Septuagint

[DaveD]

Can anyone tell me if it has ever been argued that a reason we accept the Greek (Septuagint) cannon of the Old Testament instead of the generally accepted Hebrew cannon is because the Holy Family used it in Egypt while they were hiding there? Could it be that Jesus himself taught the apostles that this was the inspired cannon? Just wondering. I have no opinion on this I would just like to know if it has been discussed before.

David

 

[Church_Militant]

Hebrew was a dead language even in the time of Christ (Remember that they spoke Aramaic, NOT Hebrew. Aramaic is written with Hebrew letters, but is not Hebrew) and the prevailing text of the OT was indeed the Greek Septuagint from Alexandria which contained all 46 OT books of our current Canon.

According to Gleason Archer & G.C. Chirichigno (both Protestant authors), Of the 373 OT quotes in the NT, 340 of them (about 90%) are from the Septuagint, which tells you something significant off the top. See Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey (Moody Press 1983)

I strongly recommend Beginning Apologetics # 7 from San Juan Catholic Seminars since it deals completely with the Bible. Can be got from the folks here at CA or from SJCS on their wwebsite catholicapologetics.com/

Pax tecum,

 

[DaveD]

Thanks. I’ll look at that one. Does it say anything about the Holy Family being exposed to the Greek Canon? I imagine they probably were since they were there for so long. They had to go on with life and observing the sabbath would have been high on the priority list due to the holy people in question. Is there any writings that deal with their stay in Egypt?

 

[Church_Militant]

No, that’s a first for me, but it certainly could be although I don’t see the Holy Family bringing a copy back with them since they were reputedly poor and books like that (and that would really be more like a whole library for that day) would have been beyond their means. (IMO)
Pax tecum,

 

[Thal59]

Interesting question.

Consider this: Joseph was probably elderly and was as well taught as anyone in his social class regarding scriptures via the Jewish priests and scholars. (There was no individual “bible-study” at that time as the congregation was not allowed access to scriptures. They learned from the rabbis in the synagogues which were places of study more than the places of worship we consider them today.)

Mary was “full of grace.” Did she have a divine gift of wisdom that precluded her need to study scriptures?

But most of all, there’s Jesus. The Pharisees constantly questioned His authority to teach as He apparently was never “officially tutored” in the sunagogue by a familiar and respected Rabbinical sage. They wondered where his authority to teach came from since He had no mentor. But we understand that Jesus’ authority came straight from the Father via the Holy Spirit.

This is why I say this is an interesting question. If Jesus’ authority came straight from the Father via the Holy Spirit, why would He quote the Septuagint so often? Jesus could have taught all that He needed to without any scriptures as He already taught without any “scripture mentor.” Without a mentor, He would have had no access to scriptures. So, He needed neither scriptures, nor a mentor since the Father taught Him all things directly.

If Jesus did not have access to scriptures, didn’t need them, and didn’t need a human mentor, why would He quote the Septuagint version so often, unless He were giving it His “stamp of approval.”

Thal59

 

[DaveD]

Right. I don’t think they would have owned a copy per-se. Although Our Lord is the King of Kings and recieved wealthy visitors who acknowledged that fact. I wouldn’t say its impossible that they could have had possession of some form of sacred scripture.

Owning is irrelevent. I would like to find some story or something that recounts their life in Egypt. They would have had to have heard readings from the Septuagint right? If they did why don’t we bring that up when we defend the deutorocannonicals?

 

[DaveD]

Thal59

That is incredible. By light the things you just said, the Septuagint must be considered cannonical if it was quoted so much by God himself!

Why did the Holy family go to Egypt instead of another surrounding area anyway? Why did the Angel say Egypt? What did Joseph do when he got there? Where did he stay? Who did he know? What kind of Jewish society were they in? What version of scripture was he exposed too? How would this have impacted the Lord? Or is this the impact of the Lord?

I think this is important for some reason.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Dave,

The reason we used the Septuagint canon, is because the apostles used it. They needed a Greek bible to spread God’s message in the Roman Empire, and they used the one that was current. This was the Christian Bible until Luther decided otherwise.

As for God sending the Holy Family to Egypt, this is explained in Matthew :

Joseph rose, took the child and his mother by night and went away to Egypt. Thus was accomplished the oracle of the Lord speaking through the prophet: From Egypt I called my son.

The quote is from Oseah 11,1:

When Israel was a child, I loved him and from Egypt I called my son.

God wished by this to emphasize the close link between Jesus and the people of Israel, to whom he was sent in priority.

Verbum

 

[DaveD]

Thanks Verbum.

