Serious Catholics

[vern_humphrey]

One thing that this culture has gotten away from is obedience, whether that be the Magisterium or children with there elders. Too often in today’s society people try to rationalize disobedience, this is a serious problem that needs to be changed.

Indeed.

In fact, I have seen posters on this forum accuse others of “blind obedience” – as if not following the Church were some kind of virtue.

 

[Aquinas74]

Indeed.

In fact, I have seen posters on this forum accuse others of “blind obedience” – as if not following the Church were some kind of virtue.

I thank God for the Sacraments and the Church God has given us, it is the spirit of obedience that shows me that in this wacky world of ours, it is the one true thing. All else will fall away, but the Church will remain.

 

[SoCalRC]

Why do I need to make a distinction? One is allowed for only the most extreme measures and one is completely forbidden.

Actually, that’s not quite true. Condoms, birth control pills, etc. are not declared to be intrinsically evil, it is the interpherence with procreation that is “intrinsically vicious” (CASTI CONNUBII, from Pope Pius XI).

But we make exceptions. For example, in 1951 Pope Pius XII said that it was acceptable to use the rhythm method if a couple had a good reason to limit the size of their family (it’s worth noting that his examples of good reasons were a bit more stringent than those used by many Catholics today.

Later, in 1958, Pius XII stated that it was legit for woman to use birth control pills for medical reasons other than contraception. The contraception would then be a side effect, permissible because of double effect.

Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II both spoke very strongly on birth control, but some permissiveness remains. See Fr. Serpa’s multiple explanations of exceptions in the Ask an Apologist forum. Even Directive 36 for health care providers, which many Catholics find controversial, is not without foundation from Rome. Pope Paul VI (who promulgated HUMANAE VITAE) gave some specific dispensations for the same theological reasons (HUMANAE VITAE refers to a loving procreative act, rape is an act of violence and terrorism and the Church appears to acknowledge that some right to self defense is appropriate).

Honestly, figuring out what to do to be obedient is the easy part. BEING obedient is the really hard part!

Actually, I agree. If the Pope specifically calls something “evil”, it is clear to me what I should do. But I still don’t understand how you decide what is optional.

For example, in the post prior to this, you referenced the “Church’s” non-negotiables. But I suspect you were referring to the ‘non-negotiables’ in CAF produced documents. With regards to voting, I can find only one list from Rome, and it contains 9 examples of non negotiables. The CAF list only fully overlaps two. The rest of the CAF’s list is a subset of two more of Rome’s examples.

So, the Church lists nine things which are examples of “moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”, which I take to mean that we are not permitted to ignore them, compromise them, or undermine them in any way.

Further, the Church states that:

“In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person.”

Which I take to mean that compromising actually erodes the society’s legitmacy in the eyes of God, because the document also notes:

The Church recognizes that while democracy is the best expression of the direct participation of citizens in political choices, it succeeds only to the extent that it is based on a correct understanding of the human person.[17] Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this principle, for otherwise the witness of the Christian faith in the world, as well as the unity and interior coherence of the faithful, would be non-existent.

The emphpasis is in the original, and the footnote refers to a teaching from the Second Vatican Council (dogma, not prudential). Notice, again, the words “cannot compromise”.

To me, this is clear. Words like “cannot compromise”, “do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”, and “what is at stake is the essence of the moral law” seem pretty clear. As is the authority, it is instructions written by our current Pope, approved by our previous Pope, and addressed specifically to me, a lay member of the Church.

But somehow serious Catholics know that out of a list of 9, only two are really important and two more are partially important. Some ‘know’ it so well, that it isn’t even a question of interpretion, it just is - inarguably Church teaching (see Fix’s post above). However, my quoting instructiosn from the Church on the matter is somehow “personal interpretation”.

As you said, obeying is the hard part, so I am curious how ‘serious Catholics’ shorten the list with such moral certainty.

 

[SoCalRC]

I thank God for the Sacraments and the Church God has given us, it is the spirit of obedience that shows me that in this wacky world of ours, it is the one true thing. All else will fall away, but the Church will remain.

I don’t worry about the Church, but I do worry about Catholicism in the US. Your point about obedience is an excellent one, but I think that it is just another symptom of a culture of moral relativism.

 

[fix]

I quote from the Holy See, you paraphrase from individual Cardinals. How do you decide when authority rests with the Pope and when it does not?

Please explain how this is so. Here is a small part of one of the quotes again:

vatican.va/roman_curia//congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

The document is from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, in the form of a Doctrinal Note, signed by both the Prefect (Cardinal Ratzinger) and the Pope (John Paul II). It is addressed to the Bishops, Catholic Politicians, and the Lay Faithful.

The document represents direct instructions to all Catholics, world wide, on voting. Where in the paragrah above (or the rest of the document), is there the slightest suggestion that there is any room for abridgement of the nine examples that follow the above portion?

