Separation of church and state

[Thinkingaloud]

Hi,

I’m doing some background reading for an essay on the subject of the modern application of the doctrine of the separation of church and state. I’ve been focussing mainly on this issue from a Reformed perspective but am seeking to understand the wider Christian view too. Do you know any good books from a catholic perspective?

Thanks

 

[Pugsly]

Hi,

I’m doing some background reading for an essay on the subject of the modern application of the doctrine of the separation of church and state. I’ve been focussing mainly on this issue from a Reformed perspective but am seeking to understand the wider Christian view too. Do you know any good books from a catholic perspective?

Thanks

“Worshipping the State” by Bejamin Wiker

This book, in one or two chapters. goes into the history and establishment of the modern idea of seperation of Church and State.

 

[pira114]

There is nothing in the Constitution that demands nor declares a separation of church and state. Only in a letter written by Ben Franklin.

 

[zro_x]

There is nothing in the Constitution that demands nor declares a separation of church and state. Only in a letter written by Ben Franklin.

There is also nothing in the constitution that declares America as a Christian nation. The only supporting document we have for that idea is a letter written by Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Thinkingaloud]

“Worshipping the State” by Bejamin Wiker

This book, in one or two chapters. goes into the history and establishment of the modern idea of seperation of Church and State.

Thanks Pugsly., looks a good book,. I’ll check it out

 

[Thinkingaloud]

There is nothing in the Constitution that demands nor declares a separation of church and state. Only in a letter written by Ben Franklin.

A Christian nation and the separation of church and state are not necessarily opposed. I happen to agree with both. It depends which model of separation you believe in.

A major catholic work on the relationship between the two would seem to be Augustine’s “City of God” - Defoinately one I will need to read

 

[Genesis315]

“Studies in Political Morality” by Jeremiah Newman has some very good chapters presenting Catholic principles on this topic (the books deals with a few different political questions from the Catholic viewpoint). I highly recommend it on this particular topic.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

There is nothing in the Constitution that demands nor declares a separation of church and state. Only in a letter written by Ben Franklin.

Correction: Thomas Jefferson wrote the letter.

Unfortunately, this line has been completely misunderstood by a particular political group in America. The Danbury Baptist Church, to whom Jefferson was writing, were concerned that the government (or least elected officials) would work end religion in daily life. Jefferson sought to ease their minds by assuring them that the 1st Amendment would ensure that government could make no law against religion & the free practice thereof.

Thus, it was not a wall separating the Churches from interfering with the State, but a wall separating the State from interfering with the Churches.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Alberti
**
Thus, it was not a wall separating the Churches from interfering with the State, but a wall separating the State from interfering with the Churches. **

Much as Henry VIII (the State) had interfered with the Catholic churches by turning many of them into the Church of England with himself as supreme pontiff.

 

[pira114]

Correction: Thomas Jefferson wrote the letter.

Unfortunately, this line has been completely misunderstood by a particular political group in America. The Danbury Baptist Church, to whom Jefferson was writing, were concerned that the government (or least elected officials) would work end religion in daily life. Jefferson sought to ease their minds by assuring them that the 1st Amendment would ensure that government could make no law against religion & the free practice thereof.

Thus, it was not a wall separating the Churches from interfering with the State, but a wall separating the State from interfering with the Churches.

Thanks for the correction. I knew that. Don’t know why I said the wrong guy. Lol.

 

[TomD123]

From a Catholic perspective, the separation of Church and state is objectively not ideal…although it may be necessary if the only other option is the unity of the state and a false religion.

From a Catholic perspective it is actually ideal that a Country is officially Catholic.

 

[Shin]

Try reading Pope St. Pius X’s, ‘Vehementor Nos’, and doing searches on that sort of material, you will find the writings about how it is always good for God to be a part of something, and never good for Him not to be.

Since our purpose for existence is to know, love, and serve God, and our life here determines our salvation, if the state is not supportive, it is against, there is ultimately no neutral position, it is an illusion of sorts that such a position truly exists.

When the State is very strongly against God, the idea of “neutrality” can seem like a positive because it moves away from direct persecution, but it is always so as a lesser evil. A lesser evil because, lack of support, is still an objective sin of neglect, or lack of doing what is a duty.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to be silent, to do nothing.

