Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

[Neil_Anthony]

Well, that’s just boring! Let’s try to find something on which we disagree, then.

Catholic doctrine also says that anyone who fails to enter the Catholic Church and is culpable for this failure cannot be saved. Only those who labour in ignorance of the Catholic religion can be united implicitly to the Church, not those who know of her and fail to enter.

Yes I agree with that too, although I understand that simply having “heard of” the Catholic church isn’t the same as having real knowledge of what the Catholic Church really is.

The only problem here is that when it is stated “there is no salvation outside the church”, it leaves out the whole question of culpability. Modern psychology has shown that people are not the ideal rational free agents that philosophy once saw us to be, but rather we are creatures of habit, and our thought processes actually filter out ideas that go against our pre-conceived notions without us even being aware of it. It’s not clear at all who is culpable and who isn’t. The question of culpability has left the whole question looking very grey instead of black and white.

So, why say “there is no salvation outside the church” when instead we could phrase it “salvation is offered through the church and we are aware of no other path to salvation”?

 

[pnewton]

I don’t find your insinuations amusing or charitable. AudioSancto makes it clear why they do not reveal the names of the Priests featured there. There is no “secret” - the only reason I know of this Priest is because he gave a lenten mission at the novus ordo I used to attend about a decade ago.

Then let me put this more simply.* I* do not give credence due a postition based on undocumented anything, especially if it appears to me to contradict the Catechism. There nothing uncharitable at all about this. Anonymous means anonymous. The decision this site makes is there’s to make, but as I have said a thousand times, there is no free lunch. Such a decision has a down side. There is just too much misinformation out there. I know of no other medium of communication where those who speak with authority do so under the cloak of anonymity.

Whether you think if uncharitable or not, it** is** a secret. You are aware of this. I am not. There was nothing insinuated, as you put it, other than this fact. Thus, you are entitled to grant authority to this speaker where I am not so inclined.

 

[MIKE46]

Ok, so most people in the US, probably the world, are born into whichever religion they are part of, right? So you’re telling me God would set up a system where if you’re not part of the “club”, you will go to hell??? That is outrageous, even if that’s what the Church teaches. .Do you know that’s exactly what cults teach followers to keep them from leaving?? I believe the Bible. Jesus died for ALL of our sins. We need to be baptized, profess our faith in Jesus Christ, and walk in His ways. Kinda strange that all those letters in the NT to different peoples and Churches, and there was no EMPHASIS on being part of a single Church to be saved. Seems like the apostles spent alot of time emphasizing faith and good works to me. If Church membership were CRITICAL to salvation, wouldn’t this have been repeated over and over and over and over??? The Bible isn’t trying to TRICK anyone, ALL are desired saved, so WHY isn’t Church membership declared as a key to salvation everytime Faith or baptism, or good works are mentioned??? Sorry, I may myself convert to the Catholic Church, but this makes NO sense at all to me. **My grandmother just passed, she was Lutheran, was deeply religious, prayed incessantly, spoke with the pastor incessantly, confessed her sins to him, etc. and I guarantee you she is, or will be in Heaven.**If what you all say is true, wouldn’t it be CLEARLY spelled out in the Bible for ALL to read and be saved?? I grew up Lutheran and hadn’t heard this declaration until in my 30’s. Sorry, just because many of you were born into the Church and you follow it’s teachings doesn’t make you the “Chosen”. Isn’t relying on that what keeps getting the Jews in trouble?

This statement above almost everything else said on this thread reflects the view that is often heard these days. I guarantee that person is or will be in Heaven. How arrogant can we be? In one fell swoop we have done away with any necesity on the part of anyone to comply with Gods laws. Honestly speaking, the only ones that we know with any certainity at all that are in Heaven are those so proclaimed by the Church and by extension the Holy Spirit.

The Church throughout history has always maintained the same stance and used the same reasoning. Show me one example, just one where the Church says that those outside the faith WILL BE SAVED. All it says is that it is possible. Thats it, possible Heck, not even everyone in the Church will be saved. Anyone who dies unrepentanant with a mortal sin on their soul is not going to be saved, in the Chucrh or not.

