Serious question for Mormons

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This is getting more and more interesting. I posted that letter over at the MAD board (doing a hit-and-run) and got this link in response: lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/the-2nd-watson-letter/

Apparently, since the second letter, emphasizing the message of the BoM, no longer exists, we can assume that it never existed, because Solomon Spalding’s “Manuscript Found” never existed.

Or, they can go the other way, and re-interpret the BoM, and its message, based on an informed understanding of what Spalding would have written, acknowledging that it contains some truth, even though it is not historically true.

Except they have always taught it was historical truth. And Solomon Spalding’s MF never existed. And that letter never existed. Ah the shifting sands of Mormonism.
 
LongJourney said:
This is getting more and more interesting. I posted that letter over at the MAD board (doing a hit-and-run) and got this link in response: lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/the-2nd-watson-letter/

Apparently, since the second letter, emphasizing the message of the BoM, no longer exists, we can assume that it never existed, because Solomon Spalding’s “Manuscript Found” never existed.

Or, they can go the other way, and re-interpret the BoM, and its message, based on an informed understanding of what Spalding would have written, acknowledging that it contains some truth, even though it is not historically true.

Except they have always taught it was historical truth. And Solomon Spalding’s MF never existed. And that letter never existed. Ah the shifting sands of Mormonism.
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LOL, I was over there, and saw that thread.

I find some of their responses interesting.

Of course, the “original” can’t be found. Did the dog eat it?

“I myself don’t doubt that there was such a letter. I held it in my own two little hands, and read it with my own two little eyes.”

Were these real eyes, or spiritual eyes?

I have a couple of questions about this “second letter”.
  1. If Mr. Watson is a “Secretary” to the First Presidency, don’t you think, maybe, just maybe, he would have kept a copy of the letter?
(I don’t know of any organization the size of lds that doesn’t keep copies of correspondence from that level of the hierarchy.)
  1. How come there is no statement from Mr. Watson saying, that there was a second letter, but, there is no copy of it?
 
Ah the shifting sands of the multiple schisms within the Utah LDS church. When are they going to pronounce what they believe, for the moment, and ex all those who disagree?

You also notice that that question originated from Oklahoma, where the LDS church presumably has more Native believers who know their history? It differs with cultural heritage of its believers. Correlation be d-----. (Correlation is the effort within the LDS church to make it more homogeneous in culture and beliefs)
 
yeah, I posted thi over there:

so, as a Mormon, you are willing to:
  1. Reject a Letter from The First Presidency that you can see; and
  2. Accept a letter that you can’t see; and
  3. Reject the several Prophets and GAs who stated definitively that the Cumorah in NY was the same as the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon?
Seems like an odd way to run a train…
 
KnitMum said:
I have been reading some of the other threads regarding Mormonism, and want to preface this question by saying that this is a sincere request for information, and not inflammatory. I am currently reading about the LDS church (as a Catholic convert, one of my hobbies is learning all I can about other religions).

Here is my question.
There are several issues I have with Mormonism, but the biggest stumbling block I see for Mormons is the issue of the epic battle between the Nephites and Lamanites in the BoM. If such a battle occurred and so many people were slaughtered, why is there no archaelogical record of any of it? I could understand if the story was meant as a parable, as many of Jesus’ teachings were conveyed in the NT, but as I understand it, this is meant as a historical record.

Could a member of the LDS church help me out, please? Thanks. 🙂
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KnitMum,
As you have probably become aware, some threads with “Mormon” questions become a “lightning rod”. It looks like yours is the “lucky one.”

(If you come back to the thread), peace to you in your studies.
 
ParkerD said:
KnitMum,
As you have probably become aware, some threads with “Mormon” questions become a “lightning rod”. It looks like yours is the “lucky one.”

(If you come back to the thread), peace to you in your studies.
Click to expand...
Most false religions are lightening rods. Why should the LDS Church be any different?
 