That makes sense. Greek was a language they could use more than Hebrew. However I don’t understand the signifigance of the out of Egypt prophecy. I understand it is a reference to Exodus. But what is so important about The Lord coming out of Egypt? Could it be something to do with the passover happening in Egypt? Is the out of Egypt thing signifigant for both the scriptural ramifications and the Paschal Mystery?

Today I was in a book store on my lunch hour and came accross a book titled Lost Books of the Bible. In it is a book called First Infancy. This actually does give a story of the Holy Family in Egypt. It is pretty wild. I don’t know if there is any truth to it or not. It appears that the book was used by Netorians and Gnostics as scripture at one point. I didn’t buy it. However, I was tempted. Has anyone heard of this apocryphal text?

 

[Verbum]

Hi Dave,

There are oodles of legendary narrations on the childhood of Jesus. They are not to be taken seriously, besides the fact that they contradict each other.

You are absolutely right when you surmise that the passage from Egypt to Israel is fought with all kinds of meaning. Among other things, the passage of the Red Sea prefigures baptism, and in the Easter Vigil liturgy, the flight from Egypt is lilnked to the passage from darkness to light.

The connections thoughout the bible are huge.

Verbum

 

[porthos11]

Thal59:

If Jesus did not have access to scriptures, didn’t need them, and didn’t need a human mentor, why would He quote the Septuagint version so often, unless He were giving it His “stamp of approval.”

Thal59

I have serious doubts as to whether Jesus himself quoted from the LXX. Jesus was a practicing Palestinian, not Hellenistic, Jew, and as such, most likely quoted from the extant Hebrew texts at the time. Present anthropological studies indicate that conversation between Palestinian Jews was done in Aramaic, and Scriptures in Hebrew. The LXX was used in Diaspora synagogues.

The ones who quoted from the LXX were the New Testament authors, who rendered Jesus’ quotations with the LXX passages, since the NT authors wrote in Greek. And that should be good enough, because the NT authors quoted the LXX under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We do not need insist that Jesus quoted the LXX himself.

 

[DaveD]

Porthos,

I understand where you are coming from. I have heard the same things. However, the reason I started this thread was to inquire if the Holy Family may have been exposed to the Septuagint in Egypt during their exile there. I tend to agree more with Thal on the Greek texts. I believe they were more common than people think. The Empire at that time was highly advanced and many types of people passed through the holy land. I think we are simply unable to verify any of our views from scientific study into a region. We must have a witness of some kind. That is why I was wondering if there is any recorded history of the Lord’s stay in Egypt.

 

[Thal59]

porthos11:

I have serious doubts as to whether Jesus himself quoted from the LXX. Jesus was a practicing Palestinian, not Hellenistic, Jew, and as such, most likely quoted from the extant Hebrew texts at the time. Present anthropological studies indicate that conversation between Palestinian Jews was done in Aramaic, and Scriptures in Hebrew. The LXX was used in Diaspora synagogues.

The ones who quoted from the LXX were the New Testament authors, who rendered Jesus’ quotations with the LXX passages, since the NT authors wrote in Greek. And that should be good enough, because the NT authors quoted the LXX under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We do not need insist that Jesus quoted the LXX himself.

I understand where you are going with this. But the point I am making is that there is really no evidence that Jesus was tutored by a rabbi. (This is why the Pharisees kept questioning His authority; He was not the student of any recognized human master.) Did Jesus ever need to read scriptures? If so, when did He have the chance? The holy family may have gone to Egypt, but how would an old carpenter, young woman, or small child gain access to, or benefit from, the septuagint?

Back then, only the priests could even touch the scrolls, and even then, scholars and rabbis could only access them in the presence of the priest. Sacred scripture was not in modern-day bible form… in other words, accessible to every idiot who wants to mis-interpret them. Both the scriptures as well as the accompanying interpretation were closely guarded by the theocrats to protect them from corruption. How could Jesus, the son of a carpenter, who apparently was never a student to a human mentor, gain access to scriptures? Did He ever need to - seeing how his authority and wisdom came straight from the Father?

Did God need to study scriptures? Please recall Jesus in the temple at the age of 12 astounding the scholars!

