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Cadellin
Guest
When Jesus said, ‘render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s’ was he teaching us to maintain a separation of church and state?
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Michael19682
Guest
A related verse, perhaps,When Jesus said, ‘render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s’ was he teaching us to maintain a separation of church and state?
Mt 6:24
God and Money. 24* “No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
IMHO, Probably was advising a safe passage on the roads of Rome. I remember that being “an enemy of Caesar” was the political expedient used against him. Since the pagans eventually became Christians, maybe that is an endorsement by God of carefully merging the two.
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Cmaker3
Guest
Here’s my take on this… and I’m not an expert at this since I’m new at this.
Jesus is saying that we must give to man (Ceasar) what belongs to him and give to God what belongs to God.
The phrase “separation of Church and State” is an American thing and is a modern-day perversion of the intent of the Founding Fathers as stated in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The words “separation”, “church” or “state” are not found in the First Amendment or the Constitution or in any official founding document of the U.S.
I could say a little bit more but the discussion will become political.
Be blessed! Peace.
Cmaker3
Jesus is saying that we must give to man (Ceasar) what belongs to him and give to God what belongs to God.
The phrase “separation of Church and State” is an American thing and is a modern-day perversion of the intent of the Founding Fathers as stated in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The words “separation”, “church” or “state” are not found in the First Amendment or the Constitution or in any official founding document of the U.S.
I could say a little bit more but the discussion will become political.
Be blessed! Peace.
Cmaker3
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devoutchristian
Guest
No. He was teaching us to maintain the Church and the state as seperated institutions, but the state should still support the Church and the Church should still recognize the authority of the state.When Jesus said, ‘render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s’ was he teaching us to maintain a separation of church and state?
It was in a letter from Jefferson. The founding fathers were secularists, even if they weren’t as radical as modern secularists.The phrase “separation of Church and State” is an American thing and is a modern-day perversion of the intent of the Founding Fathers as stated in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The words “separation”, “church” or “state” are not found in the First Amendment or the Constitution or in any official founding document of the U.S.
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Cmaker3
Guest
Which letter of Jefferson says this please? And was it an official document? I beg to disagree that the founding fathers were secularists. Most of them were not. And America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.No. He was teaching us to maintain the Church and the state as seperated institutions, but the state should still support the Church and the Church should still recognize the authority of the state.
It was in a letter from Jefferson. The founding fathers were secularists, even if they weren’t as radical as modern secularists.
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OxygenMan
Guest
I believe it was a letter to a Baptist church, telling them that the government would not interfere with their operations.Which letter of Jefferson says this please? And was it an official document? I beg to disagree that the founding fathers were secularists. Most of them were not. And America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
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JoanREDirector
Guest
If you want a good, but easy to read, book on the subject try “Render Unto Caesar” by Archbisop Charles J. Chaput.
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devoutchristian
Guest
If the founding fathers weren’t secularists then how did the establishment clause get passed?I beg to disagree that the founding fathers were secularists. Most of them were not. And America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
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Cmaker3
Guest
Exactly what the intent contained in the First Amendment meant. The first and second clause of the First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”I believe it was a letter to a Baptist church, telling them that the government would not interfere with their operations.
Jefferson was probably telling the Baptist church the “go ahead” signal. And while I think that we are clearly straying away from the original question posted on this thread, the phrase “Separation of Church and State” is being used to take away religion (especially Christianity) from schools and governments (local or otherwise).
And if Civics is still being taught in schools, which ended decades ago, it will clearly tell us that it is (or was) the State’s responsibility to provide for education. We have instead given control to the federal government (something that is not in the Constitution). The Holy Bible was part of the books used in schools in the 1800s which taught morality (and all the goodies that came with it forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/smile.gif). Aren’t you wondering why there is a slide in morality today? Fortunately it is making a comeback [www.bibleinschools.net]](www.bibleinschools.net]).
Be blessed! Peace!
Cmaker3
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Ordway
Guest
IMO, no. There are laws we need to follow that are established by Governments, schools, places of employment, etc., that need to be followed (even while maybe working to change them). Respect of authority is important, and if it is not morally wrong the right action is to obey the laws. Giving what is required of us.When Jesus said, ‘render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s’ was he teaching us to maintain a separation of church and state?
Everything is for God, even following (and working to correct) laws establshed by Government.
