Set me straight about the Eucharist

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Catholic view (transubstantiation), as I understand it:

Similar to what happened in the Bible when angels appeared as men, as in Genesis 18 and 19 and Heb 13:2. Even though they behaved like men, they were not really men but angels in disguise.

After the bread and wine are consecrated at Mass, Jesus is present under the appearance of bread and wine. Even though it still looks and acts like bread and wine, it is not really bread and wine but Jesus, the true God-man, in disguise.

In essence, Jesus is one person with two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, who can appear as bread and wine.
Lutheran view (consubstatiation), as I understand it:
Similar to what happened in the Incarnation when God the Son assumed a human nature becoming Jesus, true God and true man.

After the consecration of the bread and wine, Jesus, at least temporarily, assumes the nature of bread and wine so what is present during communion is true God and true man and true bread and true wine.

In essence, Jesus is one person with four natures: divine, human, bread and wine.
 
I have a question - what happens to the blessed bread & wine after a Lutheran service? Do Lutherans have tabernacles?

PS This is a serious question, I’ve only ever met Church of Ireland people (Anglicans)
 
Lot’s of words sometimes confuse.

Catholic Host: Appears to be bread.
Lutheran Host: Is bread.

Catholics: Host is completely God.
Luthernas: Host is mixed with God.
 
Thank you for all of your wonderful replies. I can see that I’m going to have to just print this post for her - too much to read over the phone. Thanks especially to the Matrix answer - very creative, and yes she’s generation X and huge into the Matrix movies.

Trust me when I say I am NOT trying to make this difficult, I am just trying to understand so I can explain it when I’m asked by my Protestant friends who don’t get the big deal over the Eucharist. I’ve heard more than once - just be Lutheran, it’s the same thing without all the Mary stuff. (sorry - their words, not mine)

This is the deal though… bear06 - you said that w/ Catholics Host is completly God. Why then would Celiacs have a problem with it? In an earlier post someone said they would indeed have problems because it “appears” to be bread (but in substance it’s Jesus??) That would seem to mean that DESPITE it looking like bread it’s not - so where’s the problem w/ Celiacs? See, it seems like you’re saying, “It looks like bread but it’s not… it’s JESUS - no bread remains.” But Celiacs know that if they take it, it will make them sick (My very good friend’s daughter has celliac disease, very severe and she’ll only take a sip of the wine) Now I know someone gave an example of a Celiac that took the host without getting sick but it was said they had GREAT FAITH but most 8 year olds I know barely “get it” so isn’t it too much to ask them to have GREAT FAITH? And if they got sick would we say, “Oh you lack faith?” That sounds so extream.

So I still don’t get it. If it’s not bread at all anymore (Catholic view) them why does everyone say Celiacs can just drink the wine and avoid the host rather than saying, “Go ahead & take the host… it’s not wheat anymore anyways… it’s Jesus!” That’s NOT said. Instead they fight to have a rice host (some Priests provide this I am told) and also they suggest just wine.

So it does sound like you believe it’s still bread but also Jesus so how is that different from Lutherans??? :confused:
 
carol marie:
Thank you for all of your wonderful replies. I can see that I’m going to have to just print this post for her - too much to read over the phone. Thanks especially to the Matrix answer - very creative, and yes she’s generation X and huge into the Matrix movies.

Trust me when I say I am NOT trying to make this difficult, I am just trying to understand so I can explain it when I’m asked by my Protestant friends who don’t get the big deal over the Eucharist. I’ve heard more than once - just be Lutheran, it’s the same thing without all the Mary stuff. (sorry - their words, not mine)

This is the deal though… bear06 - you said that w/ Catholics Host is completly God. Why then would Celiacs have a problem with it? In an earlier post someone said they would indeed have problems because it “appears” to be bread (but in substance it’s Jesus??) That would seem to mean that DESPITE it looking like bread it’s not - so where’s the problem w/ Celiacs? See, it seems like you’re saying, “It looks like bread but it’s not… it’s JESUS - no bread remains.” But Celiacs know that if they take it, it will make them sick (My very good friend’s daughter has celliac disease, very severe and she’ll only take a sip of the wine) Now I know someone gave an example of a Celiac that took the host without getting sick but it was said they had GREAT FAITH but most 8 year olds I know barely “get it” so isn’t it too much to ask them to have GREAT FAITH? And if they got sick would we say, “Oh you lack faith?” That sounds so extream.

So I still don’t get it. If it’s not bread at all anymore (Catholic view) them why does everyone say Celiacs can just drink the wine and avoid the host rather than saying, “Go ahead & take the host… it’s not wheat anymore anyways… it’s Jesus!” That’s NOT said. Instead they fight to have a rice host (some Priests provide this I am told) and also they suggest just wine.

