission of the Church is the salvation of people.

Jesus clearly warned us that false religions will come and deceive many people. Mt:24:11: “And many false prophets shall rise and shall seduce many.” These false religions are man-made religions, their doctrines oppose Jesus’ teachings and more importantly, God’s salvific graces are not available through them.

Jesus came to save all people, and the truth is that all the people who BELIEVE and OBEY Jesus will be saved. Heb:5:9: “And being consummated, Jesus became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation:” The people who choose to follow man-made religions rather than BELIEVE Jesus will not be saved, and they are the cause of their own damnation

 

[awantz]

The Body of Jesus is; His Holy Catholic Church, none other!!

The Body of Jesus is all believers.

To be Protestant, you must believe the Holy Spirit leads into error! You are forced to think the Holy Spirit errs!

That is incorrect. I do not think the Holy Spirit leads into error. The Holy Spirit is God and God does not lead into error.

Your protestant churches are the work of Satan! God does not guide into error!
Scripture…The Great Commission
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

That is your opinion and nothing more. Maybe you are the work of Satan, calling a Christian church the work of Satan. That doesn’t sound like a Christian to me.

And you reject “Jesus is always with his Catholic Church” you MUST reject "I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” or you would be Catholic! You would not have a PROTEST!!

I do not reject either of those statements. Jesus is with all of his followers/ believers/ Christians always. I considered joining the Catholic church. I have been part of a protest against anyone except baby killers.

awantz QUESTION.. “Did Jesus leave the Church he formed, for the thousands and thousands of Man made, protestant churches”!?
QUESTION: Did Jesus error when he said… “I am ALWAYS WITH”?!
QUESTION: Did Jesus lie, when he said “I am ALWAYS WITH” knowing that in the future, sixteen hundred years later he would leave the church he formed for a man formed body!
QUESTION: Did Satan OVERPOWER God, did Satan TAKE Jesus’ body away from Jesus!

Jesus didn’t leave any church. He is a part of all Christian churches.
Jesus said, “I am with you always.” He was not in error and did not lie. He is with His followers/ believers/ Christians always and that includes me.

awantz what do you read…And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
What are you forced to REJECT!!??

I read God’s word, the BIBLE and I am not forced to reject anything.

awantz Scriptures are the words of God, if you were to believe the scriptures you would be Catholic; You would not have a protest!

I do believe the scriptures are the words of God. I even mentioned that earlier in this post. I’ve mentioned in other posts why I’m not Catholic. I do not have a protest, except the one I mentioned earlier.

 

[dogknox]

awantz You can’t be Protestant and Catholic at the same time!
To be protestant you must be in PROTEST against the Holy Catholic Church!

Jesus never formed any protestant churches… NOT ONE!
Jesus formed his Holy Catholic Church… The Protest started sixteen hundred years after Jesus formed his Holy Catholic Church, the protest is against the Church Jesus formed, his Holy Catholic Church …
awantz “The CHURCH Jesus is ALWAYS WITH is his Holy Catholic Church!!”

To be protestant is to be in PROTEST against Jesus and his holy body, his Holy Catholic Church!

All of your churches are formed by men… NOT by Jesus!
King Henry
Knox
Joseph Smith
Luther
Calvin
White
Russel
etc
etc

Thousands and thousands of man formed churches… Jesus CAN"T be with you and with the Church he formed at the same time… You are IN PROTEST against his Body!

Dogknox

 

[awantz]

Christianity starts and ends with Jesus; don’t be lead astray by those who rejected Jesus and made up their own gods and beliefs.

Jesus warned you that false preachers will come and pretend to be Christian pastors. Believe in Jesus rather than the preacher who claims to be your pastor.

In regards to the first few sentences, I agree. I do believe in Jesus over my pastor. Do you? My pastor even challenges us to compare what he says against the BIBLE and if anything he says is against the BIBLE I will tell/ challenge him.

 

[awantz]

awantz You can’t be Protestant and Catholic at the same time!

Jesus CAN"T be with you and with the Church he formed at the same time… You are IN PROTEST against his Body!

Dogknox

I’m not Catholic or Protestant. I am Christian.

Jesus can be with all Christians at all times. Jesus can do all things. I am not in protest against His body. I am a part of His Body.

 

[RevPhil]

Originally posted by ‘rap1962’
“I find it very sad that you can accuse me of lacking humility while at the same time you tell me I need to go back and reread the bible because I don’t understand it as well as YOU. How humble of YOU. And if you understand better than I, you understand better than the Doctors of the church (who also go back to the first century) because my understanding comes from them, not from my own interpretation.”

**Sorry if I pushed a button there. I’m just trying to get you to think for yourself, and not always just take someone other persons word for everything. God gave us a brain to use, to learn new things, to think for ourselves. We have a very short time here on earth to learn many things. I am not saying anything bad about the “Doctors of the Church”, because they have learned much and are still learning today. We all are. No one except God has all the answers! Learning is a never ending process for human beings, and we will still know very little until we are reunited with God.