This curious ideathat all will be saved regardless of their faith or lack thereof is purely protestant in origin and has no plave in any intelligent discpurse on the relative merits of salvation.

That is unless of course you are a protestant or subscribe to their views.

 

[HisWill777]

This statement above almost everything else said on this thread reflects the view that is often heard these days. I guarantee that person is or will be in Heaven. How arrogant can we be? In one fell swoop we have done away with any necesity on the part of anyone to comply with Gods laws. Honestly speaking, the only ones that we know with any certainity at all that are in Heaven are those so proclaimed by the Church and by extension the Holy Spirit.

The Church throughout history has always maintained the same stance and used the same reasoning. Show me one example, just one where the Church says that those outside the faith WILL BE SAVED. All it says is that it is possible. Thats it, possible Heck, not even everyone in the Church will be saved. Anyone who dies unrepentanant with a mortal sin on their soul is not going to be saved, in the Chucrh or not.

This curious ideathat all will be saved regardless of their faith or lack thereof is purely protestant in origin and has no plave in any intelligent discpurse on the relative merits of salvation.

That is unless of course you are a protestant or subscribe to their views.

I never said the Church says those outside the faith WILL BE SAVED. The Bible, His infallible Word tells us everything we need to know to be saved. He did not, nor would he keep this a secret or impart to a few chosen fallible men. That is what is so great about Jesus being sent by His Father, as well as his Resurrection. He told us over and over in Scripture what we need to do to be saved. That is the Good News!!!

 

[irishpatrick]

Personally, I think the more interesting question is:

What is to become of the souls of people who during this life were Catholics for many years, yet at some point rejected the faith and left for say a Protestant Church?

I suspect some will say those souls might be saved if they were ignorant of the faith. Yet, many have left the Church after having learned a great deal about it…we see this in practice in the millions today. If those souls are likely doomed, then shouldn’t the Church be shouting that to the world in order to help save those souls?

 

[Adeodatus]

I suggest that everyone concerned with the doctrine “Extra Ecclesiam Nullus Salus” read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is entirely insufficient to merely hear the phrase “Outside the Church there is no salvation” and then gin up your own backwoods interpretation, like a Protestant or Feeneyist heretic would do. The phrase has a specific meaning when used by the Church, and that meaning is defined and laid out in the CCC.

The phrase itself is parsed in items 846-848. To properly understand those paragraphs, it is necessary to read at least items 836-838 (“Who belongs to the Catholic Church?”) and items 839-845 (“The Church and non-Christians”).

Anyone who rejects the teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter and steadfastly refuses her definition of the phrase threatens to place himself outside of that Church, like the ironic case of the excommunicated Leonard Feeney (also a raving anti-semite and probably a madman).

 

[irishpatrick]

So, why say “there is no salvation outside the church” when instead we could phrase it “salvation is offered through the church and we are aware of no other path to salvation”?

Because that is not what the Church holds, nor is it what Christ said.

 

[whatischarity]

Neil Anthony writes:

So, why say “there is no salvation outside the church” when instead we could phrase it “salvation is offered through the church and we are aware of no other path to salvation”?

I think it is an excellent idea to try to paraphrase the meaning of “there is no salvation outside of the church” since it deals with the improtant issue of salvation and can so easily lead to terrible misunderstandings. Another poster has paraphrased it as this:

You must be Catholic to get into heaven. If you die and are outside the Church you won’t make it to heaven