Jesus reply was well crafted, and was a response to an attempt to have him challenge the authority of Caesar and thus have charges brought against him. The answer he gives is also an example of what he is stating, as the answer prevents charges from being brought against him for challenging Caesar and he stills stays faithful to God.
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Cmaker3
Guest
The Establishment Clause came about because the Founders were seeking to prevent what they had experienced under Great Britain: the legal establishment by the national government of a single religious denomination in exclusion of all others (whether Catholic, Anglican or any other).If the founding fathers weren’t secularists then how did the establishment clause get passed?
This intent can be found in the Congressional Record (required by the Constitution in Art. 1, Sec. 5, par. 3) which contains all the official words and acts that occur in the congressional chambers. You will need to go over the records from June 8 to Sept. 25, 1789, which include the discussion of the ninety Founders in the first federal Congress who framed the First Amendment.
Be Blessed! Peace!
Cmaker3
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devoutchristian
Guest
There intention is irrelevant to the fact that they were supporting secularism.The Establishment Clause came about because the Founders were seeking to prevent what they had experienced under Great Britain: the legal establishment by the national government of a single religious denomination in exclusion of all others (whether Catholic, Anglican or any other).
This intent can be found in the Congressional Record (required by the Constitution in Art. 1, Sec. 5, par. 3) which contains all the official words and acts that occur in the congressional chambers. You will need to go over the records from June 8 to Sept. 25, 1789, which include the discussion of the ninety Founders in the first federal Congress who framed the First Amendment.
Be Blessed! Peace!
Cmaker3
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Cmaker3
Guest
It is quite unfortunate that you think this way but I respect that in the same light that you respect my beliefs too.
I guess that was a healthy discussion and let’s leave it at that. Once again we are moving away from what was originally asked from in this thread.
Have a great one and may God always be with us in our journeys in seeking for truth… a very rare commodity these days.
I guess that was a healthy discussion and let’s leave it at that. Once again we are moving away from what was originally asked from in this thread.
Have a great one and may God always be with us in our journeys in seeking for truth… a very rare commodity these days.
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devoutchristian
Guest
That my beliefs about the subject don’t violate the law of non-contradiction?It is quite unfortunate that you think this way
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Genesis315
Guest
Caesar is not exempt from giving to God what is God’s. Christ is the King of kings, and all rulers must treat Him as such.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Exactly.Caesar is not exempt from giving to God what is God’s.
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Cmaker3
Guest
No. I meant about your beliefs that the Founding Fathers were secularists which they are not. But as I earlier mentioned you’re entitled to your own beliefs.That my beliefs about the subject don’t violate the law of non-contradiction?
I see that this thread falls under Philosophy. I’m afraid that I’m just an ordinary man who only seeks for truth.
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JimG
Guest
No. He was simply avoiding answering a trick question intended to entrap him.When Jesus said, ‘render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s’ was he teaching us to maintain a separation of church and state?
His questioners asked whether or not it was legal [under Jewish law]] to pay taxes to Caesar. They wanted a yes or no reply.
If He said yes, he would brand himself as a bad Jew, willing to toss over the Law of God in favor of the Roman law.
If He said no, he would brand himself as an insurrectionist, advocating civil disobedience by Jews.
The people asking the question knew that there was no good answer. It was like asking, “When did you stop beating your wife?”
He asked for a coin from the questioners. They produced a coin. It had Caesar’s image on it. That showed that they already accepted rule by Caesar. His reply tells us nothing. It doesn’t say what is Caesar’s. We already know that everything is God’s.
He evaded the question–something He was adept at doing when the need arose.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
At the Constitutional Convention, 1787, James Madison recorded the following remarks made by Benjamin Franklin to the President of the Convention:
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Government by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
"I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”
Mr. Sherman seconded the motion.
The motion was generally supported in principle, with several reservations, but it failed to carry when it was realized that the Convention had no funds to arrange for the carrying out of it.
Clearly, the Founders did not mean to ban religious sentiments from being displayed in public forums.
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Government by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
"I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”
Mr. Sherman seconded the motion.
The motion was generally supported in principle, with several reservations, but it failed to carry when it was realized that the Convention had no funds to arrange for the carrying out of it.
Clearly, the Founders did not mean to ban religious sentiments from being displayed in public forums.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Did the founding fathers want to establish an official religion? No. Then they were secularists. It’s that simple.No. I meant about your beliefs that the Founding Fathers were secularists which they are not.
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