But, if I recall, I once read some instances where Jesus quotes a prophet, such as Isaiah, but He quotes Isaiah in a way that is unique to the septuagint. Perhaps we should follow “church militant’s” suggestion…

According to Gleason Archer & G.C. Chirichigno (both Protestant authors), Of the 373 OT quotes in the NT, 340 of them (about 90%) are from the Septuagint, which tells you something significant off the top. See Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey (Moody Press 1983)

I strongly recommend Beginning Apologetics # 7 from San Juan Catholic Seminars since it deals completely with the Bible. Can be got from the folks here at CA or from SJCS on their wwebsite http://catholicapologetics.com/<<

Thal59

 

[DaveD]

Thal,

What need did the Holy family ever have of leaving their house if they had God living in it with them? Remember his is both fully human and fully divine. He lived a human life with human wants and needs. He of course is God but it is very plain in the scriptures that the Lord grew.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man. Lk 2:52

I think that Joseph went to the synagouges. I think he was holy enough to be trusted by God to raise his son. Why wouldn’t he “stoop” to reading or hearing scripture. The Jews were then and always have been very pious people when it comes to scripture. They are simply dripping with it. Maybe Jesus was raised in his home with a Septuagint favor? If so it would be an excellent thing to know. I’m sure there had to be some discussion over this. It would have actually been common knowlege. Why do people read a paragraph that spans years of time and decide nothing else happened in these peoples lives for years but what was written in that paragraph that took 15 seconds to read? The people in the Roman Empire were not stupid or lazy. They lived like we do, minute to minute. What happened in Egypt over the course of the years the Holy Family was there and how does it effect the modern Church? Does anyone out there know?

 

[Thal59]

DaveD:

Thal,

What need did the Holy family ever have of leaving their house if they had God living in it with them? Remember his is both fully human and fully divine. He lived a human life with human wants and needs. He of course is God but it is very plain in the scriptures that the Lord grew.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man. Lk 2:52

I think that Joseph went to the synagouges. I think he was holy enough to be trusted by God to raise his son. Why wouldn’t he “stoop” to reading or hearing scripture. The Jews were then and always have been very pious people when it comes to scripture. They are simply dripping with it. Maybe Jesus was raised in his home with a Septuagint favor? If so it would be an excellent thing to know. I’m sure there had to be some discussion over this. It would have actually been common knowlege. Why do people read a paragraph that spans years of time and decide nothing else happened in these peoples lives for years but what was written in that paragraph that took 15 seconds to read? The people in the Roman Empire were not stupid or lazy. They lived like we do, minute to minute. What happened in Egypt over the course of the years the Holy Family was there and how does it effect the modern Church? Does anyone out there know?

First of all…

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man. Lk 2:52<<

Here is how my bible, a revision of the Challoner -Rheims reads:

“And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and grace before God and men.”

This can be interpreted two ways. 1) Jesus “gained” wisdom and grace as He grew. 2) Jesus “had” wisdom and grace and grew in accord with their effect. I prefer the second as His grace and wisdom was shown when He was only 12. Either way one looks at it, Jesus’ grace and wisdom came directly from God, not from scriptures.

I think that Joseph went to the synagouges. I think he was holy enough to be trusted by God to raise his son. Why wouldn’t he “stoop” to reading or hearing scripture.<<

“Stoop” is a bad word here. What you are missing is an understanding of first century Jewish practices. A “lowly” carpenter such as Joseph would not been allowed to “read” scriptures, something he probably couldn’t do anyway. As a carpenter, regardless of his personal piety, he probably only spoke Aramaic. It is doubtful he could even read or write it, much less read, write, and speak either Hebrew or Greek.

To the Pharisees and scribes, the Torah (law), Nevi’im (prophets), AND 500 years of accumulated rabbinic interpretations together were all considered scripture! All three together. If the sage in the synagogue read from scripture (they were not obligated to let any member of the congregation actually see the writting they probably couldn’t read anyway) and then explained (interpreted) its meaning to the congregation, the congregation was then obligated to accept both the reading and the interpretation.

If Jesus “learned” scriptures from the synagogue, no one would be asking of His authority to teach as He would have been the recognized student of a recognized master. I have a tendency to believe that the Lord’s attendence in the synagogue was similar to the way it way portrayed in the movie starring Max vonSydow… in other words, Jesus listens, then stands up and either corrects the rabbi, or illuminates the readings in a way a human mind of that time couldn’t.

What happened in Egypt over the course of the years the Holy Family was there and how does it effect the modern Church? Does anyone out there know?<<

No. No one knows how long they stayed in Egypt, or what happened while there.

Thal59

 

[DaveD]

Thal,

Sorry about my sacracm. I hope you are not offended. I think you are very informed, and I wouldn’t want to offend you. I am also glad you are a Catholic and not on the other team.

I said that because I thought you were trying to belittle the Scriptures and the established religion of the day.

