Serious Problem on my journey to Catholicism

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BigTurkey:
A specific example: how did the Assumption of Mary become regarded as Tradition? Are there quotes from teh ECFs that talk about this?

Thanks again

-Micah
Yep, there are TONS. It would take a lifetime to read even a large portion of the ECF. One of my favorite sites is ScriptureCatholic. Here are just a “few” ECFs on Mary’s Assumption.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-IV

Also, make sure to click “home” and really get a chance to see Scripture in its original, Catholic, perspective. You will certainly find that the Protestant interpretation of scripture varies so much from person to person, year to year, and sadly now century to century. Even Luther believed in his time that Mary was an ever Virgin. Most current Protestants don’t. Teachings of The Catholic Church have remained the same for 2000 years. There has to be One Truth, otherwise all that God says means nothing.

This also addresses your concerns on “revelation” and “infallibility.” For your purposes it is better to use the term “clarification” rather than “revelation.” Your current understanding of the term revelation is leading to confusion. When you have a better understanding of infallibility this will make more sense.

For now, please understand that infallible statements are a clarification of past and current teachings. It does not involve new information from God, just a better understanding of what was already revealed. I can give you some examples if you would like. Please post here or feel free to PM me.
 
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BigTurkey:
What writings are considered infallible?

Also, a related question I have is this: how do the teachings of the ECFs become Sacred Tradidion? (How do they, not how did they…I’m not questioning why there is Sacred Tradition, I’m asking how something comes to be considered sacred Tradition.)

A specific example: how did the Assumption of Mary become regarded as Tradition? Are there quotes from teh ECFs that talk about this?

Thanks again

-Micah
Hi Micah,

Just a note on the Assumption of Mary. The official definition by the pope basically just states that we believe Mary is in Heaven with a glorified body. It does not say that she was raised into Heaven before her death, but just that there is no proof of her death. The Eastern view is that she fell asleep, and was raised into Heaven to be with her Son. Christ honored His mother, so He would raise her up to be with Him. Mary was the first Christian. If it wasn’t for her “Yes” to the Archangel, Christianity might be a lot different today. Mary, thru her own free will by saying yes to the Archangel, and by carrying Christ into her womb, is partly responsible for our salvation (because Christ came thru Mary). Therefore, we believe He raised her up to be with Him since she helped Him complete his Redemptive work. Mary was the first Christian and the Mother of God (Christ is God), this is why we honor her as we do.
 
BT,
Many of your questions can be answered by reqdinfg 2 books:
Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham and

Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens. You really only need Volume one. There are three.

After you read those, come on back for more questions.

One more thing: a pope only comes out with an infallible statement when the topic becomes controversial or confusing.
 
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Strider:
BT,
Many of your questions can be answered by reqdinfg 2 books:
Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham and

Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens. You really only need Volume one. There are three.

After you read those, come on back for more questions.

One more thing: a pope only comes out with an infallible statement when the topic becomes controversial or confusing.
Or when the faithful petition the pope to declare ex-cathedra a doctrine already held by the majority of the Church, and which has support from Sacred Scripture and/or Sacred Tradition.
 
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ncgolf:
Hello Big Turkey … be careful the next few weeks. 😃

Anyway … I am Catholic and am wondering why someone who believes the Bible is the Word of God questions how the Bible originated. If the men who took writings throughout salvation history were not inspired by God to include what needed to be included and exclude what needed to be excluded then the Bible would not be trustworthy. Is yours a question on the trustworthiness of the Bible? The foundation on which the Bible stands is Christ himself since Christ himself is the Church. The two cannot be separated. Catholics submit to the authority of the Church because the Church is Christ’s mystical body. The stumbling block I see in your questions is authority.

Does it stand to reason if two Bibles exist then one must be in error? One must posses either false teachings or less truth than the other. If you know and trust the authority on which the Bible was created then that source must be trusted for all truth. Once you find that truth there is no longer any need to search for it.

This is like saying we have to accept the decision of the Supreme Court but we don’ t have to recoginze the authority of the Supreme Court. The authority is implicit in the rendering of a decision.

This is why I see a deeper question on authority.
Yeah, I am thinking the same thing also. Do any of you think that Mark Shea’s book An Evangelical Find Authority (or whatever the name is) would be useful to me, specifically the problems I spelled out above? I have been considering buying the book, but I didn’t know if I should or not.

