Separated Brethren or Anathema?

[goout]

Ok. Either way the ignorance we’re talking about here is ignorance of the gospel-of the fullness of truth of the Christian message. That’s the starting point that people need to hear. What we do with that from there on will vary for reasons such as those you’ve stated. In the end God judges by the heart, which He alone knows with perfect clarity.

yes I didn’t make it clear that I was just taking off on what you said.

 

[steve-b]

Yes, I don’t disagree with this. But ignorance can be permanent depending on various things such as our level of maturity, intelligence, opportunity to gain knowledge of the gospel, etc.

EXACTLY.

People with low IQ can’t process any of this properly.

fhansen:

But, yes, all humans are obliged to overcome acedia-and seek the truth as best they can with whatever they’re given. I think the Parable of the Talents sheds light on this.

Except, THAT parable wasn’t based on IQ. the one with the least amount of talent, buried his talent rather than put it to work. And he paid for that decision.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but there was also another servant who did less than the most productive one-but who was nonetheless considered to have acted rightly. I think it just means, again, that God gives the grace; we do the best we can with the abilities we have. The wicked and lazy servant failed to do that.

 

[steve-b]

Yes, but there was also another servant who did less than the most productive one-but who was nonetheless considered to have acted rightly. I think it just means, again, that God gives the grace; we do the best we can with the abilities we have. The wicked and lazy servant failed to do that.

And excuse(s) weren’t heard, as in they didn’t work.

 

[Hodos]

I think the Parable of the Talents sheds light on this.

??? Sheds light on what exactly?

 

[Wannano]

Yes, due to ignorance. The Church has always held that ignorance can reduce culpability. Individuals can be divisive, heretical, schismatic, etc, but aren’t necessarily so just by virtue of being outside of the Church in some capacity.

I appreciate all the comments you guys have given. My understanding is that only when a non-Catholic receives the revelation and comes to believe that only the Catholic Church has the complete Truth and believes that to be true but still refuses to enter in to it, is he in danger in the eyes of the CC. It is really based on the conviction of the person.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

I think the Parable of the Talents sheds light on this.

??? Sheds light on what exactly?

On the fact that God graces us differently, and we all have differing abilities and backgrounds to begin with. Then He expects us to “invest” what we’ve been given, doing the best we can with it. Luke 12:48 also applies:
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Time is one of those variables. Some die right after baptism. The thief on the cross didn’t have even that-he had only the opportunity to express his faith in Jesus.

 

[Hodos]

When you speak of the parable of the Talents, are you talking about Matthew 25?

 

[fhansen]

deleted post

 

[fhansen]

Yes, Matt 25:14-30, sometimes called the Parable of the Talents

 

[steve-b]

My understanding is that only when a non-Catholic receives the revelation and comes to believe that only the Catholic Church has the complete Truth and believes that to be true but still refuses to enter in to it, is he in danger in the eyes of the CC. It is really based on the conviction of the person.

here’s what the CC teaches (2 links for context) Both Docs from Vat II

From Vat II and the document Lumen Gentium November 21 1964

Excerpt for space

“Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

"They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. … He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity…"

Re: “charity” Division from the Church is such an offense (sin) against charity.

And, “whosoever” covers everyone not just Catholics

Also

Re: Separated brethren, from: DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

“It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective - the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ. It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father’s love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit”…

Given in Rome at St. Peter’s, November 21, 1964

Re: separated brethren

Bottom line being separated from the "one and only Church of Christ" is against what Jesus prayed for… therefore, division needs to end for the sake of those separated

 

[adamhovey1988]

Someone can hold a heresy and not be heretical. For instance, someone that is raised Presbyterian and believes that baptism can be done to a child, but believes that baptism is mainly symbolic is not heretical. A Catholic that denies that someone undergoes a real change in baptism and thinks it should only be conferred on children WOULD be heretical. I hope that helps.