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brotherjoe
Guest
My wife and I are very unhappy and I suspect we may have very god grounds to have an annulment considered. Can we find out before we decide to get separated?
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1ke
Guest
No.
I suggest you go talk to your priest. You are approaching your marriage in the wrong manner. If you believe a defect of consent or intent existed when you exchanged vows you can renew your consent privately, right now, with the correct content and intent and your marriage becomes valid.
I suggest you go talk to your priest. You are approaching your marriage in the wrong manner. If you believe a defect of consent or intent existed when you exchanged vows you can renew your consent privately, right now, with the correct content and intent and your marriage becomes valid.
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revert_jen
Guest
I’m pretty sure that the Church refuses to look at annulments for people who are not already divorced. I heard there were some problems with “alienation of affection” or something at one point in the last century, but that was hearsay so I don’t know for sure whether that was true.
I do know that in my diocese they won’t look at you until after the divorce.
I agree with 1ke–talk to a priest. If you ensure the validity of your marriage, you may receive additional graces that help you to have a better marriage as well.
–Jen
I do know that in my diocese they won’t look at you until after the divorce.
I agree with 1ke–talk to a priest. If you ensure the validity of your marriage, you may receive additional graces that help you to have a better marriage as well.
–Jen
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Irishgal49
Guest
I’m going to be Miss Contrary here,
I would not encourage any convalidation, etc without talking in detail to a priest about what problems you’re having.
I had some people who encouraged this for me and I am SO glad that I didn’t. There were severe problems that involved things that could not be resolved and would have made my situation worse. The priest in my case conferred. Since were married outside the Church it was a simple thing to get it declared null. But each situation is different.
You cannot ask for or apply for anything without a civil divorce. Talk to a priest and be totally honest about everything.
God bless,
Lorrie
I would not encourage any convalidation, etc without talking in detail to a priest about what problems you’re having.
I had some people who encouraged this for me and I am SO glad that I didn’t. There were severe problems that involved things that could not be resolved and would have made my situation worse. The priest in my case conferred. Since were married outside the Church it was a simple thing to get it declared null. But each situation is different.
You cannot ask for or apply for anything without a civil divorce. Talk to a priest and be totally honest about everything.
God bless,
Lorrie
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Actaeon
Guest
Instead of spending your effort trying to find grounds for an annulment, perhaps you can look at ways to make your relationship better. After all, the vows of marriage are about being of one body in all times: good and bad. If you are unhappy, work on being happy together.
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SerraSemper
Guest
People have the right to know what their rights are in the Church… and one of their rights is the ability to challenge the validity of their marriage. Since the OP did not discuss the reasons why validity might be in question, such a reason could potentially be very serious or very trivial. Whatever the case is, the OP can always talk to an expert about this and see whether the circumstances fall under the typical grounds for an annulment.
Yes, while it is true that one could work with a counselor… there are situations where it might not be the right thing to do. It all depends on circumstances. What’s to prevent the OP from going both to a canon lawyer (at the Tribunal or elsewhere) and to a counselor? Why not let the OP be informed rather than potentially be trapped in a situation that could be rectified with professional advice and insight?
Yes, while it is true that one could work with a counselor… there are situations where it might not be the right thing to do. It all depends on circumstances. What’s to prevent the OP from going both to a canon lawyer (at the Tribunal or elsewhere) and to a counselor? Why not let the OP be informed rather than potentially be trapped in a situation that could be rectified with professional advice and insight?
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SerraSemper
Guest
This is not responsible advice. The last thing needed is more complications in a situation where the OP is unhappy. As a Judge (and I do work for various Tribunals as judge, advocate, defender, etc.), I did not care for the complications that arose because someone got the bright idea that convalidation was magically going to fix the daily beatings and porn addiction and so on because God would bless the marriage and it would be all right!
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joanofarc2008
Guest
You should speak to your priest about your concerns. He will be able to address your exact concerns as to validity and the issues that are causing the unhappiness. We have no way of knowing if they are trivial or severe which is why a priest in person would be the best person to speak to about this matter.
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Actaeon
Guest
We can only work with what we are told, and when what we are told is that a couple is “unhappy”, I think we can all agree that that alone does not constitute grounds for a declaration of nullity… and in cases where people think “unhappy” alone = that’s the end of the marriage, it is never bad advice to point people into preservation of the bond of the sacrament. We cannot be quick to dismiss people’s vows as defunct simply because they say they are “unhappy”
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SerraSemper
Guest
They didn’t just say that they were unhappy, but they said that they suspect they have good reason to think they might be eligible for an annulment. Unhappiness alone does not constitute grounds for a declaration of nullity… but could be a reason to investigate it. Look, canon lawyers have the obligation of seeing whether it is possible for reconciliation can take place. Thus, there should be no problem with someone checking with one and discussing their situation.
Preservation of the bond of the sacrament??? Um, if it is valid, it is valid. You don’t know it is valid, nor do the couple in question. That’s my point. We have the right to challenge it and to know what the Church looks at to determine if a valid marital bond does not exist whether natural or sacramental. Are you aware of the fact that the Catholic Church considers sacramental and natural marriages to be so important that we actually do our best to protect the bond of marriage (if it exists) by appointing a canon lawyer in annulment trials to defend the bond of marriage? This canon lawyer knows the law on marriage and is obligated to preserve any bond of marriage that might exist. Thus, it may be premature to suggest that talking to a canon lawyer about the possibility of an annulment is going against the preservation of the bond of the sacrament.