I do try to be humble, and I’m sorry if I came off badly. I try hard to just be a humble servant of God that lives my life dedicated to Him and to His service, and tries to understand Him a little better along the way.

But I have taken the time in my life to try to learn the difference between religion and philosophy. One is a science and one is not. Philosophy, like any science, allows us to use the thinking and reasoning ability that God has given us to lay out questions before us and examine them. We can probe them, turn them around and closely look at them from all angles. Man has always been in pursuit of the “truth”, and that’s what science is all about. A process for examining things looking to find the truth. There are some things that we can look at (or not) and knowingly accept them as “truth”. They don’t even need to be tested (but the test is still there if needed). Other questions need more scrutiny, and the things we can prove to ourselves as the truth, we accept as the truth. That’s philosophy, and each individual is unique and different in their personal philosophy.

Religion on the other hand, is not a science, it is based on "faith’. There are many things that we can question and not get the answers? It is then our individual choice if we will accept them as ‘truth’ or not. If we choose to accept them without the proof, then that is faith. That is what all religions are based on. The many things that we must take on faith, as the truth, if we are to believe something. Science and Religion can work together, in fact they must. Albert Einstein once said; “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.”

As I said, I do try to be humble, and I give credit for everything to God. I can do nothing on my own. Please believe me when I say I am not trying to brag or to try to make myself better than anyone else. I am just trying to live my life serving God and praising Him. But, like the “Doctors of the Church” that you referred to, I have spent a great deal of my life studying God and searching for truth. For many years I was a Roman Catholic. But, at some point, I began to question things that I was being told by “so-called” authorities in the Church, that was contrary to generally accepted “Christian” thought and behavior. I did not give up religion, I just began to study it more (even though I had a parochial school education). I eventually earned an MA in Theology (along with several other degrees) and was ordained a non-denominational Protestant Minister. I chose a non-denominational seminary because they stressed the “Love of God and Christ” (and the spreading of that message) as the most important thing. And they believe that all the major differences, fighting and bickering between the various Christian denominations (Catholic and Protestant), are just differences of interpretation. And I have found that to be true for myself. I am now a fairly old man that has traveled the world studying religion and theology in many different cultures, and I now spend much of my time just in prayer (here at the Saint Francis House), and working in various volunteer (pastoral) ministries. I have taken postgraduate courses in various Roman Catholic and Protestant seminaries around the world, and I’ve lived in countries with a diverse number of religions and belief systems (including the Middle East and Asia). Much of my studies has been in the area of “Comparative Religion” and this is probably where I’ll one day do my doctoral work (God willing!).

Rev. Phil

**

 

[RevPhil]

Originally posted by ‘dognox’
“Separated… Not belonging to the whole!
Protestant… “In Protest” against Jesus and his Holy Catholic Body!”

**Obviously you have no idea what the Protestant Reformation was even about. It had nothing to do with protesting Jesus! In fact, most of your postings are just rants! You would seem to have no true knowledge of any Protestant denomination, and as best I can tell, you have no idea at all about what you are talking about!

**​

Originally posted by ‘SGWessells’
‘Does your Bible lack St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans?’

**The Bibles (and Scriptures) that I keep at hand for reference, consists of a collection of about 50 translations of the Bible into English (including Roman Catholic translations)(both in print and electronic form), the Latin Vulgate, 3 copies of the Torah (and most of the other Jewish writings in Hebrew), 5 (parallel) versions of the New Testament scriptures in Greek, some copies of manuscripts in Aramaic (in electronic form), both printed and electronic forms of most of the 1st and 2nd century Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, many of the Coptic documents and writings (in electronic form), and electronic copies of many of the other early church writings. I have a small theological library at my immediate disposal, access to many large and small theological libraries around the world, and I’m a registered user of the Vatican Library.
**

---

**Brother JR, OSF,

What you say about the Order of St. Francis (OSF), and the other Roman Catholic Franciscan Orders, is correct, FOR THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH! You, of all people should know that there are fellow Franciscans worldwide that are not Roman Catholics! Some are “Old Catholic”, some are “Ecumenical Catholic”, some belong to other catholic denominations (other than Roman), some are orthodox, some are Anglicans and Episcopals, some are Ecumenical Franciscans (such as the OEF and the Ecumenical Order of Charity), and there are many other Franciscan orders worldwide. One thing that all have in common is the love, respect for, and the desire to follow the spirit teachings of Saint Francis and St. Claire.

Following is a segment from the WikiPedia:
**
*“The Secular Franciscan Order (SFO) is a community of Catholic men and women, of any of the Rites in communion with Rome (Latin, Byzantine, Melkite, etc.), in the world who seek to pattern their lives after Christ in the spirit of St. Francis of Assisi)”…

“The Holy See has entrusted the pastoral care and spiritual assistance of the Secular Franciscan Order (SFO), because it belongs to the same spiritual family, to the Franciscan First Order (Friars Minor) and Franciscan Third Order Regular (TOR).”