SirThomasMore said:
yeah, I posted this over there:

so, as a Mormon, you are willing to:
  1. Reject a Letter from The First Presidency that you can see; and
  2. Accept a letter that you can’t see; and
  3. Reject the several Prophets and GAs who stated definitively that the Cumorah in NY was the same as the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon?
Seems like an odd way to run a train…
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Mighty peculiar. Your post isn’t there now. :rotfl: I can see your post here. Will they deny that that post ever existed?

Would that I were a prophet, to see what they will do with all the dissonant and diverse teachings and beliefs. :juggle:
 
LongJourney said:
Mighty peculiar. Your post isn’t there now. :rotfl: I can see your post here. Will they deny that that post ever existed?

Would that I were a prophet, to see what they will do with all the dissonant and diverse teachings and beliefs. :juggle:
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what a horrible board. There was nothing with that post.

Whyme and other Mormons always praised that board with how tolerant they were, etc. I get called a liar over here and nothing happens, I catch Pahoran in a very obvious lie and mention that he lied, and I get banned from the thread.

I was told that I could not deal with the Mormons over, I was afraid of them…but everytime I post, I get banned or deleted. I am not afraid of them, they are afraid of ME

Why are Mormons so afraid of truth?

I reposted it over there
 
Like I said a few days ago, I would no more go over there to post than I would take a walk in the hill-country of Afghanistan with my head uncovered. However, a hit-and-run with a genuine question is a different matter.

Since they monitor this board (obviously), there is no need to tangle with them directly, especially their mods.

I find the less I communicate directly with the more hard-core of that board’s inhabitants, the more reasonable I become with my counter-Mopologetics. I am overcoming my masochistic personality traits. :o
 
LongJourney said:
This is getting more and more interesting. I posted that letter over at the MAD board (doing a hit-and-run) and got this link in response: lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/the-2nd-watson-letter/

Apparently, since the second letter, emphasizing the message of the BoM, no longer exists, we can assume that it never existed, because Solomon Spalding’s “Manuscript Found” never existed.

Or, they can go the other way, and re-interpret the BoM, and its message, based on an informed understanding of what Spalding would have written, acknowledging that it contains some truth, even though it is not historically true.

Except they have always taught it was historical truth. And Solomon Spalding’s MF never existed. And that letter never existed. Ah the shifting sands of Mormonism.
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s interesting. We’re expected to believe in a letter that we can’t see, but other people say they saw it, while the Spalding manuscript story is false, even though we can’t see that one either, and other people said they saw it.

:hypno:
 
LongJourney said:
This is getting more and more interesting. I posted that letter over at the MAD board (doing a hit-and-run) and got this link in response: lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/the-2nd-watson-letter/

Except they have always taught it was historical truth. And Solomon Spalding’s MF never existed. And that letter never existed. Ah the shifting sands of Mormonism.
Click to expand...
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks Moore Ward Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake 1000 Windemere Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:

I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter **to President Gordon B. Hinckley **from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

**The Church **has long maintained, **as attested to by references in the writings of **General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

**The Brethren **appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

Sincerely yours, (signed) F. Michael Watson Secretary to the First Presidency

from wiki:
**The First Presidency **(also called the Quorum of the Presidency of the Church or simply the Presidency) **is the presiding or governing body **of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). It is composed of the President of the Church and his counselors. The First Presidency currently consists of President Thomas S. Monson and his two counselors, Henry B. Eyring and Dieter F. Uchtdorf.

So the letter is from the “presiding or governing body of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and is composed of the President of the Church and his two counselors…they are considered to be prophets by the Mormons.

So, once again, a “mistake” by LDS prophets.
 
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 - "If you say to yourselves, ‘How can we recognize an oracle which the Lord has spoken?’, know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if his oracle is not fulfilled or verfiied, it is an oracle which the Lord did not speak. the prophet has spoken it resumptuously, and you shall have no fear of him.
 
ParkerD said:
KnitMum,
As you have probably become aware, some threads with “Mormon” questions become a “lightning rod”. It looks like yours is the “lucky one.”