 

[cornbread_r2]

If you (the OP) use any quotations from the founding fathers make sure that they come from reputable sources. There is an incredible amount of misinformation in circulation due in large part to the efforts of David Barton.

 

[Genesis315]

.

From a Catholic perspective it is actually ideal that a Country is officially Catholic.

I would quibble with this a bit. The ideal is that the country is Catholic, period, just like the ideal is for the whole world to be Catholic. Whether a state juridically establishes Catholicism as “state religion” is not so much an issue provided the Catholic spirit is infused into the state’s mentality, laws, and juridical structures (cf. CCC 2105). A state where Catholicism is juridically established but where the laws contradict, say, the moral law, is not ideal (see Greece and Greek Orthodoxy as an example where the state religion is contradicted by the laws of the state).

 

[Thinkingaloud]

Thanks everyone for your information. The recommendations have been helpful. I appreciate it

 

[Feldwebel]

Hi,

I’m doing some background reading for an essay on the subject of the modern application of the doctrine of the separation of church and state. I’ve been focussing mainly on this issue from a Reformed perspective but am seeking to understand the wider Christian view too. Do you know any good books from a catholic perspective?

Thanks

Before Vatican II this papal statement was considered by many to be infallible.

Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura (1864):

“And from this wholly false idea of social organisation they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, especially fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by our predecessor, Gregory XVI,** insanity, namely that the liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man, and should be proclaimed by law in every correctly established society…**. Each and every doctrine individually mentioned in this letter, by Our Apostolic authority We reject, proscribe and condemn; and We wish and command that they be considered as absolutely rejected by all the sons of the Church.”

But this papal teaching was reversed by Vatican II

“The Council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person… This right to religious freedom is to be recognised in the constitutional law whereby society is governed. Thus it is to become a civil right.” (Declaration on Religious Liberty Dignitatis Humanae)

 

[LHJOHNSON]

If you (the OP) use any quotations from the founding fathers make sure that they come from reputable sources. There is an incredible amount of misinformation in circulation due in large part to the efforts of David Barton.

I think your comment on David Barton and the article you linked are one sided. If any one wants to go to wallbuilders.com/ they can judge for themselves. I have been reading and visiting the site for years and have found Mr. Barton to be a sincere Christian of good character, well studied, and meticulous in his sourcing of materials. Any accusation of an individual spreading misinformation ought to be followed by some examples. This way his reputation can be defended and his statements debated as to their accuracy. In addition every one is entitled to a mistake. That there is an incredible amount of misinformation out there we can agree on but I doubt that it is "due in a large part " to any one person. Be fair and investigate.
Thank you for your thoughtful attention. Peace be with you,LHJ

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

If you (the OP) use any quotations from the founding fathers make sure that they come from reputable sources. There is an incredible amount of misinformation in circulation due in large part to the efforts of David Barton.

I think your comment on David Barton and the article you linked are one sided. If any one wants to go to wallbuilders.com/ they can judge for themselves. I have been reading and visiting the site for years and have found Mr. Barton to be a sincere Christian of good character, well studied, and meticulous in his sourcing of materials. Any accusation of an individual spreading misinformation ought to be followed by some examples. This way his reputation can be defended and his statements debated as to their accuracy. In addition every one is entitled to a mistake. That there is an incredible amount of misinformation out there we can agree on but I doubt that it is "due in a large part " to any one person. Be fair and investigate.
Thank you for your thoughtful attention. Peace be with you,LHJ

When a publisher stops publishing your book on history because “there were some historical details included in the book that were not adequately supported” and most historians declare that same book as “the least credible history book in print,” it is time to question whether that person is worth paying attention to.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Hi,

I’m doing some background reading for an essay on the subject of the modern application of the doctrine of the separation of church and state. I’ve been focussing mainly on this issue from a Reformed perspective but am seeking to understand the wider Christian view too. Do you know any good books from a catholic perspective?

Thanks

A good summary with notes can be found in [Compendium Of The Social Doctrine Of The Church](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT), #s 421-423.