serpent

[billcu1]

A protestant tried to tell me it was Jesus who bruised the head of the serpent. Wasn’t that Mary? Also they said that Satan didn’t know who Jesus was because the bible says “If we would’ve know we crucified the Lord of Glory we wouldn’ve” or something like that. Does anyone have any apologetics on this?

 

[JerryZ]

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between you and the woman, between your offspring and her offspring. She will crush your head, and you will lie in wait for her heel.”

Of course we can postulate that Mary did crush it by assenting to God’s plan and bring forth Jesus. Yes Jesus has the power to crush him BUT God chose to work through Mary

 

[NHInsider]

I believe the Hebrew pronoun is not gender (or number) specific, most translations say “he” or “it” shall crush your head, the D-R says “she.” The notes on the RSV-CE indicate that the “she shall crush” Latin translation appears in several early translations (pre-Jerome) but does not insist upon it, attributing it to “possibly originally a copyist error.” However, if it did say “she” it would refer, grammatically, to Eve; Mary of course is the New Eve as Jesus is the New Adam, but since the ultimate destruction of Satan is as a result of the Cross, I don’t think I would attempt to fight this as apologetics.

I think interpreting 1 Cor. 2:8 as referring to Satan is a stretch. It’s pretty clear from the scene of the Temptation and from the witness of various demons that Satan did know who Jesus was.

Sally

 

[billcu1]

I believe the Hebrew pronoun is not gender (or number) specific, most translations say “he” or “it” shall crush your head, the D-R says “she.” The notes on the RSV-CE indicate that the “she shall crush” Latin translation appears in several early translations (pre-Jerome) but does not insist upon it, attributing it to “possibly originally a copyist error.” However, if it did say “she” it would refer, grammatically, to Eve; Mary of course is the New Eve as Jesus is the New Adam, but since the ultimate destruction of Satan is as a result of the Cross, I don’t think I would attempt to fight this as apologetics.

I think interpreting 1 Cor. 2:8 as referring to Satan is a stretch. It’s pretty clear from the scene of the Temptation and from the witness of various demons that Satan did know who Jesus was.

Sally

1 Cori 2:8 sounds to me as the princes of the world are talking about the then rulers myself. But Then she’s going by that blessed KJV which says “seed”. King James was one of the last rulers to believe in “divine right of kings” so I suppose was arrogant enough to believe his version was right. Does the D-R go back to the vulgate.

 

[NHInsider]

1 Cori 2:8 sounds to me as the princes of the world are talking about the then rulers myself. But Then she’s going by that blessed KJV which says “seed”. King James was one of the last rulers to believe in “divine right of kings” so I suppose was arrogant enough to believe his version was right. Does the D-R go back to the vulgate.

D-R does follow the Vulgate, yes.

All the old translations (including D-R) say “seed.” That is, in fact, the protoevangelium - a descendant of the woman would conquer the serpent: promise of the Incarnation.

The KJV isn’t a horrible translation, btw. The 1611 version even included all of the deuterocanon. NIV is far more trouble.

Sally

 

[billcu1]

D-R does follow the Vulgate, yes.

All the old translations (including D-R) say “seed.” That is, in fact, the protoevangelium - a descendant of the woman would conquer the serpent: promise of the Incarnation.

The KJV isn’t a horrible translation, btw. The 1611 version even included all of the deuterocanon. NIV is far more trouble.

Sally

“A descendant of the woman…” yes does this mean Mary or Jesus to us?

 

[NHInsider]

It has to be Jesus, theologically. Our Lady was saved by grace, grace poured out on the Cross when Jesus triumphed over Satan. By God’s choice this grace was given to her from the moment of her conception, in order to prepare/provide immaculate flesh for the Incarnation. But she is still creature, and her salvation derives from His sacrifice.

Sally

 

[irenaeuslyons]

I am ok with it being “she”, but women don’t normally have “seed”. So it seems to me that the translation is a judgement call. I trust St. Jerome.

 

[Mathetes2010]

A protestant tried to tell me it was Jesus who bruised the head of the serpent. Wasn’t that Mary? Also they said that Satan didn’t know who Jesus was because the bible says “If we would’ve know we crucified the Lord of Glory we wouldn’ve” or something like that. Does anyone have any apologetics on this?

Without getting into Genesis 3:15 and the complexities around the passage, we have recourse to the NT to understand this passage as well. Christ - Head and mystical Body (and this would include Mary as well) - all participate in the crushing of Satan underfoot. Specifically writing to the Romans, Paul says, “And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you” (see Romans 16:20; DR).

Your second inquiry relates not to Satan but to the authorities living at the time of Christ. Had they known Jesus was the Lord God, they would not have crucified Him (1 Corinthians 2:8; see also Acts 3:15, 17).