Separation of Church and State?

[Orionthehunter]

1. I am unaware of any document that says PP’s right of petition is superior to that of anyone else. I note that the example you gave was not about petition.

1. I think it is a good thing that PP does not have a superior right of petition. It is good because we strive for equality under the law.

From a previous quote: “If Planned Parenthood wants to advocate an abortion-friendly sex ed curriculum, they get to advocate their position. If an identified religious group (Catholic Church or an inter-denominational local clergy group) wants to advocate abstinance, they are precluded from making their presentation on grounds of separation of church and state.”

From Ortho:1. OK. That is right and proper under our constitution. I agree.

Ortho, having the ability to advocate to a public institution is “petitioning” as defined by the courts. PP’s right is superior in the example I described. And you are ok with it?

 

[tjmiller]

The Catholic Church’s contemporary political philosophy, the lapidary text of which may be considered Bl. Pope John XXIII’s Encyclical Pacem in Terris, considers the separation of church and state to be in the best interest of both parties. (For that matter, it also recommends the “separation of powers” w/in government itself.)

Such separation is, of course, a far cry from the “elimination of religion from public life” advocated by secularists.

 

[Ortho]

Orionthehunter:

From a previous quote: “If Planned Parenthood wants to advocate an abortion-friendly sex ed curriculum, they get to advocate their position. If an identified religious group (Catholic Church or an inter-denominational local clergy group) wants to advocate abstinance, they are precluded from making their presentation on grounds of separation of church and state.”

From Ortho:1. OK. That is right and proper under our constitution. I agree.

Ortho, having the ability to advocate to a public institution is “petitioning” as defined by the courts. PP’s right is superior in the example I described. And you are ok with it?

Sorry. I am wrong. I didn’t read your original question with the precision it deserved.

Anyone can advocate anything they want. Both PP and Catholic organizations can advocate as much as they want. Nothing stops any Catholic organization from advocating. No Catholic bishops are silenced.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Malachi4U, I don’t believe there should be a seperation of Civil Religion and State and neither did our founding fathers. In fact, September 10, 1782, Aitken received authorization from the United States Congress to commence his American printing of the Bible in English. logosresourcepages.org/Versions/1st.htm

Civil Religion is that which is common to all christian denominations.

 

[Ortho]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Malachi4U, I don’t believe there should be a seperation of Civil Religion and State and neither did our founding fathers. In fact, September 10, 1782, Aitken received authorization from the United States Congress to commence his American printing of the Bible in English. logosresourcepages.org/Versions/1st.htm

Civil Religion is that which is common to all christian denominations.

Many have ctiticized separation of church and state. How about telling us how things would work if there was not a separation? What does the population gain? What does it lose?

 

[MartyL]

tjmiller:

The Catholic Church’s contemporary political philosophy, the lapidary text of which may be considered Bl. Pope John XXIII’s Encyclical Pacem in Terris, considers the separation of church and state to be in the best interest of both parties. (For that matter, it also recommends the “separation of powers” w/in government itself.)

Isn’t it wonderful that the modern Catholics have adopted this very Lutheran position! The Latin Text of the Augsburg Confession (1530), translated into modern American English (2000), states in Article XXVIII, “Consequently, the powers of the church and civil government must not be mixed.” Of course, this was contrary Pope Leo’s politics at that time.

In Christ, but still ROFLMHO,
MartyL

John 18:36, “My kingdom is not from this world,”
Philippians 3:20,“Our citizenship is in heaven, …”

 

[katewithak]

This is a tough one to answer. The reason is that seperation of Church and state exists within the Constitution which supposedly was a secular or Protestant document. To my way of thinking, since all is God’s, there is no such thing as seperation of Church and state-only those who follow Christ and those who choose not to. Free will, you know. Much like within the Church itself, there are those who commit mortal sin and those who don’t. There are those who vote Pro Life and those who don’t, those who vote for more death penalty and those who don’t. I truly do not see a seperation of Church and state in fact, only in the abstract on the document. Most people do vote according to their religious and or/moral beliefs, not their pocketbooks as one suggested. That fact alone tells us that the state is being directed by God Himself anyway. Does this meant that everything Bush does is right? NO. That Bush is correctly interpreting the Bible? No. It just tells us that the Holy Spirit is alive and well and in the thick of it, no matter what we write in constitutions.Look at the last presidential election for example of what I’m saying- John Kerry ran both as a Roman Catholic and at the same time pro choice and we all know he writes pro choice legislation. Many CAtholics voted for him because he ran as a Catholic, many more did not because he backed pro choice legislation. He lost.And we have a literalist instead. Where is the actual in truth seperation of Church and state? I say we don’t have seperation-only saints and sinners and some are both.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Ortho:

Many have ctiticized separation of church and state. How about telling us how things would work if there was not a separation? What does the population gain? What does it lose?

I would think that depends on the church.

If it was a Hindu church, we would lose the right to eat hamburgers but gain many tasty vegetarian dishes.

If it was Pat Robertson, we’d lose our minds but get the 700 Club network TV.

If it was the Lutherans, we’d lose the right to celebrate Mass but attend many fattening potluck suppers with traditional hymns.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It has been said that the conversion of Constantine was the worse thing that ever happened to the Church; no longer were disciples made and developed - all they had to do was be born and baptized… because it was the law.

Malachi makes good points… and it begs another question: should a Christian even vote if their government and/or politicians do things contrary to the faith? Voting for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

The Levitical code was based on the fact that Israel was a theocracy. The U.S. is a democracy. Should Christians advocate theocracy, or democracy? Malachi is right: there is nothing Christian about a democracy.

 

[tjmiller]

It is a common misunderstanding that Constantine the Great made Catholic Christianity the official religion of the Western Roman Empire. That actually occurred under Theodosius, more than two generations after Constantine.