I guess one of my biggest problems is that I see the Scriptural arguments for the authority of the Church, but, as with anything, there still has to be an element of faith when accepting anything as authoritative and infallible. There is a huge element of faith in me accepting Christ, there is an element of faith in accepting the Scriptures, and there is an element of faith in accepting the Church. I guess my difficulty is putting my faith in the Church even when faced with my Protestant upbringing and all the skepticism and fear of Catholicism (no offense).

Micah
 
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LittleDeb:
This also addresses your concerns on “revelation” and “infallibility.” For your purposes it is better to use the term “clarification” rather than “revelation.” Your current understanding of the term revelation is leading to confusion. When you have a better understanding of infallibility this will make more sense.

For now, please understand that infallible statements are a clarification of past and current teachings. It does not involve new information from God, just a better understanding of what was already revealed. I can give you some examples if you would like. Please post here or feel free to PM me.
Great point! Also, thanks for the link. It would be great if you could give me an example. This might be foolish to ask, but is there a list of all the writings and decrees of the Church that are considered infallible according to the guidelines of Vatican I?

Micah
 
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BigTurkey:
Great point! Also, thanks for the link. It would be great if you could give me an example. This might be foolish to ask, but is there a list of all the writings and decrees of the Church that are considered infallible according to the guidelines of Vatican I?

Micah
No.

It’s actually an open question among different Catholic Theologians as to how many Infallible “decrees” there are.

Some say only 2, some say more.

Blessings,
Richard
 
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Richard_Hurtz:
No.

It’s actually an open question among different Catholic Theologians as to how many Infallible “decrees” there are.

Some say only 2, some say more.

Blessings,
Richard
This is where it does get confusing, but we can say for certainty that there have been 2 instances where the pope has defined two things ex-cathedra. One is the definition of papal infallibility which happened at the first Vatican Council. The second is the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.
 
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BigTurkey:
There is a huge element of faith in me accepting Christ, there is an element of faith in accepting the Scriptures, and there is an element of faith in accepting the Church. I guess my difficulty is putting my faith in the Church even when faced with my Protestant upbringing and all the skepticism and fear of Catholicism (no offense).
Micah
Only one thing left to do then and that is pray. Remember “All who seek find”. Jesus promised that so don’t worry about it anymore. Just pray.

I am not familiar with the book you mentioned so I cannot help there.
 
I agree that it is accurate to say that the Church recognized the books of Scripture rather than decided upon them. Yes, the Scriptures were Scripture the moment they were written. But the conclusion is not the one you have been told to draw. It is not a simple matter of “well, the Church recognized them and so do I”. The fact is, nobody today recognizes, out of the blue, the inspired nature of the Scriptures. Rather, we have been taught that they are inspired. What they recognize is that “everybody says these writings are inspired”. Christians today start their journey with a bible who’s inspiration is an axiom. This is not like in the beginning when Christians were taught mostly by word of mouth, so that one might have a true Christian foundation on which to judge the various writings that came into existence.

Even so, there was not unanimity among the early Christians. Individual Christians had (and have) no guarantee of recognizing Scripture when they read it. Only the Church had such a guarantee.

So to say that Christians today recognize the inspiration of Scripture just as the Church did is simply false and playing with words. The early Church truly did discern which writings were Scripture, while Christians today simply accept the pronouncements of whatever authority they abide by, if they think of it at all. Many others simply accept that the bible is inspired because it’s for sale at the bookstore (the authority of “conventional wisdom”). As always, it comes down to which authority you choose to put your complete faith in. The Church? Luther and friends (who stripped books out based on fallible ideas)?

BTW, how does the Protestant “they recognized, I recognize” deal with the missing 6 books? Either the Church recognized wrongly or Protestants recognize wrongly. They can’t both be right, so who’s wrong?
 
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Della:
No, you are confusing the unbelieving Jews with heretics here. No one can be a heretic unless he first stated his belief in a particular religion. Jews who did not become Christian, who never embraced the Christian faith to begin with, cannot be termed heretics. You are arguing against no one and nothing here, I’m afraid.
So by your reasoning, Roman Catholics, since they abandoned the Christian faith of the earliest disciples as expressed ONLY in the scriptures are heretics. Surely those who follow Christ as Lord and Savior and have been born again trusting in God alone in relationship and not religion cannot be considered heretics (unless of course you happen to be Jesuit).
 
