Seperation of Church and State

[Catholic4Jesus]

What is the Church’s official teaching on the “Seperation of Church and State?”

 

[ricofall]

Simple, the church does not teach a separation of church and state. Instead we bring our values to the public square. Values and morals that the Church holds dear.

 

[Usige]

Traditionally it was opposed to it. Pope Leo XIII wrote the encyclical Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae in opposition to the heresy of Americanism. This heresy touched heavily on seperation of church and state. More preciscely it concerned putting individual liberties above adherence to church teaching.

 

[Agent_Benedict]

If your teachings and beliefs come from your Church
And the foundation of State was to express teachings and beliefs
Then separation of Church and State cannot exist.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Traditionally it was opposed to it. Pope Leo XIII wrote the encyclical Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae in opposition to the heresy of Americanism. This heresy touched heavily on seperation of church and state. More preciscely it concerned putting individual liberties above adherence to church teaching.

Exactly ! And we as a nation have brought that separation to perfection…
We have removed God from almost every part of the public sphere and conciousness.

And you see where that has led us as a nation, do you not ?

 

[RPRPsych]

Exactly ! And we as a nation have brought that separation to perfection…
We have removed God from almost every part of the public sphere and conciousness.

And you see where that has led us as a nation, do you not ?

But that was inevitable, considering America’s history, and the fact that it was never a Catholic country in the first place. If separation had not prevailed, some variety of Calvinism would have become the “state religion”, and that would hardly have been better. (In fact, there is a direct relationship between an early encounter with Calvinism and a later degeneration into liberalism; consider the Netherlands.)

 

[one_truth_1]

Very interesting thought from RPRPsych, and I LOVE the Pearl Jam quote!!

 

[RPRPsych]

Very interesting thought from RPRPsych, and I LOVE the Pearl Jam quote!!

Thanks, it’s one that’s been on my mind quite often lately.

I guess I have a love-hate relationship with Calvinism: on one hand, it appears to my scientific mind as being logical, well-thought out, and lucid. On the other hand, it makes God an infinitely powerful, distant, and pitilessly “just” monster, and places us just a little above Islam as far as fatalism and free will are concerned.

Of course, America still has a lot of people who have avoided Dutch excesses, and there is a sizeable Catholic population, too, so my post is an oversimplification. It’s tough to tackle both history and theology in 150-200 words.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

Well it states in the Bible, give to Caesar what belong to Caesar and give to God what belongs to God… I’m sure if I’m wrong a hoard of people will correct me…
The state and church should be separated… just look at history and you will become convinced it should be kept seperate

 

[jimmy]

Whether the CC supports it or not, I don’t want the church to have political authority, and I don’t want the state to have religious authority. History has shown what people do when they have both, and it isn’t good.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jimmy

**Whether the CC supports it or not, I don’t want the church to have political authority, and I don’t want the state to have religious authority. History has shown what people do when they have both, and it isn’t good. **

What we see today is the encroachment of religious authority by state authority. Witness the encroachment of Catholic civil liberty to practice their faith by a government that increasingly marginalizes all Catholics as enemies of individual liberties. The time may not be far off when a Church adoption agency that will not place children in the homes of same-sex couples will be classified as violating the Constitutional rights of paired sodomites to adopt children.

Sodomites have already petitioned the right to be Scout Masters in the Boy Scouts of America. And the Boy Scouts of America are just politically correct enough to let them get away with it. At which point it would be likely that the BSA will shrink in size to a marginally surviving outfit.

 

[Julianna]

But that was inevitable, considering America’s history, and the fact that it was never a Catholic country in the first place. If separation had not prevailed, some variety of Calvinism would have become the “state religion”, and that would hardly have been better. (In fact, there is a direct relationship between an early encounter with Calvinism and a later degeneration into liberalism; consider the Netherlands.)

Interesting…

Help me understand this…

I grew up in the 60’s/70’s in MA. Attended public school. After the Pledge of Allegiance, the class had a “moment of silence”. No prayer said, just bow your head, and have a “moment of silence.” Also no corporal punishment

Moved to the south in high school. After the Pledge of Allegiance on the PA system, a student would read the “Our Father” and/or a quote from the Bible (verse of the day). Well silly me, kept reciting the “end of the Our Father”, and of course I genuflected prior to the Our Father. I got the “funniest” looks because I kept going. I was embarrassed as that was not done up north. As the days went by, I felt like I was a church service. The “moment of silence”…allowed me to practice my faith without be lead by another. I also noted that kids got smacked by the principal. (that only happened in Catholic school up north, never public school). My mother was specific in telling the principal, if my kids are a problem, call me and I’ll take care of it. I never mentioned to my parents about the morning prayer. Needless to say I was confused. And of course the kids thought I was one weird person. So I stopped the “end of the Our Father” and said it quietly to myself.

My question is…should there be a rote prayer at the beginning of school or a moment of silence? By removing the “prayer” and the verse of the day from the public schools…why couldn’t a moment of silence be used instead, make everyone happy?