So it does sound like you believe it’s still bread but also Jesus so how is that different from Lutherans??? :confused:
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We believe it is Jesus only.

When you pay for something with a debit card you lose money from you account right? And the store gets money in theirs, right? What they received wasn’t the paper bills that you carry in your wallet, it was really just your signature on a piece of paper, right? All the tests on that piece of paper would show it’s just regular paper, not a treasury note, but no matter what it happened to look like, it IS money and has all the effects of money on your accounts. This is not a perfect analogy because of the ‘symbolism’ in it, but there isn’t going to be a perfect analogy (the best is Abraham and the angels) because the Eucharist is the only miracle of its kind and nothing else compares to it.

If you do chemical tests on the bread and wine you fill find that it has the chemical makeup of bread and wine (with the exception of the rare times God has intervened to cause it to turn into heart tissue or for certain patients with celiac disease to take it without effect - those are the exceptions and should not be used to understand the mystery of the Eucharist).

Remember that what it appears to be, what its PHYSICAL form is (it’s APPEARANCE), is bread and wine. Just as Abraham could not tell the difference between the angels and men, nothing we can do could tell the difference of the bread and wine before and after consecration. The SUBSTANCE of the bread and wine have changed so that it is truly now CHRIST no matter what it looks or tastes like. It has all the chemical properties of bread so patients with celiac disease will have symptoms when eating it (with rare exceptions as stated above) but Christ has (through a mysterious miracle) made its substance HIS body, soul, blood and divinity. How that happens, how it works we all have to accept on faith and will only know when we meet Him in eternity.

God bless
 
Carol Marie:

Just tell her all you can say is that “IT’S A MYSTERY”…but it’s what God has intended since the beginning…2000 years ago…

It’s one of THE neatest things isn’t it? What the Protestants have all this entertainment, dynamic pastors, etc. etc. nothing comes close to the Real Presence…
 
It doesn’t matter what happens to a persons body when they eat it such as celiacs, alcoholics, etc. It is still completely Our Lord Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. At some point you just have to admit even to your Lutheran friend that it is a mystery!

Lack of Faith is a problem for all of us. I know there have been saints who’s Faith is so pure that when they went to receive Communion they’d actually see the Host as flesh. Anybody remember the names of some of these saints?

No priest should ever be using a rice host. If they do, the wafer cannot be consecrated and is not Our Lord. There are some nuns, however, that are making an extremely low wheat and water wafer now for celiacs.

I’ve heard the celiac debate before but I’m just curious, does anyone know of celiac who has taken the consecrated Host and gotten sick? I’m not saying they’re not out there, I’m just wondering if any personally knows of any. So far I’ve only read of people on the forums who are looking for alternatives to the wheat wafer because they or their kids are sickened by wheat but it didn’t sound like any of them had actually been made sick by the Host.
 
OK, so here’s the follow up. Spoke to my friend - read all the replies together and we agreed that, sorry to say you’re trying to have it both ways. Catholics & Lutheran believe the SAME THING about the Eucharist. Catholics SAY they believe it’s ONLY Jesus, on one hand, but then on the other hand you say that sweet nuns are trying to make hosts that contain less wheat for Celiac sufferers. Can’t have it both ways. If it’s ONLY Jesus and no longer bread that isn’t necessary. Lutherans say that it’s totally Jesus but it’s also bread. You may say something different in an attempt to distance yourself from Protestants (?) but you obviously believe the same thing.
 
carol marie:
OK, so here’s the follow up. Spoke to my friend - read all the replies together and we agreed that, sorry to say you’re trying to have it both ways. Catholics & Lutheran believe the SAME THING about the Eucharist. Catholics SAY they believe it’s ONLY Jesus, on one hand, but then on the other hand you say that sweet nuns are trying to make hosts that contain less wheat for Celiac sufferers. Can’t have it both ways. If it’s ONLY Jesus and no longer bread that isn’t necessary. Lutherans say that it’s totally Jesus but it’s also bread. You may say something different in an attempt to distance yourself from Protestants (?) but you obviously believe the same thing.
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No they do not. Martin Luther himself stated the difference between the two. It is a major differance too. Martin Luther taught herisey and became a heritic in part due to this very subject.

One must have Faith to ‘see’ what cannot be seen. Blessed are they that believe but have not seen.

Jesus said it WAS His flesh. I do not argue with Him. Did you read Jn 6 and 1 Cor 10 & 11? It is impossible to be bread. If it is bread mixed with Jesus then why do Lutherans just dump Jesus in the trash when finished?