These are 2 very divergent views but trying to succintly paraphrase the issue based on what the church teaches and what is contained in scripture would be beneficial.
How about this:** All who find salvation are saved through the merits earned by Jesus Christ and distributed through His church (whether they are formal members of His Church or not. Whether they have any knowledge of Jesus or not.). Those who purposefully reject Jesus and His Church with full knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and the Church is His instrument for salvation, cannot share in salvation.**
Recall that in the Old Testament God only chose to reveal Himself in a unique way to the Jewish peoples. During the times of the Apostles, there was sustained and heated debate regarding openning up membership to the gentiles. I would conclude that the Jewish people were amazingly fortunate to have, through no merit of their own, been given such knowledge of God. I would also conclude that God did not judge non-Jews during Old testament times the same way He judged the Jews. Both Jews and gentiles could be God fearing but in very different ways but only Jews could be judged by how they followed the Law.
Correlating this to today, Roman Catholics are amazingly fortunate and hopefully the good fortune of being Roman Catholic is extended to all men but don’t start thinking that God is going to judge all men based on how they follow Roman Catholic theology but rather on whether they were God fearing and utilized the grace they were given.

 

[Jacafamala]

No, that’s wrong… there’s no salvation inside the Catholic Church! :sad_bye:

If you deny the Barque of Peter, you will perish.

 

[Lycorth]

Certainly, I agree with the statement that outside the Church there is no salvation. At the very utmost least, this means that Christ, who is the source of all Church teachings, is in control of salvation; His grace determines our destiny, which is also a Church teaching. It is incumbent on us to behave as if there is no salvation outside the Church for in doing less we will not help to build a truly Christian society.

It may well be that, even after death, the Lord may choose to give individuals one last chance to accept His Church and all its teachings. But it is not for us to speculate; we must behave as if the Church is the only source of salvation and believe it within our hearts. I liken it to strict adherence to safety protocols; I know I can reach inside that moving machine and probably not lose my hand, but it’s not worth risking, or I know I can look into the muzzle of my loaded rifle and not risk getting my head blown off, but it’s just not worth risking.

I never said the Church says those outside the faith WILL BE SAVED. The Bible, His infallible Word tells us everything we need to know to be saved. He did not, nor would he keep this a secret or impart to a few chosen fallible men. That is what is so great about Jesus being sent by His Father, as well as his Resurrection. He told us over and over in Scripture what we need to do to be saved. That is the Good News!!!

However, without the Church to teach the Bible (or the Church to gather together the first Bible, at the Council of Rome in 382), we would not know what the Scriptures teach. Christ didn’t mean for us to make up willy-nilly interpretations of Scripture or mean for us to have thousands of feuding and contradictory sects (as characterizes current Protestantism) - He meant for one Faith, one Church, one way for all.

 

[whatischarity]

Perhaps the Church has discovered that she does not get results by telling people they are going to hell soley for not being members. Perhaps She knows this is not true. In the New Testament, Jesus bitterly condemns the Pharisees but not the commom people. He states He is merciful and that His yoke is sweet and His burden light. Perhaps by Catholics modeling the teachings of Jesus and the benefits of membership in His Church more people will be fortunate enough to be members of His Church than would be brought into the Church by Catholics telling them they are surely going to eternal hellfire and separation from God due to their purposeful wickedness of rejecting Jesus by leaving His Church.

 

[HisWill777]

However, without the Church to teach the Bible (or the Church to gather together the first Bible, at the Council of Rome in 382), we would not know what the Scriptures teach. Christ didn’t mean for us to make up willy-nilly interpretations of Scripture or mean for us to have thousands of feuding and contradictory sects (as characterizes current Protestantism) - He meant for one Faith, one Church, one way for all.

I know what the Bible teaches, and have never been a Catholic. Funny, my interpretations agree with the Church’s too in almost all cases. How’s that possible?? He never said we needed a Church to do this for us. His Word is for all to hear, not to be “told” what we hear. He created a Church for fellowship, not for it’s leaders to claim infallibility and create rules, doctrines, etc. The Jewish Churches of past did much the same and look what Jesus had to say about them.

And the Catholic Church hasn’t been feuding with itself and others since it’s establishment? Wow.

 

[HisWill777]

Perhaps the Church has discovered that she does not get results by telling people they are going to hell soley for not being members. Perhaps She knows this is not true. In the New Testament, Jesus bitterly condemns the Pharisees but not the commom people. He states He is merciful and that His yoke is sweet and His burden light. Perhaps by Catholics modeling the teachings of Jesus and the benefits of membership in His Church more people will be fortunate enough to be members of His Church than would be brought into the Church by Catholics telling them they are surely going to eternal hellfire and separation from God due to their purposeful wickedness of rejecting Jesus by leaving His Church.