 

[O.S.Luke]

tjmiller:

It is a common misunderstanding that Constantine the Great made Catholic Christianity the official religion of the Western Roman Empire. That actually occurred under Theodosius, more than two generations after Constantine.

Then it must be a common misunderstanding in official Catholic history, too:

Constantine can rightfully claim the title of Great, for he turned the history of the world into a new course and made Christianity, which until then had suffered bloody persecution, the religion of the State. It is true that the deeper reasons for this change are to be found in the religious movement of the time, but these reasons were hardly imperative, as the Christians formed only a small portion of the population, being a fifth part in the West and the half of the population in a large section of the East. Constantine’s decision depended less on general conditions than on a personal act; his personality, therefore, deserves careful consideration. - from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, “Constantine the Great”. Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor
Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York

 

[BryPGuy89]

Malachi4U:

In the USA we take great pride in the seperation of Church and State. Obviously the Catholic Church finds it OK to combine the two. What better leader for a nation then a man who follows God and makes others follow Gods law? No abortion, etc…

Now for the Protestants. We live in a Protestant country that prides itself on seperation of church and state. What do you think of this issue?

For all of you who want a Democracy (A Republic if you’re American), when you get to heaven will you ask God to give up His political power so you can be self represented and tell Him just to stick to His religion at home? Why the difference?

I suppport seperation of church ad state, but I think in a different sence than these protestants. I think we should not be ran by religious leaders, because this will lead to bias or favoritism in decisions, but religion should not be excluded from the government in the ways people are trying to now. Religion forms ethics and morals that are necessary for people to govern, we need not be lead by a religious fanatic, but we shouldn’t exclude religion from government. Not sure if that came out right, might be confusing for others.

 

[Ortho]

BryPGuy89:

I suppport seperation of church ad state, but I think in a different sence than these protestants. I think we should not be ran by religious leaders, because this will lead to bias or favoritism in decisions, but religion should not be excluded from the government in the ways people are trying to now. Religion forms ethics and morals that are necessary for people to govern, we need not be lead by a religious fanatic, but we shouldn’t exclude religion from government. Not sure if that came out right, might be confusing for others.

Exactly how do you include religion in government?

 

[BryPGuy89]

Ortho:

Exactly how do you include religion in government?

Well people form opinions and ideas from their environment, so people live as they were raced so Christian politicians shouldn’t be handicaped for their faith. They should uphold their personal truths, but be aware of other religious and cultures and avoid being bias. I guess it isn’t direct religion in government, but it still is religion.

 

[Ortho]

BryPGuy89:

Well people form opinions and ideas from their environment, so people live as they were raced so Christian politicians shouldn’t be handicaped for their faith. They should uphold their personal truths, but be aware of other religious and cultures and avoid being bias. I guess it isn’t direct religion in government, but it still is religion.

That’s what we have today. There is nothing at all that prevents what you describe.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Ortho:

That’s what we have today. There is nothing at all that prevents what you describe.

Ah but we have people who are trying to prevent people from relying on their religious views to justify their decisions. Like the abortion, Catholic/Christian legislature and supreme court members voice their outrage and yet, many ask for non religiou reason for decision, I am asked often, why because murder is wrong, they say what makes murder wrong or who is to say it is murder, I say God in the Bible they ask for non religious, I go into ethics and morality, but their views are perverted and they don’t see the problem. Peopl today are seeking to even eradicate Christian views from government.

 

[my_agatha]

Penny Plain:

…or that crazy guy on TV who shouts all the time?

That narrows it down.

 

[Ortho]

BryPGuy89:

Ah but we have people who are trying to prevent people from relying on their religious views to justify their decisions. Like the abortion, Catholic/Christian legislature and supreme court members voice their outrage and yet, many ask for non religiou reason for decision, I am asked often, why because murder is wrong, they say what makes murder wrong or who is to say it is murder, I say God in the Bible they ask for non religious, I go into ethics and morality, but their views are perverted and they don’t see the problem. Peopl today are seeking to even eradicate Christian views from government.

Catholic judges and legislators are free to do as they choose. Nothing stops them. If someone disagrees, so what? If Catholics in office don’t take advantage of their options, it can’t be blamed on separation of church and state.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Ortho:

Catholic judges and legislators are free to do as they choose. Nothing stops them. If someone disagrees, so what? If Catholics in office don’t take advantage of their options, it can’t be blamed on separation of church and state.

Aw you missed my point, people are tyring to make it to where religious views are to not be allowed in the decision making process. There are those who want to sufficate God out of the Government in general. It is already becoming difficult to stand by a religious view solely when you are making decisions, for people will complain and the people in positions would loose their seats if it came down to it and then there would go any moral voice we had. Anti Catholic/Christian views continue to grow in our country and soon there could be a complete loss of ethical fiber in government. There isn’t anything stopping them from voicing their opinions, but many want there to be.

 

[Ortho]

BryPGuy89:

Aw you missed my point, people are tyring to make it to where religious views are to not be allowed in the decision making process. There are those who want to sufficate God out of the Government in general. It is already becoming difficult to stand by a religious view solely when you are making decisions, for people will complain and the people in positions would loose their seats if it came down to it and then there would go any moral voice we had. Anti Catholic/Christian views continue to grow in our country and soon there could be a complete loss of ethical fiber in government. There isn’t anything stopping them from voicing their opinions, but many want there to be.

I acknowledge there are folks who want God out of government.

However, this does not negate the fact that Catholic officials and voters are free to make decisions informed by their religious convictions. The fact that people complain means nothing. Let them complain.

If there is nothing stopping them from expressing their opinions, and they don’t, the problem lies with the Catholic officials, not the complainers.

What kind of person caves in simply because someone complains?