How did the my story above reflect on the separation of church and state. My thoughts were, at the time, the school made the choice to assume everyone was a Baptist/Pentacostal… and my presence kind of shook things up.

This has been haunting me for years…to be quite honest. I knew enough about the south at the time to keep my mouth shut and go along to get along and get used to the strange looks and questions.

 

[Love4All]

Sodomites have already petitioned the right to be Scout Masters in the Boy Scouts of America. And the Boy Scouts of America are just politically correct enough to let them get away with it. At which point it would be likely that the BSA will shrink in size to a marginally surviving outfit.

I have heard the argument against allowing gays to be Scoutmasters put this way: I wouldn’t want a homosexual man camping out unsupervised with my young sons any more than I would want a heterosexual man camping out unsupervised with my young daughters. It isn’t a matter of pedophilia, it is a matter of attraction and temptation.

 

[Love4All]

What is the Church’s official teaching on the “Seperation of Church and State?”

The Spiritual Power and the Temporal Power ought to be distinct but not separated, i.e. not separated by ideology or purpose, and certainly not at odds. Nonetheless, clerics cannot hold public office. The ideal of Christendom, and prior to it, the Holy Roman Empire, was a partnership between Church and State. They ought to be mutually co-operative powers governing human society as a whole. There is also some overlap in their jurisdictions, and in these areas especially, co-operation is essential.

Pope Leo XIII expounded the Catholic Doctrine regarding these matters.

 

[Fairwinds]

…The ideal of Christendom, and prior to it, the Holy Roman Empire, was a partnership between Church and State. They ought to be mutually co-operative powers governing human society as a whole. There is also some overlap in their jurisdictions, and in these areas especially, co-operation is essential…

you call the HRE an ideal??? the state was a mess for most of its history. FYI, the first Catholic state in Europe was the Merovingian empire created by Clovis, in which became Catholic through forced (at sword point) conversions of its pagan and Arian Christian subjects.

people who are opposed to separating church and state make an axiomatic assumption that the state would necessarily be Catholic. this isn’t so.

in the USofA, the doctrine has protected Catholics from the state. our protestant, Orthodox, Jewish, muslim, etc., et al. friends think it protects them from Catholics.

as a Catholic, I think it would protect me from the ultra-conservative, turn back the clock to the 17th century Catholics, because once a Catholic State is in power, then its leaders will have to determine who is Catholic enough to be Catholic. eliminate the non-christians, Jews, protestants, orthodox and eventually you’d get to me.

F/

 

[CrossofChrist]

It’s against it.

The Church and state are supposed to work together, but the state isn’t supposed to work through the Church or the Church through the state. There is a certain autonomy between them, but the state should be informed by the Church to make prudent decisions.

 

[polytropos]

As someone mentioned, it’s not at all surprising that Church and State are separated in America, given its inception by Enlightenment enthusiasts and Deists. It has arguably worked out better for Catholics.

The Church can’t favor the separation of Church and State, because the informing of policy by Church teaching is obviously preferable to the opposite, from the perspective of the Church. But I think the Church has to work with what it has to work with: there is no feasible way in which the United States could cease separation of Church and State. It might be ideal if they could be harmonized, but the country is just not wholly Catholic. It couldn’t happen.

 

[Fairwinds]

It’s against it.

The Church and state are supposed to work together, but the state isn’t supposed to work through the Church or the Church through the state. There is a certain autonomy between them, but the state should be informed by the Church to make prudent decisions.

in a Catholic state, would it be prudent to let protestants evangelize by criticizing the Church?

F/

 

[CrossofChrist]

Many associate a confessional state with the Spanish Inquisition or forced conversions. And this perception is probably part of the reason why Pope John Paul II said in Ecclesia in Europe that the Church isn’t calling for a return for a confessional state. A state with an official religion of Catholicism, or a state that isn’t separated with the Church, is a state that confesses the Catholic Faith as the true Faith. And that is how it should be. But as history shows, it’s best for all if the Church doesn’t use the state for it’s own purposes, since it hurts the Church’s image and effectiveness in preaching the Gospel. And not even to mention the devastation cause to individual souls. But this freedom given to the state doesn’t mean it can in turn use the Church for it’s own purposes or express a desire to abandon and divorce itself from the true faith.

That is the “healthy secularism” Pope Benedict often mentioned when talking about Church/State relations.

 

[CrossofChrist]

in a Catholic state, would it be prudent to let protestants evangelize by criticizing the Church?

F/

Hate crime shouldn’t be allowed, but you can’t force someone into conversion. How can you force someone to love God and accept the Truth? It’s something that must happen out of one’s free choice.

I recommend reading Dignitatis Humanae. It’s very helpful. It basically says that people can’t be forced to convert to a religion, but people have a right to express their religion in public life. At the same time, traditional Church teaching regarding societies and their duties in recognizing the Church remains “untouched”.