Serious Question For Roman Catholics re: Canon

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If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, then why did Rome question the inspiration of James and Hebrews and then later accept it? Conversely Rome accepted some books as Scripture and then later rejected them. If the Catholic church really is illuminated by the Holy Spirit so that we can trust it as God’s one true Church, then why was it so wrong about something seemingly simple? Shouldn’t the Holy See have known all along?
 
The obvious answer being that Rome was not the totallity of the Church until it decided to head off on its own. 🙂
 
If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, then why did Rome question the inspiration of James and Hebrews and then later accept it? Conversely Rome accepted some books as Scripture and then later rejected them. If the Catholic church really is illuminated by the Holy Spirit so that we can trust it as God’s one true Church, then why was it so wrong about something seemingly simple? Shouldn’t the Holy See have known all along?
Care to provide a reliable source from where you have obtained this information?
 
Actually Luther was the one who questioned the canonicity of Hebrews and James
which he called “an Epistle of straw”.
 
That’s a pretty interesting question and one that is very different to answer. Let’s start by saying that the books in question were debated for some time, but often prior to Martin Luther and the first Protestant Reformation. Therefore, in essence, Protestants debated the divine inspiration of these books, as well. Lest we forget that Luther not only removed several Old Testament books, he also tried to remove James and Revelations. There will always be debate as to what belongs, what doesn’t, etc. The thing we all need to realize is that the human race is not without error. We must use what God gave us and make educated decisions based on scripture, teachings, history, and anything else at our disposal.
 
That’s a pretty interesting question and one that is very different to answer. Let’s start by saying that the books in question were debated for some time, but often prior to Martin Luther and the first Protestant Reformation. Therefore, in essence, Protestants debated the divine inspiration of these books, as well. Lest we forget that Luther not only removed several Old Testament books, he also tried to remove James and Revelations. There will always be debate as to what belongs, what doesn’t, etc. The thing we all need to realize is that the human race is not without error. We must use what God gave us and make educated decisions based on scripture, teachings, history, and anything else at our disposal.
Not only James and Revelation, but Hebrews and Jude as well.
 
That’s a pretty interesting question and one that is very different to answer. Let’s start by saying that the books in question were debated for some time, but often prior to Martin Luther and the first Protestant Reformation. Therefore, in essence, Protestants debated the divine inspiration of these books, as well. Lest we forget that Luther not only removed several Old Testament books, he also tried to remove James and Revelations. There will always be debate as to what belongs, what doesn’t, etc. The thing we all need to realize is that the human race is not without error. We must use what God gave us and make educated decisions based on scripture, teachings, history, and anything else at our disposal.
What little sense I can make of what you have written is not what the Church teaches, nor are you clearly saying what happened.

Before the Canon of Sacred Scripture was determined, there was debate within the Church (which at that time consisted of what are now the Catholic and Orthodox Churches). Afterwards, any debate which occurred was along the lines of a child asking if 2 plus 2 could ever equal anything other than 4.

The Protestants just wanted to take out books which supported Church teachings over their own.
 
What little sense I can make of what you have written is not what the Church teaches, nor are you clearly saying what happened.

Before the Canon of Sacred Scripture was determined, there was debate within the Church (which at that time consisted of what are now the Catholic and Orthodox Churches). Afterwards, any debate which occurred was along the lines of a child asking if 2 plus 2 could ever equal anything other than 4.

The Protestants just wanted to take out books which supported Church teachings over their own.
What I was saying is that there were not protestant religions when these books were being debated. The Canon of Sacred Scripture was ultimately a debate. After this canon, there were debates, even among the Catholic Church. Most involved Old Testament books, but the debate existed. So please don’t compare me to a child trying to disprove a simple equation, because that’s not what I’m doing.
 
Actually Luther was the one who questioned the canonicity of Hebrews and James
which he called “an Epistle of straw”.
That is correct because these books contradicted his own doctrine. He wanted all books taken out of the Bible which did that.
 
If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, then why did Rome question the inspiration of James and Hebrews and then later accept it? Conversely Rome accepted some books as Scripture and then later rejected them.
Which books did Rome accept and then reject. This is all new to me.
If the Catholic church really is illuminated by the Holy Spirit so that we can trust it as God’s one true Church, then why was it so wrong about something seemingly simple? Shouldn’t the Holy See have known all along?
God taught Israel about Himself in steps. Noah didn’t understand God as well as Abraham, who didn’t understand God as deeply as Moses, who didn’t understand God as deeply as David.

The Holy Spirit has done the same thing with the Church. That’s why we have the development of Doctrine that you, as an Anglican, accept today. The teaching on the Eucharist, for example, has become more fully developed as the Church studied it further and further. Her understanding of the Canon developed over years as well.