And, if you ignore something that the Church, with the full authority of the Pope, has declared a moral princple that does “not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”, with the stakes of compromise being “the essence of the moral law”, how are you not embracing evil, not ‘limiting’ it?

Again, how do reconcile archbishop Myers words and the note from Cardinal Ratzinger to the bishops? Are those two heretics or disobedient?

The problem you seem to have is that the words of those two men and the words of the pope are not contradictory. You place a contradiction were not exists. You need to read the documents you cite and the words of these aother men who are loyal to the Church and understand how they are reconciled.

If you claim they cannot be reconciled then the problem is either with Church teaching or your understanding.

 

[Aquinas74]

I don’t worry about the Church, but I do worry about Catholicism in the US. Your point about obedience is an excellent one, but I think that it is just another symptom of a culture of moral relativism.

What specifically do you worry about in regards to the Church in the United States? Was Christ not obedient to the Father? is a vow of obedience not taken by Priests to there bishops? Why do you think it is a symptom of relativism?

 

[SoCalRC]

Again, how do reconcile archbishop Myers words and the note from Cardinal Ratzinger to the bishops? Are those two heretics or disobedient?

Quote them, in complete context, and we can review them. If there is, in fact, a conflict, it is potentially an accusation of heresy, or schism towards Cardinal Ratzinger. But I, personally, doubt that a contradiction exists. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the words I quoted. Although the Pope’s signiture is what gives the document authority, Cardinal Ratzinger, in signing as Prefect, is swearing that the document is true, accurate, and complete.

On the flip side, consider what you are saying. You are arguing that I must reconcile an official statement from the Holy See with your interpretation of writings from Cardinals. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? You can’t get more Catholic than the Pope. He is the undisputed moral leader of the Church and the ultimate authority on Church doctrine (see the Catechism and the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church).

 

[iamrefreshed]

Actually, I agree. If the Pope specifically calls something “evil”, it is clear to me what I should do. But I still don’t understand how you decide what is optional.

How do I put this gently? Stop letting your brain get in the way. You’re obviously a very intelligent person. Stop letting that get in the way. Jesus said ‘childlike’ for a reason.

For example, in the post prior to this, you referenced the “Church’s” non-negotiables. But I suspect you were referring to the ‘non-negotiables’ in CAF produced documents. With regards to voting, I can find only one list from Rome, and it contains 9 examples of non negotiables. The CAF list only fully overlaps two. The rest of the CAF’s list is a subset of two more of Rome’s examples.

You suspect too much. Don’t assume.

As you said, obeying is the hard part, so I am curious how ‘serious Catholics’ shorten the list with such moral certainty.

See my comments above. It’s not as complicated as you make it out to be.

 

[SoCalRC]

What specifically do you worry about in regards to the Church in the United States? Was Christ not obedient to the Father? is a vow of obedience not taken by Priests to there bishops? Why do you think it is a symptom of relativism?

I worry about God’s seeming response to our prayers for vocations. I believe that God does answer prayer, but He gives us the answer we need, not nec. the answer we want.

I worry about the level of open disdain many of the lay faithful have for our Bishops and priests here in the US. I still cannot even grasp the concept of lay members declaring themselves to be superior Catholics to people who have pursued Holy Orders and even been recognized for their efforts by Rome.

I worry about our proper care and transfer of the faith. When I went to Catholic school, we were, as students, overwhelmingly Catholic, and we were overwhelmingly taught by nuns and priests. By the time my youngest daughter went to Catholic school, almost half her classmates were not Catholic, and did have a nun or priest as a teacher until high school.

I worry about the continued plummet in our charitable giving. The dropoff after the scandals was just another blow, giving had already been dropping for years.

That last one particularly concerns me because it may be just a symptom of something bigger. I do not expect everyone to believe as I do, but I worry about the consequences of excluding Christ from our faith. That is why I am so interested in the discrepency between Rome’s Doctrinal Note and the CAF interpretation of Serious Catholicism.

I error on the side of “obey” when it comes to the Pope and Rome. Fine, accuse me of ‘inventing’ doctrine when I quote what I am striving to obey.

By attempting to wholly vote my faith, my political voice and clout is currently non-existant. But, fine, accuse me of having a ‘political agenda’.

But when a list from Rome is paired down to what is ‘important’ or ‘serious’, I really am concerned when none of the teachings that we derive directly from the Gospels makes the cut. If we reject Christ, then we should not be surprised that our youth no longer hear His call, or that our own ears are becoming deaf to our obligations.

It is actually draining to be constantly accused of being a “false Catholic” by self proclaimed “real” ones. But if the people who deride my “misguided” attempts at obedience start with the premise that we need to follow all the Church teachings, then it seems reasonable - even essential, to ask, ‘then what about these?’

Peace

 

[vern_humphrey]

I worry about the level of open disdain many of the lay faithful have for our Bishops and priests here in the US. I still cannot even grasp the concept of lay members declaring themselves to be superior Catholics to people who have pursued Holy Orders and even been recognized for their efforts by Rome.

