Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

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Does anyone have the documentation that the vatican posted in regards to Feeney’s sisters? What position they are allowed to hold regarding “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”???
 
Rogerteder said:
Does anyone have the documentation that the vatican posted in regards to Feeney’s sisters? What position they are allowed to hold regarding “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”???
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They pretty much hold to Fr. Feeney’s teaching, although I do not understand the nuances of such things. I do know that they have held that position for a while and have continued in communion with the Catholic Church. If you do a search, you may find more info. They have been discussed here several times.
 
Be careful not to over-simplify an important dogma. I would say posters on this thread agree totally that there is No salvation outside of Jesus Christ. If you are saved, it is through Jesus Christ even if you never heard of Jesus Christ because it was His actions that reconciled man to God and openned the Gates of Heaven. Equally, there is only one Church and Jesus is the Shepherd. If you are saved, you are saved though that Church even if you are unaware of the church and so you are not a formal member of the church.

The truths of baptism of desire, baptism of blood, and invincible ignorance all demonstrate that individuals can be saved without first being formal members of the Church. Still, they are saved through the Church because this is how Jesus decided to distribute the sanctifying grace He earmed for mankind. The God fearing non-Jews and Jews who lived before Jesus were saved through Jesus and His Church even though they died long before the God Man was made incarnate and founded His Church.

Another thought would be to realize that a person is not saved soley by being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. There are criteria for salvation and the primary criteria is love.
 
Jacafamala said:
I thought that there’s actually been a lot of good postings on this thread. I’ve learned a lot.
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I misspoke. There are too many posts trying to derail the answer process. At least that is what I was referring to.There are many good postings.
 
Kind of defeats the entire purpose of God assuming human form and being brutally executed if we can just go to club med and get saved.

If you’re Catholic and don’t think it’s the only means of being saved, why are you Catholic? Why not sign up for something where you get to have indiscriminate sex and eat peyote root? Seriously. If you’re Catholic and don’t believe in EENS, you need to re-evaluate why you’re Catholic.

And fwiw, the teaching of EENS has never been expunged from Catholic Tradition. Whoever that moron is who said “so glad we don’t have this belief since v2” needs a lobotomy. Vatican 2 only chronicles the last 50 years of the church, and a spectacularly ****** 50 years at that filled with queer priests fingering little boys and offering mass in clown costumes and all sorts of atrocities. Anyhow.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Moses never joined the Catholic Church while on earth, are you saying Moses is in hell?

Or are you saying that starting at the moment of the Crucifixion, that every devout Jew who died without having heard of Christ is now in hell?

Or would you set the turning point at some other event, like the resurrection or pentecost? No matter where you set it, you’ll be condemning holy people who never heard of Christ to hell.
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Yes! All those who died before Jesus’ decent to hell were in hell. The definition of hell was meant as a place of the dead.
 
couponfit said:
Yes! All those who died before Jesus’ decent to hell were in hell. The definition of hell was meant as a place of the dead.
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the limbo of the fathers is basically an outer ring of Hell. That’s why when Jacob thought Joesph to be dead, he said something to the effect of meeting him in Hell, or going to hell, something along those lines. Don’t have a douay handy right now.
 
Don’t bring up an old thread please! The mod just posted a sticky that we are not allowed to resurrect old threads. If you wish to discuss the topic please open up a new thread.
 
brotherhrolf said:
…There was no salvation outside the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II and I give thanks to God that we no longer have this belief.
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Mithrandylan said:
…And fwiw, the teaching of EENS has never been expunged from Catholic Tradition. Whoever that moron is who said “so glad we don’t have this belief since v2” needs a lobotomy. …
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The complete teaching is this: if a catholic leaves the church to seek salvation outside, it will be a futile effort. Outside the Church, there is no salvation for Catholics.

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is the institution established for salvation by God Himself. However, in doing so He did not forfeit His right to save people through other ways and means. The CC has made it very clear that followers of other religions too have access to truth and God’s will is to save all humans.
Excerpts from the
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.
 