But I’m curious, what books did Rome accept, reject, or whatever?
 
If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, then why did Rome question the inspiration of James and Hebrews and then later accept it?
Furthermore, you seem to imply that the Roman Catholic Church didn’t give the world the Bible. If not, WHO DID?
 
As far as I know, the first official ruling by Rome on the subject of the canon of Sacred Scripture was the Decree of Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus, in 382. I see no difference between its canon and later Catholic canons, such as the those of the Councils of Florence and Trent.
 
What I was saying is that there were not protestant religions when these books were being debated. The Canon of Sacred Scripture was ultimately a debate. After this canon, there were debates, even among the Catholic Church. Most involved Old Testament books, but the debate existed. So please don’t compare me to a child trying to disprove a simple equation, because that’s not what I’m doing.
I wasn’t comparing you to a child (unless you are debating the Canon); I was comparing those who debated the Canon after it had been settled by the Church to children–most notably Martin Luther and his ilk.

My point is that when the Church has settled something, then it is settled: “And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven.” I have never heard that Catholic debated the Canon after the Church decreed it, but maybe they did. If they did, then they were being silly, like a child debating whether 2 plus 2 equals four.
 
That is correct because these books contradicted his own doctrine. He wanted all books taken out of the Bible which did that.
It’s a bit more nuanced than that. Jerome had also noted that that Hebrews and James were less-apparently apostolic than, say, the letters of Paul - he accepted them because he was obedient to the Authority of the Church, not because he was intellectually convinced. Luther rejected the authority of the Church and because of that, was reduced to deciding for himself which books were inspired.

There were, as most people here know, many books that were discussed in the early days of the Church - only a few that every accepted without question, many more that some people accepted and others did not. We all remember Hebrew and James because Luther re-activated that conversation, but many are not aware, for example, that all of the writings of John were disputed and there were many who rejected his gospel, particularly.

It is not accurate to say
Rome accepted some books as Scripture and then later rejected them.
What books were “accepted by Rome” and later rejected? Do you mean the local Church at Rome, or do you mean the Universal Church?

The Shepherd of Hermas, the letters of Clement - there were lots of legitimate, authentic writings that were not included in the final canon but were read in some regional churches in the early years. These, like John’s writings and Hebrews and John, were the subject of discourse and debate. There were also books like the Gospel of Thomas that were integral to the early heresies and so relatively simple to reject.

The question of canonicity doesn’t even begin until Marcion (mid-second century), and by the time Anathasius writes his list (367) it is apparently settled. Two hundred years in a time when both communication and travel were time-consuming and laborious is really not very long. And the list of canonical books was surely not as urgent a question as the Christology questions being sorted out and defined in the same period. (It was, don’t forget, just a list of books that would be allowed for liturgical use, that would be proclaimed as “the Word of the Lord.” No one was suggesting that once the canon was established it would become the only source of legitimate teaching. THAT was Luther’s heresy.)

In response to the OP, we believe that the Church’s decision-making process and ultimate declaration of the canon is reliable because we accept Jesus’ statement that He will send the Holy Spirit to instruct the Apostles (and, we believe, their successors) and protect them from teaching error. Unlike Luther, we do not need to figure this out for ourselves and in our own intellects. And unlike Luther, we do not believe that the canonical Scripture is the only manifestation of God’s teaching we can rely upon.
 
My point is that when the Church has settled something, then it is settled: “And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven.” I have never heard that Catholic debated the Canon after the Church decreed it, but maybe they did. If they did, then they were being silly, like a child debating whether 2 plus 2 equals four.
The Church decided the Canon in the early 4th century, but didn’t bind Her finding until Trent. Hence, people could question the Canon from within the Church. I’m not sure when St. Jerome translated the Bible into the Latin Vulgate, but he would be a good example of this. There were some Bishops in the 14 century that may have questioned it, but they never acted childish and called Rome “Arrogant Papists” simply because they disagreed with Rome.
 
Please…Luther did not “remove” any books from the Bible. He translated the OT with the aid of the best Jewish Hebrew scolars he could find, and used the Jewish Canon…that is, the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis he worked with called those books he called the apocrypha, that they called the apocrypha, as did Jerome. But they were translated and are included in any Luther translation of the Bible in published German in his lifetime. The Jews did not consider those writings that Jerome and Luther called Apocrypha, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As to the New Testement, Luther also translated all the books of the canon, but he did Move the position of the last 4 books.

At the time of Luther there was still a lot of debate as to what was scripture, and what was not. Even today, there are Eastern churches that accept a different cannon than the western chuch.