When you said this:

“Did Jesus ever need to read scriptures? If so, when did He have the chance? The holy family may have gone to Egypt, but how would an old carpenter, young woman, or small child gain access to, or benefit from, the septuagint?”

And this:

“Did He ever need to - seeing how his authority and wisdom came straight from the Father?”

“Did God need to study scriptures? Please recall Jesus in the temple at the age of 12 astounding the scholars?”

I used Luke 2:52 RSV-CE to illustrate that Jesus took on humanity and became like us. I know he was a special child but I thought he lived pretty much a normal childhood/early adult life.

I did not know that the Jews discriminated attendance of the synagouge and temple because of social status. I thought they wanted as many people as possible to hear the scriptures being read.

I have just always believed that since the Jews were God’s chosen people, observing the sabbath by attending the synagouge or the temple were things they must do, not things they were allowed to do. I am obviously ignorant of Jewish customs in the early Roman Empire.

Also, I know Joseph was a carpenter, but he was of the line of David. Didn’t the Jews know that?

I guess if the Holy Family never had access to the Scriptures because they were of low class and illiterate in every other language than aramaic,(I didn’t know that either) that blows the theory that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph may have been taught by the septuagint right out of the water. Ship sunk. This could not have been. The apostles chose the canon for other reasons.

Thal,

Could you give me a list of references for the facts you presented me with? I would like to study this in private. I want to know about these things.

 

[Thal59]

DavidD: (This reply is too long, so I will post it in two parts.)

Sorry about my sacracm. I hope you are not offended. I think you are very informed, and I wouldn’t want to offend you. I am also glad you are a Catholic and not on the other team.<<

Don’t worry about it. I am never offended unless it is a direct personal insult. (Which I have received many times on Protestant websites.) I believe the inclusion of smiley faces was necessitated by the fact that people quite often “read” anger or venom in a person’s post when none exists. I’m one of those writers; my way of writing has a tendency to sound angry or vindictive. I am always happy to debate, and I do my best never to let anger or smuggness into a post. (Though I don’t always succeed.)

. I know he was a special child but I thought he lived pretty much a normal childhood/early adult life.<<

There is no way to know this. In fact, some of the apocraphyl works that did not make it into the canon speak of the child Jesus slaying an evil child simply by glancing at him, or taking lumps of clay, moulding it into the shape of a dove, and casting it into the air where it came to life and flew away.

I did not know that the Jews discriminated attendance of the synagouge and temple because of social status. I thought they wanted as many people as possible to hear the scriptures being read.<<

I am sorry if I misled you. I did not mean to infer that the Jews discriminated attendance. Joseph may very well have attended the synagogues. But there are a few things to consider. If you were Joseph, and you had Jesus at home, would you need to go to a synagogue and then pass on what you learned to Jesus, or would Jesus teach you? Also, even if the septuagint was the version of choice by the Alexandrian Jews in Egypt, it was probably not used much in Judea. I guess the point is that there is no way to determine how much exposure either Jesus or the apostles had to the septuagint. Either way, the “conventional” interpretation was more important to the Jews than the version of scripture. The version may change slightly, but the interpretation was handed down and preserved.

The Jews, like the Catholics, treasured both the oral and written traditions. (In fact, the Jews had two oral to one written: the basic oral which became the mishna and talmud, and the oral tradition reserved for the priests and scholars called the midrash.)

Also, I know Joseph was a carpenter, but he was of the line of David. Didn’t the Jews know that?<<

Interesting point. Maybe by that time, there were so many people who were an offshoot of David that it was not very significant. Still, I have always wondered why the miraculous birth of Jesus seemed to be forgotten in His manhood. (I always expected to see something in scripture like… "Hey, isn’t He the son of Joseph and Mary… you remember, the kid whose birth was accompanied by a star and a chorus of angels.)

I guess if the Holy Family never had access to the Scriptures because they were of low class and illiterate in every other language than aramaic,(I didn’t know that either) that blows the theory that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph may have been taught by the septuagint right out of the water. Ship sunk. This could not have been. The apostles chose the canon for other reasons.<<

I didn’t mean to infer that they never had access to scriptures. Simply that they were not exposed to them as we are to the bible. If you were a first century Jew of the lower classes, you would be more familiar with the oral interpretation than with identifying specific nuances in versions. Remember, they did not have chapters and verses to quote as we do. The point I have been trying to make is that there is no way to determine what exposure to what version of scriptures the holy family may have had, and that it is possible that Jesus didn’t need it. Certainly by the time He was 12, He was most likely teaching His parents!

