Seven Heads and Ten Horns

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Nelka

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Revelation 12:3 Then a second sign appeared in the sky: there was a huge red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and each of the seven heads crowned with a coronet.

Revelation 13:1 Then I saw a beast emerge from the sea: it had seven heads and ten horns, with a coronet on each of its ten horns, and its heads were marked with blasphemous titles.

Revelation 17:3 He took me in spirit to a desert, and there I saw a woman riding a scarlet beast which had seven heads and ten horns and had blasphemous titles written all over it.

The red dragon.
A beast.
A scarlet beast.

They all have seven heads and ten horns, are they one and the same or is there a significance between them all having the same amount of heads and horns?

I believe that the dragon is Satan himself but he cannot be the beast as in Revelation 13:4 They prostrated themselves in front of the dragon because he had given the beast his authority.

In Revelation 17 there is an explanation about the seven heads being hills but what of the dragon’s seven heads?

Thanks.
 
I just watched them, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He’s blind like the rest of them. He describes that Nero is the beast but there was no eternal reign, nor Jesus to return???
 
God put the Book of Revelation at the end of the Bible for a reason.

The expectation that one can read the Book of Revelation by itself and come to an accurate understanding of the imagery and themes it presents without having first read and achieved a basic understanding of all that comes before it is not realistic.

Much of the imagery in Revelation comes from the Old Testament. The locusts come from the Exodus and especially from the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah. The descriptions of the throne and the four creatures and the “New Jerusalem” come from the book of Prophet Ezekiel, and has it’s basis way back in the Book of Exodus.

It’s not as easy as “The horns represent this” or “The hills represent that”, but once one has a good understanding of the Old Testament, understanding the general gist of Revelation, and even understanding many of its details at a basic level is not that difficult.

The best way to understand Revelation - horns and dragons and all - is to undertake a study of the Bible as a whole by getting involved with a good overview study such as "The Bible Timeline by Jeff Cavins/Great Adventure.

-Tim-
 
Like I said Tim, (If you were talking to me), is that the Bible is easy for me to understand. If not then ignore this.😃
 
feed_me said:
Like I said Tim, (If you were talking to me), is that the Bible is easy for me to understand. If not then ignore this.😃
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I wasn’t talking to you directly, just making a general statement.

Reading Revelation by itself and then asking what it is about is like reading the last chapter of the Lord of the Rings trilogy and then asking what it is about. You have to read and understand everything else.

Reading it by itself apart from an understanding of the rest of scripture is what got us things like rapture theology. 🤷

-Tim-
 
Nelka said:
Revelation 12:3 Then a second sign appeared in the sky: there was a huge red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and each of the seven heads crowned with a coronet.

Revelation 13:1 Then I saw a beast emerge from the sea: it had seven heads and ten horns, with a coronet on each of its ten horns, and its heads were marked with blasphemous titles.

Revelation 17:3 He took me in spirit to a desert, and there I saw a woman riding a scarlet beast which had seven heads and ten horns and had blasphemous titles written all over it.

The red dragon.
A beast.
A scarlet beast.

They all have seven heads and ten horns, are they one and the same or is there a significance between them all having the same amount of heads and horns?

I believe that the dragon is Satan himself but he cannot be the beast as in Revelation 13:4 They prostrated themselves in front of the dragon because he had given the beast his authority.

In Revelation 17 there is an explanation about the seven heads being hills but what of the dragon’s seven heads?

Thanks.
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michaeljournal.org/masonrybeast.htm <Proposes ID of the Beast like a leopard, from a Catholic source.

One Catholic source of interest, which doesn’t go setting dates for which “no man knows the day or hour, not even the Son of Man, but only the Father …” – but provides some
startling insights into the images and passages you mention, are the writings of the late Fr. Stefano Gobbi.

Fr. Gobbi claimed to have*** inner locutions from the Blessed Virgin Mary ***(addressed not to the world but to priests, particularly those in the Marian Movement of Priests’ prayer cenacles worldwide). :gopray2:

Writing down these “inner locutions” a sort of private revelation (from Mary) Gobbi published a book for priests of the movement (which has nonetheless found its way into lay peoples’ hands - a priest gave one to me in about 1989).

The link above was from a chapter in that book. The insight I liked best was that:
  • The dragon/beasts oppose the 10 Commandments (GOD’S 10 “horns” of communication) and try to turn them inside out < my phrasing. This makes sense in that Satan would oppose the things of God.
The seven heads, according to Fr. Gobbi’s writings, also stand for the 7 deadly sins, which are directly opposed to the 7 cardinal virtues the Church teaches of.