Reread the posts above. There are also other threads dealing with this subject with much more depth as well. Even the Lutheran church states its belief is different then that of the Catholic Church too.

You are free to believe either Scripture or Martin Luhters’ teaching. The choice is yours. Just remember, there IS a diffferance.

Anyway, God Loves us all no matter which side you believe in. Lutherans are good Christians too and we may just have to disagree on this topic?😉

Some links:
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/eucharis.htm
matt1618.freeyellow.com/eucharist.html

I will agree with you that the two sides seem similar at first. I also noticed how close they ‘seemed’ before I left the Lutheran church.
 
all these explanations were very good, except you forgot one very important detail. it has the EFFECT OF BREAD. it looks like, taste like, smells like, and if annalized in the lab will come back bread. which means if eaten will effect you like bread, but it’s not bread. it’s JESUS.that’s the mystery of it.
 
carol marie:
Catholics & Lutheran believe the SAME THING about the Eucharist.
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It is true that Catholics and Lutherans believe that Jesus Christ’s words, “This is my body”, are to be taken literally in the sense that Christ is really and truly present. However, they disagree over the manner of this presence. Catholics believe Jesus is present by transubstantiation; Lutherans believe Jesus is present by consubstantiation.

Also, Catholics believe that the Real Presence of Jesus is an abiding presence so that any consecrated bread and wine left over after the Communion rite is still the adorable Body and Blood of Jesus. As a consequence of this abiding presence, each Catholic Churches stores the some of adorable Body and Blood of Jesus in a special box in the church called a tabernacle, primarily so that Communion is available for the sick but also for Eucharist Adoration outside of Mass. A lit candle near the tabernacle usually indicates the Real Presence of Jesus in the tabernacle.

I could be wrong but, it is my understanding that, Lutherans believe that the Real Presence of Jesus in the consecrated bread and wine ceases after the Communion rite so that any leftover consecrated bread and wine returns to being just ordinary bread and wine.
You may say something different in an attempt to distance yourself from Protestants (?) but you obviously believe the same thing.
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From the 1100’s, the doctrine of transubstantiation was fully indicated as Catholic dogma. For instance, the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 said, “His body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine, the bread and wine having been changed in substance, by God’s power, into his body and blood.”

The first Protestants did not appear until some 300 years later.

The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on Consubstantiation might be of some help: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04322a.htm
 
carol marie:
Thank you for all of your wonderful replies. I can see that I’m going to have to just print this post for her - too much to read over the phone. Thanks especially to the Matrix answer - very creative, and yes she’s generation X and huge into the Matrix movies.

Trust me when I say I am NOT trying to make this difficult, I am just trying to understand so I can explain it when I’m asked by my Protestant friends who don’t get the big deal over the Eucharist. I’ve heard more than once - just be Lutheran, it’s the same thing without all the Mary stuff. (sorry - their words, not mine)

This is the deal though… bear06 - you said that w/ Catholics Host is completly God. Why then would Celiacs have a problem with it? In an earlier post someone said they would indeed have problems because it “appears” to be bread (but in substance it’s Jesus??) That would seem to mean that DESPITE it looking like bread it’s not - so where’s the problem w/ Celiacs? See, it seems like you’re saying, “It looks like bread but it’s not… it’s JESUS - no bread remains.” But Celiacs know that if they take it, it will make them sick (My very good friend’s daughter has celliac disease, very severe and she’ll only take a sip of the wine) Now I know someone gave an example of a Celiac that took the host without getting sick but it was said they had GREAT FAITH but most 8 year olds I know barely “get it” so isn’t it too much to ask them to have GREAT FAITH? And if they got sick would we say, “Oh you lack faith?” That sounds so extream.

So I still don’t get it. If it’s not bread at all anymore (Catholic view) them why does everyone say Celiacs can just drink the wine and avoid the host rather than saying, “Go ahead & take the host… it’s not wheat anymore anyways… it’s Jesus!” That’s NOT said. Instead they fight to have a rice host (some Priests provide this I am told) and also they suggest just wine.

So it does sound like you believe it’s still bread but also Jesus so how is that different from Lutherans??? :confused:
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Hi there!

You’ve probably heard the word “transubstantiation”. The bread undergoes a change (trans) in substance (substant), not a change in form, which would be “transformation”.

For example, when water freezes it transforms. It changes in form from a liquid to a solid, but in substance it stays the same; H2O. The bread undergoes something different. It is transsubstantiated, it changes in substance, from bread to the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, but its form stays the same; wheat, water, etc.

Since the form of the bread is the same someone who would become sick from eating bread would still become sick.