But this goes back to an earlier observation. If 340 times out of 373, Jesus, and later the apostles under the influence of the Holy Spirit, quoted the Septuagint, in Judea, was this the result of scripture study - or was it the Holy Spirit’s way of planting the seed that the canon should come from the Septuagint? How did the apostles, tax collectors, fishermen, etc., become scripture scholars so quickly? The synagogue or the Spirit? If by the Spirit, then the Spirit choose the septuagint before the Church did.

 

[Thal59]

Part Two…
Thal,

Could you give me a list of references for the facts you presented me with? I would like to study this in private. I want to know about these things.<<

It is not easy finding info on Jewish traditions of the day, but the best start I can offer you is “The Jews in the Time of Jesus” by Stephen M. Wylan who is a rabbi at Temple Beth-Tikvah in Wayne, NJ. I have never highlighted a book more than this one. If you buy one and read it, I would love to chat with you via email about it as there is a lot in it we could chat about.

I am also studying modern Hebrew so I can navigate my way through Jewish websites that frequently use Hebrew or Yiddish expressions. Even a basic understanding of Hebrew helps one understand better the ways the Jews think. (The way one thinks is the way one fashions their verbal expressions.)

Keep in touch, and by all means, feel free to chat via email.

Thal59

 

[porthos11]

Thal59:

I understand where you are going with this. But the point I am making is that there is really no evidence that Jesus was tutored by a rabbi. (This is why the Pharisees kept questioning His authority; He was not the student of any recognized human master.) Did Jesus ever need to read scriptures? If so, when did He have the chance? The holy family may have gone to Egypt, but how would an old carpenter, young woman, or small child gain access to, or benefit from, the septuagint?

Back then, only the priests could even touch the scrolls, and even then, scholars and rabbis could only access them in the presence of the priest. Sacred scripture was not in modern-day bible form… in other words, accessible to every idiot who wants to mis-interpret them. Both the scriptures as well as the accompanying interpretation were closely guarded by the theocrats to protect them from corruption. How could Jesus, the son of a carpenter, who apparently was never a student to a human mentor, gain access to scriptures? Did He ever need to - seeing how his authority and wisdom came straight from the Father?

Did God need to study scriptures? Please recall Jesus in the temple at the age of 12 astounding the scholars!

Ah. I see.

Well, if Joseph and Mary had to stay in Egypt for a few years, they may have had to attend synagogue there. They may have had access to the Septuagint there (after all, Egypt was Greco-Roman at the time, and the LXX originated in Alexandria). But being poor Galileans, they may not have had the luxury of understanding Greek. They may have listened to the Hebrew or an Aramaic interpreter. But I’m wildly guessing.

As for Jesus knowledge, remember Jesus had both human and divine knowledge. As God, he knew all there was of the Scriptures to be known. As man, he had to study and learn much like the rest of them, just as he had to learn how to learn the trade of his father. But the wisdom of the divine brings out the best interpretation of his human knowledge.

 

[Thal59]

Well, if Joseph and Mary had to stay in Egypt for a few years, they may have had to attend synagogue there.<<

Possible. But there is no way to know how long they were in Egypt. I have heard from 2 months to 6 years, but no one knows.

They may have had access to the Septuagint there (after all, Egypt was Greco-Roman at the time, and the LXX originated in Alexandria). But being poor Galileans, they may not have had the luxury of understanding Greek. They may have listened to the Hebrew or an Aramaic interpreter. But I’m wildly guessing.<<

You are probably very much on the mark. Most people don’t realize that ancient Hebrew was already obsolete when Abram went to Canaan. (It was like Latin; used mostly by scholars and priests.) This is why OT is in Hebrew; it was copied and preserved by priests, scribes, and scholars the same way monks guarded the early translations of the NT.

As for Jesus knowledge, remember Jesus had both human and divine knowledge. As God, he knew all there was of the Scriptures to be known. As man, he had to study and learn much like the rest of them, just as he had to learn how to learn the trade of his father. But the wisdom of the divine brings out the best interpretation of his human knowledge.<<

A fair observation. But was Jesus a carpenter like Joseph? I don’t seem to recall any verses in the NT speaking of Jesus’ carpentry skills. Since Jesus knew early on what His vocation would be, He probably didn’t bother learning woodworking.

In fact, I can’t seem to find any reference to Jesus “learning” or being taught anything. It seems, for instance, that when Jesus and temple/synagogue are mentioned, it speaks of Jesus “teaching” there, not being taught.

I am not saying that Jesus never learned anything from people, I am simply saying there doesn’t seem to be any scriptural support for it; scripture seems to keep saying that Jesus “taught.”

Thal59