There is a compairative chart at a web site called bible-researcher that shows what ECF’s and other organizations other than the western church considered inspired if you wish to look.
 
Please…Luther did not “remove” any books from the Bible. He translated the OT with the aid of the best Jewish Hebrew scolars he could find, and used the Jewish Canon…that is, the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis he worked with called those books he called the apocrypha, that they called the apocrypha, as did Jerome. But they were translated and are included in any Luther translation of the Bible in published German in his lifetime. The Jews did not consider those writings that Jerome and Luther called Apocrypha, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As to the New Testement, Luther also translated all the books of the canon, but he did Move the position of the last 4 books.

At the time of Luther there was still a lot of debate as to what was scripture, and what was not. Even today, there are Eastern churches that accept a different cannon than the western chuch.

There is a compairative chart at a web site called bible-researcher that shows what ECF’s and other organizations other than the western church considered inspired if you wish to look.
Hmm… As a Catholic, Luther accepted the OT Canon of the Church. Then as a Lutheran he accepted a Canon without the 7 books.

It sounds to me like Luther removed 7 books from the Bible and tried to remove more!
 
My understanding is that the Jews in about 70 AD or so removed those 7 books (Deuterocanonical books) from their scriptures. Reasons given were they never had a Jewish source of the books and so were uncertain of their validity. Others have said that they also wanted to remove books that pointed to Jesus as messiah. Luther agreed to use the Jewish version of the OT that had those books already removed.

The Hebrew Septuagint version of Jewish scripture contained the ‘extra’ books. It was also the version that Jesus used. And we know this because he quoted several scriptures from that version. The early church used the Septuagint version of scripture and did not obviously agree with the Jews who removed those books. Those books are included in the Latin Vulgate which used the Septuagint as its source and was written in the late 4th century.

So it was actually the Jews that removed the books from their scripture and Luther agreed with their version. With the recent discovery of the dead sea scrolls we have now recovered a Jewish version of those missing books. So we can put to rest the idea that they may not be of Jewish origin.
 
Please…Luther did not “remove” any books from the Bible. He translated the OT with the aid of the best Jewish Hebrew scolars he could find, and used the Jewish Canon…that is, the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis he worked with called those books he called the apocrypha, that they called the apocrypha, as did Jerome. But they were translated and are included in any Luther translation of the Bible in published German in his lifetime. The Jews did not consider those writings that Jerome and Luther called Apocrypha, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As to the New Testement, Luther also translated all the books of the canon, but he did Move the position of the last 4 books.

At the time of Luther there was still a lot of debate as to what was scripture, and what was not. Even today, there are Eastern churches that accept a different cannon than the western chuch.

There is a compairative chart at a web site called bible-researcher that shows what ECF’s and other organizations other than the western church considered inspired if you wish to look.
**Luther used the “Jewish Canon?”
**
Surely that alone would provide serious doubts when you follow the teachings of someone who accepts the Jewish Canon over the Canon defined & used by the Catholic Church from the earliest days.

**Which OT would you rather use-the OT (Septuagint) used by Jesus, the NT writers (quote from Septuagint 90% of the time) & the early Church, or the Jewish canon OT used by later Jews (3rd centruy AD) who had rejected Jesus & persecuted Christianity???
**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Pecatoribus!

mark
 
The obvious answer being that Rome was not the totallity of the Church until it decided to head off on its own. 🙂
**Rome was not & still is not the “totality” of the Church & never headed out on it’s own.

The Bishop of Rome was always the Head of the Church, even from the very earliest days to today!

My opinion is not important, but Jesus tells us;
**
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Mt 16:18)


Without Peter & his successors in charge to decide the Canon & other key issues, you end up with the utter confusion that has 20,000+ Protestant denominations using a Bible that is incomplete & interpreting Sacred Scripture however they see fit, often with conflicting results.

**The Early Church always accepted the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Church. Around AD 80, the Church of Corinth deposed it’s lawful leaders. The fourth bishop of Rome, Pope Clement I, was called to settle the matter even though St. John the Apostle was still alive and much closer to Corinth than was Rome.

St Irenaus, who was taught by St. Polycarp (a disciple of St. John the Apostle), stresses that Christians must be united to the Church of Rome in order to maintain the Apostolic Tradition. He then lists all the bishops of Rome up to his time.

For 250 years the Roman Emperors tried to destroy Christianity through persecution. In the first 200 years of Christianity, every Pope but one was martyred-the Romans certainly knew who the head of the Church was!”
**
St. Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110) appointed by St. Peter also recognizes Rome’s Primacy.
(Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham, in ‘Beginning Apologetics 1 www.catholicapologetics.com)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
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