(If you come back to the thread), peace to you in your studies.
Click to expand...
Parker - KnitMum said the battle between the Nephites and Lamanites was a stumbling block. This is why - even the LDS church can’t figure it out.

The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth and is the keystone of the LDS religion, according to Joseph Smith, so Mormons have to expect discussion on these topics.

This is a lightning rod of a letter written by the First Presidency regarding the Hill Cumorah.
Either the contents of the letter are true = the Hill Cumorah is in New York -or-
the contents of the letter are false = mistake by the First Presidency
 
lax16 said:
Parker - KnitMum said the battle between the Nephites and Lamanites was a stumbling block. This is why - even the LDS church can’t figure it out.

The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth and is the keystone of the LDS religion, according to Joseph Smith, so Mormons have to expect discussion on these topics.

This is a lightning rod of a letter written by the First Presidency regarding the Hill Cumorah.
Either the contents of the letter are true = the Hill Cumorah is in New York -or-
the contents of the letter are false = mistake by the First Presidency
Click to expand...
not just the First Presidency…the letter states it has long been mainained by General Authorities (Prophets, Apostles)
 
SirThomasMore said:
not just the First Presidency…the letter states it has long been mainained by General Authorities (Prophets, Apostles)
Click to expand...
Your comment on MADB about your paralegal was funny. EXACTLY what I was thinking. They just try to deflect from the issue.
 
CatholicGuyNY said:
Your comment on MADB about your paralegal was funny. EXACTLY what I was thinking. They just try to deflect from the issue.
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Ok, I can’t believe they’re popping up with these “faxes” and “letters” that supposedly show the first letter wrong.
  1. The fax. Most, if not all faxes that are received have some sort of identifier information across the top, even if it is to say that the number is confidential. There is almost always the date and time of the fax on the top. I’m not seeing anything remotely like that.
  2. That letter from “Brent”. Come on now, let’s get serious. No date, no salutation, no nothing. How many Brent’s are there in the mormon community?
  3. If both of these are legitimate responses to the letter (which I doubt), how come the sources at wiki and fair or whatever aren’t trotting them out?
Give me a break people!!!
 
lax16 said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks Moore Ward Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake 1000 Windemere Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:

I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter **to President Gordon B. Hinckley **from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

**The Church **has long maintained, **as attested to by references in the writings of **General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

**The Brethren **appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

Sincerely yours, (signed) F. Michael Watson Secretary to the First Presidency

from wiki:
**The First Presidency **(also called the Quorum of the Presidency of the Church or simply the Presidency) **is the presiding or governing body **of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). It is composed of the President of the Church and his counselors. The First Presidency currently consists of President Thomas S. Monson and his two counselors, Henry B. Eyring and Dieter F. Uchtdorf.

So the letter is from the “presiding or governing body of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and is composed of the President of the Church and his two counselors…they are considered to be prophets by the Mormons.

So, once again, a “mistake” by LDS prophets.
Click to expand...
Lax16,
I already agreed with that letter on the Cumorah thread. I have no problem with that letter and what it says.

Have a good day. I hope you are enjoying the great weather.
 
Whyme and Pahorah said I could not hang on the LDS Board…how am I doing?
 
According to one of the links presented for further reference, it appears that Mormons sidestep the question of DNA by having the introduction to the BOM changed so that it now says,

“[The Lamanites] are the principalancestors of the American Indians."

On this slide it also state, "Critics contend that DNA matching present-day Jews is not found in Native Americans and therefore Book of Mormon is a product of the 19thCentury rather than of ancient Israelite origin. Previous Book of Mormon editions did not have this introduction: 1830, 1837, 1840, 1841 (B), 1849 (B), 1852 (B), 1879, 1920, 1981 Introduction changed in future editions to “…the Lamanites,and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians”

Again, it seems that if the arguement is difficult to defend, the Mormon authorities changed one word so that now the Asian gene can be explained. How can the BOB be inspired by God if this can have so many, many changes?
 
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