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BigTurkey:
What mistake is that? And what do you mean by me straying? Straying from Protestantism? Straying from my looking to Catholicism? I’m not offended or anything at you saying that I’m straying, I just want to know what you mean.

Thanks

MIcah
Straying from faith in the finished work of Christ alone by grace alone for your salvation.
 
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BigTurkey:
It’s probably not a good idea to insult the intelligence of someone who is sincerely searching for the Truth and looking at the Catholic Church.
No insult was given. In Catholicism, questions have answers. I have given you an answer. I am merely reminding you of that reality.
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BigTurkey:
It’s not that I don’t get the reasoning, its that your post doesn’t answer my question.
OK.

A book cannot be an authority. A book is paper, ink, and leather.

Neither can an idea be an authority. This entry on the Word explains the Greek notion of idea.

Only a person can be an authority. Yes, there were books in existence before the Canon was recognized. The ability to interpret them and to assess them as truth was given to the Church. The Church is many things but principally it is a body of persons and indeed is described as the Bride of Christ.

It always boils down to who interprets. Saying that a book says something is actually saying some things along the following lines:

-The point of view of the author
-The context in which the author wrote
-Your interpretation
-The context in which you interpret
-The joining of the two contextual horizons
-And probably some other things which do not come to mind at present.

Who has the final word? Or more specifically: in whom does the Word reside?
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BigTurkey:
Those are some good quotes. I haven’t done much reading on the New Advent site.
Again you have questions. I have given you my answers, but I also recognize that other sources give much better answers than my own. New Advent is an excellent source. The Catholic Answers Library is an excellent source. vatican.va is an excellent source. Many of the CA posters have extensive bookmarks which you can access.
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BigTurkey:
For the most part, my online reading has been done on this post or on Dave Armstrong’s website.
I don’t know Dave Armstrong.
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BigTurkey:
Thanks for these quotes.
My pleasure.
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BigTurkey:
However, my problem is that Protestant Scholars (F. F. Bruce, Ferguson, Greg Boyd, James White, and others that I am reading) all claim that the canon was recognized by the church early on.
Yes, I gather that they were a ‘given’ early on.

continued…
 
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BigTurkey:
The Catholic Church didn’t define the canon, they only recognized the canon, so they say.
Some things come up for me:
  1. In the very act of recognizing exactly which books among thousands were actually part of the canon, the Church defined what the canon is. I cannot define something unless I recognize it first. To recognize something I must first experience it. To experience it, I must be in its presence, observe its ways. This was true of the European concept of ‘buffalo’ and it was true of the canon and it is true of God. So, in experiencing texts whose truth was assumed to be a ‘given’ and in observing their ways, the question was eventually asked: “What do canonical texts do?” Or more specifically: “What do canonical texts do that non-canonical texts do not do?”
  2. The recognizing or defining of the canon was a solution to a problem; an answer to a question, if you will. The reason it was done when it was done is that history conspired at that particular time to illuminate the Fathers that something needed to be said about which was Truth and which was heresy. Before then, the Fathers did not perceive the plethora of truth-claims to be particularly problematic. Even the heresies tended to be received as points of view, so to speak, worthy of debate. The nature of the problem ultimately revealed itself as the danger to community which heresy represented. Why? Because, as the Church grew larger and more widespread ‘conversations’ became less easy to track, less accountable, and there had to be a singular point of reference. The canon was that point of reference.
  3. Having said that the canon was that point of reference it follows that the authority to determine that point of reference, the authority to steward that point of reference, the authority to deploy that point of reference through interpretation had to reside in one body and in reality had resided in one body – the Church – through apostolic succession. There is no point in saying that the canon existed as a point of reference if interpretation was surrendered to everyone and his brother. Pluralist interpretation defeats the point of having a singular point of reference. Doesn’t it? Pluralist interpretation also defeats community. Doesn’t it?
  4. The problem of literacy is not to be ignored. Literacy is the privilege of very few in the Church. For 15 centuries 90% of the Church – at least – were illiterate. One could argue that they were vicariously literate; that is, they depended on the literacy of the clergy. But how could they know that what the clergy was saying was what was written in the canon and – most importantly that what was written in the canon was true? They had no way of verifying textual fidelity or dogmatic fidelity. Did they? They had to trust that what they were being told and what resonated in their spirits – anagnoresis – was true. This trust was given to them by God. Salvation, therefore, does not hinge on literacy. Does it? Nor does Salvation hinge, therefore, on faith alone. Does it?
  5. Consider the concept ‘alone.’ Faith alone, scripture alone, Luther alone. If God wanted us to be alone he would never have given us each other and each other would never have become by God’s grace the Church. Other people would instead have become, in the words of Jean Paul Sartre, hell.
continued…
 