If it bothers you that much, why don’t you stop doing it?

You brush off comments by the Holy Father by saying they are somehow incomplete and at odds with other documents. You blow off a Bishop’s teaching by saying you aren’t in his diocese.

You throw out terms like “heresy” and “schism” and “anethema” for those who disagree with you.

 

[fix]

Quote them, in complete context, and we can review them. If there is, in fact, a conflict, it is potentially an accusation of heresy, or schism towards Cardinal Ratzinger. But I, personally, doubt that a contradiction exists. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the words I quoted. Although the Pope’s signiture is what gives the document authority, Cardinal Ratzinger, in signing as Prefect, is swearing that the document is true, accurate, and complete.

On the flip side, consider what you are saying. You are arguing that I must reconcile an official statement from the Holy See with your interpretation of writings from Cardinals. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? You can’t get more Catholic than the Pope. He is the undisputed moral leader of the Church and the ultimate authority on Church doctrine (see the Catechism and the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church).

The point is you are the one who sees a contradiction. If you think there is one then you need to expalin it. I say there is no contradiction.

 

[Aquinas74]

I worry about God’s seeming response to our prayers for vocations. I believe that God does answer prayer, but He gives us the answer we need, not nec. the answer we want.

I worry about the level of open disdain many of the lay faithful have for our Bishops and priests here in the US. I still cannot even grasp the concept of lay members declaring themselves to be superior Catholics to people who have pursued Holy Orders and even been recognized for their efforts by Rome.

I worry about our proper care and transfer of the faith. When I went to Catholic school, we were, as students, overwhelmingly Catholic, and we were overwhelmingly taught by nuns and priests. By the time my youngest daughter went to Catholic school, almost half her classmates were not Catholic, and did have a nun or priest as a teacher until high school.

I worry about the continued plummet in our charitable giving. The dropoff after the scandals was just another blow, giving had already been dropping for years.

’

Peace

I thank you for the detailed response, I will take part I, I can understand the proper care of the faith. The Catholic School where my mother taught and I attended lost there nuns after 35 years because of lack of vocations. I studied for the Priesthood for two years, but decided to leave because the diocese I was in just did not fit me, also I made my own share of mistakes just as anyone does, I am still contemplating a religious vocation. The disdain for Priests and Bishops is also a problem for me as well. I often get upset at the cultural relativism of this day and age. People do really think that all religions lead to Heaven. I believe the Catholic Church is the one true church. I am often reminded of the phrase, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. But above all I trust in Jesus Christ. I know that he has blessed me just as I know he has blessed all of us. I look forward to heaven and can see to eternity, to the time God willing when we will look and gaze upon his glory. Above all my friend be trusting in Jesus and his Holy Mother. They will take care of all.

Peace to you as well.

 

[SoCalRC]

How do I put this gently? Stop letting your brain get in the way. You’re obviously a very intelligent person. Stop letting that get in the way. Jesus said ‘childlike’ for a reason.

But that is what I am being derided for. I simply accept that the Pope is, in fact, the Vicar of Christ. I strive to obey.

In 1902, the Church specifically told us that abortion, even for ectopic pregnancies, is immoral. I accept that (though I have great compassion for everyone involved in such decisions).

Serious Catholics, like Vern, have asserted that the Declaration and the Directives are somehow flawed, not a proper reflection of Catholic Faith. The true teaching must be to accept that such abortions, though counted as abortions by secular society, are licit.

In 2002, the Church specficially told us that certain moral principles are essential in voting. Compromising them is an assault on the “essence of moral law”. Again, I accept (and, again, I have compassion for the people who feel compelled to compromise).

You are telling me to think less, but it sounds like I am really being told to do lots of thinking and rationalizing - just of a specific sort.

Notice how Vern and Fix feel no need to even examine the quotes and reconcile them to their views. Papal origin or not, the quotes are false because, well, they are…

FWIW I strive to obey precisely because I lack that level moral certainty. Much of the time, my concience and understanding follows - like the death penalty, I started by simply obeying, but after watching what had unfolded in different parts of the country, I have come to believe the Pope was correct.

 

[SoCalRC]

Above all my friend be trusting in Jesus and his Holy Mother. They will take care of all.

Thank you for the reminder. We have a tendancy to think in terms like “God helps those who help themselves”, but that was Ben Franklin. Proverbs gets it right, the man who trusts in himself instead of God is a fool…

I will think of your kindness when I offer my prayer for vocations. Either way, I am sure you will find the right path.

Peace

 

[Aquinas74]

Thank you for the reminder. We have a tendancy to think in terms like “God helps those who help themselves”, but that was Ben Franklin. Proverbs gets it right, the man who trusts in himself instead of God is a fool…

I will think of your kindness when I offer my prayer for vocations. Either way, I am sure you will find the right path.

Peace

Thank you, I appreciate the prayers.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Many theologians teach that to be truly and fully Catholic, you must believe and practice all that the Church believes and teaches. I totally agree with this.
Deacon Ed B