I did not dismiss the vows as defunct. I said to go to the experts. If the expert determines that there’s likely little ground… they will say so. I suggest going to an expert and not a random priest because priests have their own agendas when it comes to marriage and do not always believe in the Church’s teachings on marriage and annulments (I speak for priests on all positions of the spectrum, both left and right).
Some priests/deacons are merely ignorant about some aspects of marital law and thus can give flawed advice because of this ignorance. For example, the assumption that a marriage has to be SACRAMENTAL to be valid is incorrect but has been voiced to me by various clerics over the years. Let me be blunt here… Priests have a semester course or two in canon law in seminary at most and that’s it. They are not experts on marriage law nor are they trained professional counselors by being priests. Canonists are trained to look at all the parties involved and consider their respective rights. They often (as well as some priests) have extensive connections with marriage counselors and can give appropriate referrals.
I might add that canonical separation could be in the deck of cards. Again, there are good reasons for talking to a canon lawyer who can guide a person through different possibilities (reconciliation, counseling, separation, annulment, etc.) based on that person’s circumstances.
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Irishgal49
Guest
That is true but recommending convalidation without knowing the facts is irresponsible. If there has been violence, extreme sexual abuse, etc it’s not good to recommend these things.
Talking to a priest is the best advice and we should all pray for them.
Lorrie
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Irishgal49
Guest
Excellent advice. What are people afraid of? That if they find out that they have a case for annullment that they will run away? I am divorced (and anulled) and I don’t know of anyone who just says, “OK I’m in a funk today, think I’ll chuck my marriage.”
I am fortunate, my pastor IS a canon lawyer. He serves on the tribunal 2 days a week on the more difficult cases.
I would LOVE to have a degree in canon law. I wonder if laity can do that or if that’s reserved for priests. I would totally love studying canon law.
Lorrie
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DL82
Guest
To the OP - if your marriage was performed in the normal way (in the Catholic Church, with all the relevant permissions, between two consenting adults who were not bound by previous marriages or religious vows) then even if your marriage ‘could’ be annulled, it is still considered presumptively valid. You should always proceed on the basis that your marriage is valid, until things reach a stage where the opposite conclusion is inescapable. This is one of the reasons the Church considers civil divorce to be a prerequisite for even considering cases.
Of course, I do not know your situation, but I wonder if the thought ‘maybe I could get an annulment’ is part of the problem you are experiencing? I wonder what would happen if you made the effort, mentally, to take that off the table?
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Phemie
Guest
There are two places to study canon law in North America. Washington, D.C. & Ottawa, Ontario, and they do accept lay students.
Here’s where you might find answers to some of your questions:
canonlaw.info/a_canonlawyersarearent.htm
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SerraSemper
Guest
Exactly. And not to hijack the thread… I got my degree as a laywoman in Rome at the Angelicum, and am getting my JCD there currently as a consecrated virgin. It was less expensive for me (who was footing the bill) to do it overseas than either in Washington DC or Ottawa.
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brotherjoe
Guest
Good Heavens! I didn’t mean to start an argument!
Thanks for everyone’s concern. There are serious issues in our marrieage that predaed our wedding, which I thought could be fixed and now think that is not possible. New and major complications have arisen since. I will seek a qualified opinion as to whether, taken together all this constitutes a valid impediment or whatever the term is, then serious joint prayer and at least some further counsel will be on the table. Thanks again!
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1ke
Guest
Yes. I realize that.
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dans0622
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Hello,
At the risk of turning this into an esoteric, canon law discussion… My understanding of the canons on simple convalidation leads me to conclude that there really wouldn’t be any procedural complications introduced by a “private/secret convalidation,” which is what I think “1ke” was suggesting.
For example, if the original exchange of consent was ineffective because of a defect in consent and that defect can be proven, the “convalidation” would have to have been done in accord with canonical form (cf. c. 1159). Well, let’s say it actually is proven via a nullity case. That would mean that a private (re)expression of consent wouldn’t make any difference. The marriage was invalid and the only way to have made it valid was to marry in accord with canonical form.
If the defect of consent can’t be proven, the presumption of validity would stand and the “convalidation” wouldn’t have accomplished anything other than being some sort of private renewal of vows.
For a convalidation done according to canonical form, I suppose the tribunal would have to look at both exchanges of consent. Personally, I have yet to see a case where a couple publicly convalidated a marriage they thought was invalid because of a defect of consent. But, if the relationship is as bad as the one you described and that’s the way it continued, it would be pretty easy to see a lack of critical evaluation there. It would be more work but…we lay canon lawyers need jobs.
Dan
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SerraSemper
Guest
Dan- I would in general agree with what you’ve written. I have handled some extremely contorted cases in which there were several points of consent and sanations, and it was that experience of sifting through the ecclesiastical “bandaids” that the couples wanted to solve their marital problems that prompted my remark. [No disrespect to the Church meant here… I just mean that people see weddings/convalidations as magic wands or something that all of a sudden transforms their lives as a couple into a functioning relationship without realizing sometimes putting a bandaid on cancer doesn’t work or that the bandaid must be accompanied by some pretty hard physical therapy.] I don’t want to drift from the OP’s original intent here… so I’ll sign off on this thread. Great to virtually meet you, Dan.
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