Pitcharan said:
The complete teaching is this: if a catholic leaves the church to seek salvation outside, it will be a futile effort. Outside the Church, there is no salvation for Catholics.

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is the institution established for salvation by God Himself. However, in doing so He did not forfeit Hid right to save people through other ways and means. The CC has made it very clear that followers of other religions too have access to truth and God’s will is to save all humans.
Excerpts from the
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.
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If God’s will was that all were to be saved, all would be saved. But that is not the case, nor is it His will. It certainly may be His desire but not His will. Not all are saved.

Any means of “extraordinary” salvation (ie, not being baptized with water) STILL go through the body of the Church. An “implicit” membership to her, if you will. There are no muslims in heaven, there are no buddhists in heaven, there are no Jews in heaven.

It is worth considering what Christ said when He told us that if we seek we will find, and if we knock it shall be opened for us. Was He kidding? Being sarcastic? Dramatic? Or is He God and complete Truth? If He is, and that is what our faith says He is, those who desire to be part of His Church won’t be left out hanging to dry. But if they are saved, it is NOT by merit of their desire, God will provide for them.
 
Pitcharan said:
The complete teaching is this: if a catholic leaves the church to seek salvation outside, it will be a futile effort. Outside the Church, there is no salvation for Catholics.

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is the institution established for salvation by God Himself. However, in doing so He did not forfeit His right to save people through other ways and means. The CC has made it very clear that followers of other religions too have access to truth and God’s will is to save all humans.
Excerpts from the
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.
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Its also worth noting that nothing in your quote states that non-Catholics can be saved without converting.
 
Peter_Gabriel said:
Its also worth noting that nothing in your quote states that non-Catholics can be saved without converting.
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CC does not say that conversion to Catholicism is the only way to salvation. Apart from the ‘baptism of desire’ route, how non-Catholics are saved is not fully defined; but that they also have the offer of salvation is clearly said.
 
Peter_Gabriel said:
Its also worth noting that nothing in your quote states that non-Catholics can be saved without converting.
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Nor does it say they(Non Catholics) will not get saved without converting to the Catholic Church.

If you made this statement to try to prove your position, it has failed to support your position, at least to this reader.
 
couponfit said:
Yes! All those who died before Jesus’ decent to hell were in hell. The definition of hell was meant as a place of the dead.
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Key word here is were. Where are they (Moses /Abraham) now?
IMHO they are in Heaven. It is Gods choice not your supposition that is the truth.
Peace.
 
Pitcharan said:
What about Abraham?
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Abraham (as well as Adam, Eve, Jacob, Moses, etc.) are all part of the communion of saints. They’re in the martyrology. They are not Jews in the modern, post-Christ sense. This much has to be understood taht the fathers of the OT ARE Catholic, because the Catholic faith is the fulfillment of their faith. It is not a different religion, and judaism now has nothing to do with OT judaism.
 
Pitcharan said:
CC does not say that conversion to Catholicism is the only way to salvation. Apart from the ‘baptism of desire’ route, how non-Catholics are saved is not fully defined; but that they also have the offer of salvation is clearly said.
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The cc is one single Catechism written with the “spirit of v2.” What it says is close to nothing- it makes a thousand something proclamations, all too ambigous to be made heads or tails of. It says Muslims are part of God’s plan of salvation. And I agree, insofar as it they don’t become Catholic they’ll fry.

The point of EENS has been understood very clearly for the first 1950 years of the church and been stated by a good half-dozen popes and close to a dozen church fathers. It is Sacred Tradition and long-standing doctrine. If you disagree, you’ve got to do better than “well, the cc says”

Because I think the ccc is, by and large, useless. When it lines up with Tradition I listen, but it’s largely a novelty and ambigous. Why you’d support the ambiguity of the ccc and ignore the very clear and unequivocal proclamations of past popes and councils taht state POINT BLANK that “there is no salvation outside the church” is beyond me.
 
Listening to this has made me physically sick. Makes me ashamed to be a Catholic.
This is no better than radical Islam.

Pope = God
Catholic Church = God

Mk: 10:31
" But many who are first will be last, and the last first"
 
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