Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[SMGS127]

I have looked at that Wikipedia article. Apparently as that same article says, the term is a modern creation to retrospectively describe things in the past that were non-sexual. I therefore have a hard time understanding:

1)how these modern people knew that these friendships were “romantic” and not merely normal friendships if they were clearly non-sexual in nature. Seems like projection to me.
2) Where making out is even hinted at in that article?: Hugging, holding hands, kissing, sharing a bed. That is something blood sisters in my culture do. It is NOT making out. The kissing…a peck in the cheek, forhead or even on the lips…is that not kissing? Please define making out so that we know what you really mean.

If you are truly interested, again, read books about romantic friendship in the Victorian Era between women.

Also I have never said that the Church specifically endorsed it. But I find it suspicious that something gravely immoral would be left alone by the Church, despite being highly prevalent in Western culture. At the very minimum it’s left up to the discernment of the individual.

 

[Mark121359]

Also I have never said that the Church specifically endorsed it. But I find it suspicious that something gravely immoral would be left alone by the Church, despite being highly prevalent in Western culture. At the very minimum it’s left up to the discernment of the individual.

I highly doubt this. Just because the Church doesn’t mention this specifically, doesn’t mean that it approves. This sounds to me like someone who’s probably doing these things, and is trying to justifying their behavior by convincing themselves and others that since the Church does’nt specifically mention this, it must be O.K. I’ll bet if you brought this up in Apologetics with Fr. Serpa or one of the others, and term it just as you did here saying; *“including physical intimacy like kissing and making out and cuddling/sleeping together” *…they’d set the record straight real fast!

Peace, Mark

 

[estesbob]

If you are truly interested, again, read books about romantic friendship in the Victorian Era between women.

Also I have never said that the Church specifically endorsed it. But I find it suspicious that something gravely immoral would be left alone by the Church, despite being highly prevalent in Western culture. At the very minimum it’s left up to the discernment of the individual.

So its ok for me to make out with my neighbors wife as long as we dont “go all the way”

 

[SMGS127]

So its ok for me to make out with my neighbors wife as long as we dont “go all the way”

No because she’s married . Stop using false analogies. But it is okay for you, if you are single, to make out with a woman if she is single and both of you are doing it purely for a reason other than erotic delight.

 

[One_point]

If you are truly interested, again, read books about romantic friendship in the Victorian Era between women.

Also I have never said that the Church specifically endorsed it. But I find it suspicious that something gravely immoral would be left alone by the Church, despite being highly prevalent in Western culture. At the very minimum it’s left up to the discernment of the individual.

You are running awa from showing what you claimed.

1. That women “made out” as a normal thing in Catholic Europe or most human history
2. that the church approved.

You cannot simply point to a wiki that says nothing about making out and vaguely refer to “books on romantic friendship” and that is supposed to prove that women made out. that article referenced activities that women do in many cultures including mothers and daughters. You are yet to prove this strange assertions you made specifically about making out. Do you mean prolonged kissing and petting, French kissing? Where on earth did women do this as a normal part of friendship in the past or present?

[No because she’s married . Stop using false analogies. But it is okay for you, if you are single, to make out with a woman if she is single and both of you are doing it purely for a reason other than erotic delight.

with respect it is you engaging in blatantly fasle analogies. Your relationship with a female you are attracted to in the same way a man is attracted to a woman he would like to make his girlfriend is closer in comparison with an attraction between estebob and his neighbor’s wife than between an unattached estebob and an unattached woman. You are drawing a false equivalence between a proper ordered relationship and an improper one rather than between two improper relationships like ssa and adultery. If that making out is truly benign and non-sexual then explain why it would be improper for estebob to do it with his neighbour’s wife? Is estebob allowed to shake his neighbour’s wife’s hand? Hug her? Peck on the cheek? What determines that some actions are proper for him and her and some not if we are genuinely referring to pure acts of friendship?
[/quote]

 

[estesbob]

No because she’s married . Stop using false analogies. But it is okay for you, if you are single, to make out with a woman if she is single and both of you are doing it purely for a reason other than erotic delight.

Why else would someone make out???

 

[SMGS127]

Why else would someone make out???

Sigh our culture has fallen this much that this has to be asked?

Why do people eroticize everything nowadays? Nothing is innocent anymore. Making out can merely be a buildup and expression of an emotional bond with no sexual desire or lust involved. If you can’t possibly imagine that, fine. But I’ve experienced it and know it exists .