You are right on. We all need to look at Jesus true teachings. Look at the NT, it’s almost all about Love. I would gladly join His Church if this were the case. Many outsiders think Catholics don’t want us outsiders in “their club”.

Look at many of your posts: cold, structured statements, almost robotic. Every answer is about doctrine, or in defense of mere men. If Jesus is truly head of the Catholic Church, you aren’t listening. His message is about love, not doctrine, Traditions, rules, Catechisms.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I believe the Bible. Jesus died for ALL of our sins. We need to be baptized, profess our faith in Jesus Christ, and walk in His ways. Kinda strange that all those letters in the NT to different peoples and Churches, and there was no EMPHASIS on being part of a single Church to be saved. Seems like the apostles spent alot of time emphasizing faith and good works to me. If Church membership were CRITICAL to salvation, wouldn’t this have been repeated over and over and over and over??? The Bible isn’t trying to TRICK anyone, ALL are desired saved, so WHY isn’t Church membership declared as a key to salvation everytime Faith or baptism, or good works are mentioned???

Dear HisWill777,

First of all, I love your “777”! The perfection of God overcomes the imperfection of man.

To answer your question, it’s important to know some about the nature of Scripture. When the New Testament’s first books were being written, Christianity had already existed for about 20 years. During those 20 years, Christianity was passed on exclusively through preaching, through the oral passing on of Jesus’ revelations from one mouth to another. As Acts 2:42 says, “they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching.” During that period, when people had a question, they didn’t look to the Bible for an answer. They asked the apostles their question and the apostles would tell them what Jesus told them.

When the Bible was originally written, it wasn’t intended to be a doctrinal dissertation or a list of all the truths of the Christian faith. You have a couple epistles to the Corinthians, focused on their specific needs, a long and very deep epistle to the Romans discussing the faith, some short epistles to other churches or individuals, and some long. None of them says in the introduction that it is going to present a compilation of all the truths of Christianity, though. That wasn’t the writers’ purpose. Their purpose was to meet the needs or situations of the churches or people they were writing to. In fact, certain parts of the Bible indicate that the authors didn’t even know they were writing God’s inspired Word. Maybe the Apostle John did when writing the Apocalypse, but Paul doesn’t seem to have known when he wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:12, “To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her . . .” He doesn’t seem to have known that the Lord was inspiring his words, for he says here that they are his words not the Lord’s. Is this the only uninspired passage in the Bible? No. Paul simply didn’t know how remarkably God was using him at the time.

The Christian faith was transmitted orally in this period, so no one felt like they had to have a Bible which tells Christians everything they need to believe. No one even thought about assembling a canon of New Testament books for quite a while after the 1st century. It was only by the end of the 4th century that they’d finally determined what the canon would be. Before the councils established the New Testament canon we use today, Christians had many different ideas about what the canon should be, but they submitted to Holy Spirit’s voice speaking with wisdom and authority through the council and they accepted our current New Testament.

During those first four centuries of Christian history, Christians did the same as they’d done from the beginning of Acts 2:42. They “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching.” This teaching was transmitted in oral tradition which was considered infallible, protected by God from error just as the Bible is protected from error. The Bible wasn’t written to tell every doctrine of Christian truth and it wasn’t needed to tell every doctrine of Christian truth (though IMO, it does that too, because God is so glorious). Therefore one wouldn’t have needed to see the “outside of the Church there is no salvation” dogma explicitly laid out in the Bible. The Christians of the period had the teachings of the apostles, Tradition, the same guide Christians used in the first 20 years of Christian history. The Bible was added to the teachings of the apostles, presenting the teachings of the apostles that were originally provided through oral transmission, and much (though not all) of its New Testament is written by apostles.