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BigTurkey:
I think you might misunderstand the normal, intelligent, non-Fundamentalist understanding of sola Scriptura (which is easy b/c there are as many definitions of sola Scriptura as there are Protestant churches).
I might.
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BigTurkey:
It’s not that they say that theonly thing anyone could ever read or consult to find truth is Scripture, but that the final authority is scripture.
An epistemological conundrum. If the final authority is Scripture – and I have shown that it cannot by definition be thus – how can the illiterate know this final authority?
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BigTurkey:
Your argument above isn’t conclusive.
Perhaps.
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BigTurkey:
It does not definitely prove Catholicism
Perhaps, but it disproves Sola Scriptura.
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BigTurkey:
and it still leaves open my questions that I re-posted.
I suggest that it is critical that you be sure that you are hunting for a question rather than resisting an answer.

I suggest that it is critical that you be sure that you are hunting for the transformative power of the Word rather than the informative power of language.

I suggest that it is critical that you be sure that the Word is the Second Person of God and that this Truth is Personal and never changes even though the words of the story of the Truth change through thousands of translations and billions of witnesses and all of history.
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BigTurkey:
Some days I’m about ready to join the CC any day now, and others I think I will never join the CC and that I will remain Protestant.
That is your choice. That is why I recommended Fides et Ratio.
 
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Tibbar:
Straying from faith in the finished work of Christ alone by grace alone for your salvation.
Hmmm…

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (Col 1:24).

Paul writes that his sufferings for the Colossians actually fills up whats lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am presentbut all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

Catholics don’t doubt that their salvation is only by the grace of God, however we have to have faith and works:
“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).
 
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BigTurkey:
Yeah, I am thinking the same thing also. Do any of you think that Mark Shea’s book An Evangelical Find Authority (or whatever the name is) would be useful to me, specifically the problems I spelled out above? I have been considering buying the book, but I didn’t know if I should or not.

Micah
The book you are referring to is By What Authority? I highly recommend it. It’s a short, easy read and should answer a lot of your questions.
 
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BigTurkey:
There is a huge element of faith in me accepting Christ, there is an element of faith in accepting the Scriptures, and there is an element of faith in accepting the Church. I guess my difficulty is putting my faith in the Church even when faced with my Protestant upbringing and all the skepticism and fear of Catholicism (no offense).

Micah
The skepticism and fear of Catholicism is one thing. That is something that is very easily remedied by knowledge; more specifically through an experience of our presence, observing our ways.

But I suggest that there is a barrier to that knowledge coming home to rooste; a barrier to that experience of our presence, a barrier to observing our ways.

While that barrier is clearly a matter of faith, it is most specifically and urgently a matter of trust.
Now, faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not. (Hebrews 11:1 DRC)
But what of trust? I will leave that as an open question for you to answer.

Luther was a man who found sanctuary, happiness, and peace in the Church and yet who carried the roots of a brutal childhood in his soul. Unrecognized, undefined, these roots took on a ghost-power over his life lying in wait for the Wittenberg plague to flower into full blown post-traumatic stress disorder.

The ‘adaptive child’ part of his personality caused him to assume the blame for the brutality inflicted on him in his childhood. By assuming the blame he gained a flawed yet serviceable ‘understanding’ and therefore 'control of that situation. Confronted with the suffering, death, and sorrow of Wittenberg, he resorted to an an old tape.

The result was a scrupulosity which drove him to become his own persecutor. He isolated himself from the comfort of his clerical community and inflicted extreme punishments and deprivations on himself which culminated in exhaustion and dissociative collapse. In that much trouble, with that much responsibility to which he was incapable of rising, he became his own counsel and Luther-Alone was born.