 

[Rau]

… Are you telling me that the attractions gay people experience that tell them they are gay are just what I experience for my friends of my gender?

Clearly SMGS does not argue this. She argues that a broader scope of same-sex friendship can be chaste than is ordinarily understood.

 

[One_point]

Sigh our culture has fallen this much that this has to be asked?

Why do people eroticize everything nowadays? Nothing is innocent anymore. Making out can merely be a buildup and expression of an emotional bond with no sexual desire or lust involved. If you can’t possibly imagine that, fine. But I’ve experienced it and know it exists .

I will ask again. What is making out to you? Are you talking about things like French kissing or prolonged kissing and petting? And If there is no sexual desire as you claim then what s wrong with a man doing it with a female friend who is married to another man?

 

[estesbob]

Sigh our culture has fallen this much that this has to be asked?

Why do people eroticize everything nowadays? Nothing is innocent anymore. Making out can merely be a buildup and expression of an emotional bond with no sexual desire or lust involved. If you can’t possibly imagine that, fine. But I’ve experienced it and know it exists .

So if it can be as benign as you say it can be why would it be wrong for me to do it with my neighbors wife?

 

[One_point]

Clearly SMGS does not argue this. She argues that a broader scope of same-sex friendship can be chaste than is ordinarily understood.

smgs arguments are here for all you cant sugar coat it. she is arguing that that same attraction that starts a romantic involvement with man and woman is ok to be fostered betwwn two women and they can even make out while at it. I know I am not imposing things on hershe has made it clear all by herself.

 

[estesbob]

Clearly SMGS does not argue this. She argues that a broader scope of same-sex friendship can be chaste than is ordinarily understood.

So you agree with her that its OK for same sex people to make out as long as there is nothing “erotic” about it

 

[SMGS127]

So if it can be as benign as you say it can be why would it be wrong for me to do it with my neighbors wife?

Is holding hands benign? Yes. Should you be doing that with a married woman?

 

[One_point]

Is holding hands benign? Yes. Should you be doing that with a married woman?

Still waiting for what activities you mean making out.

Holding hands is benign but it is also a cultural gesture. It may be ok or improper depending on the cultural context. In many cultures, friends hold hands, but not unmarried men and women.

Which culture has distenterested friends French kissing and making out?

 

[Rau]

So you agree with her that its OK for same sex people to make out as long as there is nothing “erotic” about it

I do not know if she is right. I tried to more accurately express her argument than One Point had done.

 

[SMGS127]

I will ask again. What is making out to you? Are you talking about things like French kissing or prolonged kissing and petting? And If there is no sexual desire as you claim then what s wrong with a man doing it with a female friend who is married to another man?

French no petting

 

[One_point]

French no petting

Then that is wrong! I have seen even dating heteressexual couples discouraged from doing this at certain stages of their relationship. Wgich culture has ever allowed French kissing between women as part of normal friendship???

 

[One_point]

Is holding hands benign? Yes. Should you be doing that with a married woman?

In fact, come to think of it, this is NOT benign at all. This is a public gesture that has a certain meaning. In itself it is simple but no gesture is free of the meaning culture gives it. A boyfriend would be jealous of his girl walking holding hands with another male. why? because it announces a certain relationship. this shows much more that it is these non-benign gestures or activities that make it improper and possibly sinful to do with another man’s wife because it causes scandal announces a romantic involvement. So it is not at all benign but full of hidden meaning even though this mening comes from the cultue and not the action itself. Likewise making out would not be “innocent” but a form of adultery.

 

[SMGS127]

Then that is wrong! I have seen even dating heteressexual couples discouraged from doing this at certain stages of their relationship. Wgich culture has ever allowed French kissing between women as part of normal friendship???

At the sake of repeating myself for the gazillionth time…Victorian England.

 

[Rau]

In fact, come to think of it, this is NOT benign at all. This is a public gesture that has a certain meaning. In itself it is simple but no gesture is free of the meaning culture gives it. A boyfriend would be jealous of his girl walking holding hands with another male. why? because it announces a certain relationship. this shows much more that it is these non-benign gestures or activities that make it improper and possibly sinful to do with another man’s wife because it causes scandal announces a romantic involvement. So it is not at all benign but full of hidden meaning even though this mening comes from the cultue and not the action itself. Likewise making out would not be “innocent” but a form of adultery.

Not always so. Any number of girlfriends hold hands walking down the street. Individually, they are heterosexual. Some observers might mistake this for something else.