Now, as far as this particular issue we’re discussing goes, you need to take into account what the Church meant at that time. At the time of the apostles, the Church was both visible and invisible, mystical and corporal. It had a human structure with elders, presbyters and overseers (or bishops) who had authority over the members of the Body, the Church. As Paul wrote in Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” There are many other passages referring to the authority of the Church leaders. I won’t take the time to present all of them here.

In this time period, the dawn of Christianity, there was only one Church. All Christians were united in the apostolic teaching at that time without any division. If anyone believed in Jesus, they entered the Church. So when Peter insists to the crowds in the Book of Acts that everyone must believe in the Name of Jesus to be saved, it is assumed that they will enter the Church of Jesus, which is the Salvific Body of Jesus. There was no need for the Bible’s writers to say, “you must enter this Church of Jesus to be saved and no other,” because there was no other. But that teaching was one of the original beliefs of the Church from the very beginning, as many quotes from the Early Church Fathers prove. They believed that this was part of the apostles’ teaching, and this doctrine is actually very glorious and beautiful. I want to show you that in my next post.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Ok, so most people in the US, probably the world, are born into whichever religion they are part of, right? So you’re telling me God would set up a system where if you’re not part of the “club”, you will go to hell??? That is outrageous, even if that’s what the Church teaches. .Do you know that’s exactly what cults teach followers to keep them from leaving??

You know, people make the same kind of statement when they say conservative Christians are being cult-like, ridiculous and harsh for believing St. Peter’s statement in Acts 4:12, when he said, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” I can’t tell you how many liberals and non-Christians got riled at me for believing in that when I was a Protestant. I continue to believe in it as a Catholic. The teaching, “outside of the Church is no salvation” is part of Acts 4:12, for Paul writes that the Church is the Body of Christ. Since there is no salvation without Christ and the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is one, it follows that there is no salvation without Christ’s Body. The Bride rises as one to meet her Bridegroom.

This is also an incarnational teaching. When Christ bought our salvation on the Cross, He suffered in His Body that we might be saved. He suffered with His whole being. Salvation flowed out to us through His Blood, which was, and is, part of His Body. Just as all salvation flowed through His Body on the Cross, all salvation continues to flow through His Body on Earth. And just as He on Earth was one, spirit as well as body, so He remains one here on Earth as well in the form of His Church, visible as well as invisible but not divided.

People like your grandmother may very well be saved. The Church teaches that those that are truly ignorant of Catholicism, through no fault of their own, can still be saved through her because they aren’t judged for what they don’t know but for how they act on what they know. They are saved through and in the salvation of the Catholic Church, for all salvation of Christ is the salvation of the Church because the Church truly is Christ’s Body. If your grandmother truly loved Christ, she truly loved the Catholic Church, though she did not know it at the time, because the Catholic Church is Christ’s Body and she cannot have loved Christ while disliking His Body. She may not have known the Catholic Church for what it was, but she did love it by loving Christ. She was also united with it directly through baptism.

The teaching, “Outside of the Church is no salvation,” is a complex bit of theology. It’s deeply centered on unity, the oneness God creates between us and Himself. So much of Christianity is focused on unity. This doctrine is about how Christ’s Body shares with the Head the task of bringing salvation to the world, and it reveals in broader and more glorious terms how Acts 4:12 is true, that only through and in Christ can anyone be saved. Because salvation is found in Christ alone and the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ and His Body are one, one must find salvation through and in the Church.

I’d like to talk about this more. I may in another post . God bless you!

 

[Shin]

Perhaps the Church has discovered that she does not get results by telling people they are going to hell soley for not being members. Perhaps She knows this is not true. In the New Testament, Jesus bitterly condemns the Pharisees but not the commom people. He states He is merciful and that His yoke is sweet and His burden light. Perhaps by Catholics modeling the teachings of Jesus and the benefits of membership in His Church more people will be fortunate enough to be members of His Church than would be brought into the Church by Catholics telling them they are surely going to eternal hellfire and separation from God due to their purposeful wickedness of rejecting Jesus by leaving His Church.