It was from Luther-Alone that all the other alones sprang as justifications for the one singular fundamental interpersonal error and that was the unwillingness of Luther to trust in the Church in which Christ has vested authority. Why? Because Luther was deceived into confusing the misuse of power in the form of a violent father with the legitimate uses of authority in the form of a loving Church. For Luther all forms of authority were suspect because they were wielded by persons. Do you not see the logic in vesting authority in an object made of paper, ink, and leather? Irrationality can be very logical.

Well, what is the import of this? If this was merely a question of recognizing and defining PTSD in Luther and acknowledging that we can treat PTSD in the 21st Century, then there would be no problem. But the problem of distrust is far more insidious than that. How many of us bring the baggage of brothers, fathers, mothers, sisters, cousins, even priests and nuns who have run amok in our lives and caused us harm?

The problem is seeing the Church through our eyes.

The solution is seeing the Church through God’s eyes.

How undeserving we are of God’s love. Yet how embracing, comforting, and satisfying is His love for each of us. It is not good for us to be alone. God does not intend for us to be alone. But he has given us free will. Therefore whether we see other people as hell as Sartre did or whether we choose to see them as the good wife as God does is entirely within our power to choose.

I will close by noting that trust is a decision only remotely related to the trustworthiness of other people. Of course we must avoid the occasion of sin. What I am drawing your attention to is that our very ability to trust is broken and it makes no difference effectively whether other people are trustworthy or not. As long as our trust is broken, we will wake up with our fingers pointing, poised to condemn with morbid perfectionism our neighbours and ultimately ourselves.
 
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Tibbar:
So by your reasoning, Roman Catholics, since they abandoned the Christian faith of the earliest disciples as expressed ONLY in the scriptures are heretics.
It is not possible for someone who is illiterate to abandon a truth which must be read in order to be apprehended. By your reasoning 90% of the Church were not capable of being saved. And since literacy was effectively a function of wealth and privilege the camel somehow squeezed itself through the eye of the needle. That so totally does not make sense to me.
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Tibbar:
Surely those who follow Christ as Lord and Savior and have been born again trusting in God alone in relationship and not religion cannot be considered heretics (unless of course you happen to be Jesuit).
Ah, there is that word ‘trust’ again.
 
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BigTurkey:
Great point! Also, thanks for the link. It would be great if you could give me an example. This might be foolish to ask, but is there a list of all the writings and decrees of the Church that are considered infallible according to the guidelines of Vatican I?

Micah
I’m glad you like that link. When you have time…yeah right, college student…“time, what’s that??” When you have a chance just read all you can there at Scripture Catholic. There is a good link on why Scripture itself reads that it is not the final authority.

So with that said, you are looking for a list of “all the writings and decrees.” Well the answer is yes and no, but not why you might think. Yes, the documents exist, no, there is no ‘definitive list.’ Why no list? Sorry to say and please don’t take offense, but the Catholic Church is 2000 years old, so when you ask that question, your Protestant roots are showing.

First you are again looking for ‘paper authority.’ Second, the list, if it were able to exist, would be thousands of pages long. That is just the LIST of the documents. So before I continue I will try to better define some of the terms you are struggling with. I can already see this is going to be long so please bear with me so I can get to the examples I promised you.

I will first give you a better term to work in this stage of your journey. ‘Teaching Authority’ also known as the Magisterium. You probably have heard the term but might be stuck on the term ‘infallibility’ instead. As Catholics we hold to the Magisterium being just as important as Scripture. If you hand a child a text-book and yet have no one to teach him what it contains, you have left him to decifer it by himself. He is bound to make mistakes. If he has a teacher with authority then he will learn without having to teach himself. If that teacher were garanteed (by the Holy Spirit) to be free from error he would have a deep, correct, learning experience.

By asking for documents you are trusting in your own learning. While this is NOT a bad thing, it can still lead us into error. Yes, some of the documents in the Vatican archives are thousands of years old. Many have not been translated into our language. Some are so fragile they cannot be touched anymore. BUT, the good news is that we know what they contain through the consistent teaching of The Church!

So now on to the examples you asked for:
Infallible does not really apply to ‘writings’ by your definition. We are better served by using the term ‘infallible teachings.’ BTW, I am considered by many friends to be the “semantics police.” I choose my words carefully and try to make sure the person I am speaking with is using the same definitions of the words.

continued on next post… WOW my first “con’t.” post! Thanks Turkey! 😃
 
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