Hope that helps!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
In doctrine official Lutheranism is part of what is called orthodox Protestantism, since it agrees with the Catholic and the Greek Churches in accepting the authority of the Scriptures and of the three most ancient creeds (the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed).
  • consubstantiation (although the symbols do not use this term), i.e. the real, corporeal presence of Christ’s Body and Blood during the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, in, with, and under the substance of bread and wine, in a union which is not hypostatic, nor of mixture, nor of local inclusion, but entirely transcendent and mysterious;
  • the omnipresence of the Body of Christ, which is differently explained by the commentators of the Symbolical Book carol marie if you want to read more go to:www.ewtn.com THEOLOGY FOR BEGINNERS****F. J. Sheed **Chapter 18—Eucharist And Mass The Real Presence
**

i hope this help. bless all 🙂
 
Perhaps a clearer way of showing the differences between the Lutheran view and the Catholic view is to look at the teaching regarding the person receiving the Eucharist.

I’m not sure what Lutherans believe, but you should press your friend to define it clearly.

Here’s what I understand Catholics believe, from Trent and Aquinas, which teachings are based on the Church Fathers.

Since the Consecrated Host is changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, the recepient truly receives the Body and Blood of Christ, regardless of their faith. Now, if they receive the Eucharist with mortal sin unconfessed, or if they receive it w/o believing what it is, or otherwise unfaithful receiving, this is only “sacramental” receiving. There is no grace given, only judgement, but the importance to note is that they do receive the sacrament, the same sacrament as the most holy, pure Catholic in the pew in front of them, or across the globe, or where ever.

Again, I’m not sure what the Lutheran view is, maybe there’s not much contradictory there, but I’m willing to bet there is.
 
Also, you may consider the following on the Eucharist itself:

The Catholic church teaches that the body, blood, and divinity is in the Consecrated Bread. The body, blood, and divinity is in the Consecrated Wine as well. That’s how the communicants can receive the Eucharist under one kind, and it still be receiving the whole Eucharist. The 2 types of hosts show to our senses that Christ’s Blood was separated from His Body at the cruxifiction, and that at the Resurrection, He was made humanly alive again, hence the blood and body are no longer separated, they are together, which is demonstrated by each type of host containing the entire substance of Christ.

Again:
Consecrated Bread - Body and Blood
Consecrated Wine - Body and Blood

I’m not sure what Lutherans believe. But there’s an opportunity to showcase the contrasting views, if indeed the Lutherans believe differently.

Lutherans are sometimes so sneaky that they will try to go to the Church Fathers to demonstrate that they taught Consubstantiation. That’s a whole other river to swim though, and I hope you don’t have to go there.
 
Hi, just my two cents:

I’ll quote from the Canons of the Council of Trent, specifically called to address the heresies of Luther and his protests:

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: “If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 1).

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: “If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally and really, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 8).

I believe that the underlined words describe the Lutheran view. 👍

Btw, you had a very good point then: it’s not trivial; if it is, the Church needed not make such a big fuss over these heresies of Luther’s :rolleyes:
 
carol marie:
OK, so I had my Prot. friend on the phone today and I read her all the posts. She said it sounds like Lutherans & Catholics believe the EXACT same thing. I said, “No, they must not because Catholics make a pretty big deal about Lutherans changing the way it had been for 1600 years.” We re-read the posts and are more confused than ever. Could someone please explain the Catholic VS. Lutheran position IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS? She’s going to check back w/ me tomorrow to see what’s been said. thanks & God Bless, CM
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I have just returned from the Eucharistic Congress in Mexico. Heard a Cardinal speak on what happens at Communion. Jesus is REALLY there, body, soul and Divinity…He brings me and you to His Father out of sheer love for us. He said Yes to his Father…“Yes Father I shall Obey you”…Out of sheer love for us…At communion we have Jesus there…with His Mother and all of the Saints. At this time we offer ourselves with our Lord Jesus to God the Father.

Lutherans on the other hand cannot effect or cause this to happen as their Priests are not Ordained through the Catholic Church…in the
Order of Melchisadek…Martin Luther left the Church…and broke
away, therefore his followers no longer are in Communion with our
Church…
 
Let me clarify… my friend isn’t doubting that it’s NOT actually Jesus in the Eucharist. Nor is she suggesting that you accept that Lutherans have a valid communion. We are both merely saying that when you state:

Lutheran: Jesus & Bread
Catholic: Only Jesus - NO Bread remains

You don’t actually BELIEVE that… otherwise why would nuns need to make low-wheat hosts? We’re satying that you say one thing but actually believe something else. But we are not taking away from the fact that it IS JESUS in the Eucharist.
 
opps… we’re SAYING that you say one thing, but actually believe… (sorry typo)
 
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