---

That’s for the Roman Catholic Church and a few others in communion with Rome. For the Anglican Communion, following is a segment from the “Third Order Secular Franciscans” (TSSF) website in the USA…
**
*“In 1205, Francis of Assisi was called by God to rebuild the Church. Early in his ministry, Francis recognized the need to include people from all walks of life within his movement of reform and renewal. The work of following Christ in humility, love and joy, which is the vocation of all Christians, could not be restricted to the traditional life of the Friars and Sisters. This was true in the thirteenth century and it remains so today.”

“Today, there are estimated to be over a half-million Franciscans worldwide in the various denominations of the Christian family. Anglican Franciscans are divided a’mong five provinces worldwide. The Province of the Americas stretches from Canada to Chile to the Caribbean. It currently includes the First Order Brothers and Sisters - who live a celibate life in their respective communities - and the Third Order. The Third Order consists of men and women, single or in committed relationships, who, though following ordinary professions, are called to a dedicated life of service to our Lord through prayer, study, and work. Like the First Order, Tertiaries make a lifetime commitment to live a Rule of Life in company with the sisters and brothers in their Order.”

---

I, for example am a member of the “Order of Ecumenical Franciscans” (OEF). Our order consists of Roman Catholics, Ecumenical and Old Catholics", Anglican’s and Episcopal’s, and currently about 40 other Christian Denominations. Many of us meet regularly (and at annual meetings) with various groups of the Friars Minor, SFO, the TSSF, and various other Franciscan groups for the purpose of exchanging news and ideas, and for fellowship with our brothers and sisters. We are members of JPIC. We all accept each other as Franciscans, we all try to follow in the footsteps of Christ, and we all share in our work pursuing peace, charity, justice, and the integrity of creation!

I hope this makes sense to you. We are not disbelievers, or your enemies. We are brothers and sisters pursuing the same goals and dedicating our lives to praising God and loving His wonderful creation!

Peace brother, and may God bless us all.

Rev. Phil

**

 

[JReducation]

---

**Brother JR, OSF,

What you say about the Order of St. Francis (OSF), and the other Roman Catholic Franciscan Orders, is correct, FOR THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH! You, of all people should know that there are fellow Franciscans worldwide that are not Roman Catholics! Some are “Old Catholic”, some are “Ecumenical Catholic”, some belong to other catholic denominations (other than Roman), some are orthodox, some are Anglicans and Episcopals, some are Ecumenical Franciscans (such as the OEF and the Ecumenical Order of Charity), and there are many other Franciscan orders worldwide. One thing that all have in common is the love, respect for, and the desire to follow the spirit teachings of Saint Francis and St. Claire.

Following is a segment from the WikiPedia:
**
“The Secular Franciscan Order (SFO) is a community of Catholic men and women, of any of the Rites in communion with Rome (Latin, Byzantine, Melkite, etc.), in the world who seek to pattern their lives after Christ in the spirit of St. Francis of Assisi)”…

I wouldn’t use Wikipedia to explain the Rule and Constitutions of the Franciscan family. This whole translation is so off it’s misleading.

While I’m very glad that you want to follow our Holy Father Francis, I’m also very sad that you’re misrepresenting him. Our Holy Father demands complete submission to the Pontiff. It is very clear in his rule. One must be a Catholic and he’s not speaking of catholic with lower case “c”, but Roman Catholic.

I’m afraid that you’re mistaken about the other Franciscan communities. The Society of St. Francis is an Episcopalian society that has its roots in the 19th century, by their own admission. They deliberately refrain from profession obedience to any of the five rules that our Holy Father wrote. They don’t even call themselves an order. They are very honest. They are a society that has an attachment to St. Francis, but they acknowledge, that they are not part of the Franciscan family.

** Francis created the Order within the Catholic Church, so Catholic Franciscans have an 800 year heritage of Franciscans within their church, while the Episcopalian/Anglican tradition is briefer – within the last 100 years.** s-s-f.org/ They make no claim to having Franciscan succession.

There are no Franciscans outside of the Latin Church, even among the Catholics. The Franciscan family is a Latin Catholic family. Those Catholics who belong to the Oriental Churches, must submit to the Patriarchate of Rome, to which the Franciscan order submits. While we have houses with brothers who are Chaldeans, Ukranians, Maronites and other Oriental Catholics, they do not operate under the jurisdiction of those Patriarchs. Those houses operate under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of the West, which is the Bishop of Rome.

In addition, Francis makes it very clear that the brothers must obey those who are canonically elected his successors. He makes no allowances for anyone to be elected a successor without canonical status. While I am glad that you love our Holy Father, I am sad that you ignore his commands and wishes.

Are we brothers? Yes. We are sons of the same Heavenly Father. Are we brothers in religion? No. We are not both sons of the same Seraphic Father. The Seraphic Father founded one family under the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church. He deliberately introduced into his rule something that had not been introduced into the rules of Benedict, Augustine, Basil or Albert. In his rule, he explicitly mentions that the brothers must profess the Roman Catholic faith.