Actually, while we should be full of kindness, we do also have to have the kindness to warn people of Hellfire, which the New Testament is also full of warnings of.

In fact, sermons on Hell have converted and do convert many souls. Covering it up leads to a lazy Christianity, that is not in fact, Christianity, but a religion of such laxitude that people in it – go to Hell.

To our great sorrow, which is why we must not cover up the essential need for salvation of being a completely serious and devout Catholic, as the Catholic Church is the only religion of God upon this earth, and He gave it to us to save our souls from Hell, and went to the Cross to show us how tremendous the danger to our salvation is and the penance owed sins.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

You are right on. We all need to look at Jesus true teachings. Look at the NT, it’s almost all about Love. I would gladly join His Church if this were the case. Many outsiders think Catholics don’t want us outsiders in “their club”.

Look at many of your posts: cold, structured statements, almost robotic. Every answer is about doctrine, or in defense of mere men. If Jesus is truly head of the Catholic Church, you aren’t listening. His message is about love, not doctrine, Traditions, rules, Catechisms.

ROMANS 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

 

[FAB]

Nothing in that quote, including what you’ve put in bold, contradicts to any degree what I have written. I think the problem is that you are failing to apply the hermeneutic of continuity. You’re interpreting those (admittedly vague) statements in a way which contradicts the perennial teaching of the Church, while I insist on interpreting them strictly in the light of the Church’s dogmatic teaching. Let’s take the first bold section:

"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

This statement clearly means that all those who have been baptized have had a certain indelible character placed upon them, and can be called Christians.

Certain people read into this statement things that simply aren’t there. Here’s what the statement doesn’t say:

• All people termed “Christians” under this definition can be saved
• The baptismal character is the only thing necessary for salvation
• People are not severed from the Body of the Church through heresy or schism

If the statement said any of these things, it would of course be heretical. However, it was carefully constructed to avoid heresy while taking as positive a tone as possible. That was the approach of the Council, whatever one may think of it.

Now for the second part of the bold statement:
**
“‘Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth’ are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: ‘the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.’ Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to ‘Catholic unity.’” **

This is another carefully constructed statement, which contains no heresy, but has been taken to imply heresy by many who wish to distort the church’s teachings.

Interpreted in the light of Catholic dogma, the statement “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation” can only mean two things:

• The Holy Spirit uses the elements of truth and sanctification found in these communities to bring its members into the Catholic Church
• There are many who reside in these Churches who have received baptism and are not culpable for rejecting Catholic doctrine (eg. infants) and can therefore be saved.

If interpreted in this way, it is totally compatible with Catholic doctrine. Sadly, this statement, because of its ambiguity, is frequently used by heretics to undermine the Catholic teaching and show that the Church has “changed” her teachings. It is deeply troubling that, even after the interventions of Pope Benedict XVI, these evil and destructive distortions of the Council are ongoing.

What these post are missing, is that through baptism a person becomes part of the body of Christ and through baptism are saved. The Catholic Church recognizes other christian faiths as less than whole, but it does recognize the salvation offered within them. What is the Church as we speak of it but the body of Christ. So no salvation outside of Christ.
Yet since Christ came for all, the qustion is what is meant that no one can go the Father except through Him. The Church also reconizes the salvation available through none Christian faiths. That the Holy Spirit works through these faiths as well and if they are dong the work of Christ, perhaps not in His name, of taking people form evil and bring them into redemtion and knowlege of God, they aslo are saved.
This is not a coruption of Catholic teaching, this is the teaching. It doesn’t change waht was taught in the past, but expands our understanding of God’s redemption for mankind.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Because that is not what the Church holds, nor is it what Christ said.

Sounds like someone hasn’t read the Catechism!

 

[pnewton]

If you deny the Barque of Peter, you will perish.

Yes. That is true. It is up to God alone to decide what is a denial and what is ignorance, but what you posted above should give us pause, especially for those who were Catholic and have left the Church for other faiths. While God alone is judge, I think those bring out the deepest concern for me.