**Of COURSE, I thought! **

The “Blessed Mother” speaks of the** Red Dragon as atheistic Communism** which spread its errors and domain through its social communication (propaganda) and military force.

Whereas the “Beast like a leopard” is said to enter in everywhere by secrecy and subterfuge and is related to a blasphemous group of Masonic Lodges (headlined as “Freemasonry”) which oppose the Church’s efforts at salvation by proposing a myriad of idols and exaltation of man, according to the locutions.

Rather than speculation about “who is the antiChrist?” and “What is the day or hour?” another chapter emphasizes that the “mark of the beast” on the forehead and hands is simply our letting Satan begin to rule over our thoughts (forehead) and works (hands).

I found this so edifying that I tend to believe in Fr. Gobbi’s inner locutions on the basis of getting good fruit from a good tree. That is, it sounded JUST like what I’d expect Our Blessed Mother to say … along the lines of “Do whatever He tells you …” and in opposition to the first Eve, whose mind was tempted and whose hand reached and who lost paradise (at least for a while - I hope she’s with the Lord again now!).

***I do not know the status of the Church toward Fr. Gobbi or his ministry, nor Church rulings about whether his inner locutions of Mary’s messages have been approved, or are under investigation, or even whether his book had a Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur. So “caveat emptor” and discern the spirit of what you read.

So far I have found it fruitful and instructive, simple and direct, and even where “novel,”
still right in line with basic Catholic teaching as I know it.*
**
While there has been quite a cottage industry in interpreting the Book of Revelation, often with “it’s happening NOW” fervor that packs the pews or theatre seats :eek: – I must admit, Jesus says “stay awake” and “do not let that day catch you unawares,” and ONE day it WILL be the end of the world.

The end of MY world is more likely however; so Jesus’ words are more personal to me than general. :tsktsk: That is to say, if I am “hip to the end times” but give my mind and hand (thoughts and works) over to Satan - it will do me no good at all. :crying: < weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth … etc.
 
catholicdoors.com/isit/isit01.htm < Another view of Fr. Gobbi, “locutions” - this one critical.

**Not **to confuse anyone, but since I posted some things written by Father Gobbi, another site critiques him, a site called Catholic Doors.

I don’t really have a “dog in this fight” as I am in “seek and you shall find” mode; but some of the critiques seen well reasoned too.

One critique is that Fr. Gobbi (or his “inner locutions of the Blessed Virgin Mary” he’d written down) had predicted 1998 as a pivotal year for Freemasonry’s design against the Church as it was “666 X 3” < I paraphrase.

Since the critics say " … it didn’t happen," and that the “Blessed Virgin doesn’t lie …”
they seem confident in debunking Fr. Gobbi. :tsktsk:

My reading of the passage struck me as less*** literal*** and hence still possibly true - or that 1998 might have marked the beginning of nefarious anti-Church
episodes (as opposed to their conclusion … which if it had been stated thus might prove the critics true). Your thoughts anyone?

Here is one of mine: An awful lot of tabernacles containing the true presence of Our Lord have been moved from their “front and center” places in our Churches since 1998. Coincidence?

Children (like me) were once taught to genuflect reverently immediately upon entering the Lord’s house (in the direction of the tabernacle containing the True Presence). Now …? :hmmm:

That said, I present this other site - as Truth will stand up to any scrutiny and …

1 John 4:1 **Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits **to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, 3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.

The Church itself does such discernment … and often later approved things, like St. Bernadette’s testimony became approved. But not without withering probing that was hard for the saint to bear. Remember how ‘mean’ the Churchmen seemed in the movie “Song of Bernadette” ? Well, they were possibly just living out the above scripture and scrutinizing carefully Bernadette’s astounding (yet true as it turned out) claims, among which was the affirmation of the recently (then) defined Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Conclusion: This is not necessarily a fight between heretic and an ardent defender of the faith - nor conversely between a holy messenger and a hardened skeptic. Either is a possibility I suppose - as is “everyone is sincere, but there are misunderstandings”.

Phillipians 4:8 Finally, brothers,** whatever is true,** whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Then the God of peace will be with you. – St. Paul
 
My interpretation is that the beast represents the kingdom of the Antichrist. First, a kingdom with ten kings obtains power over the whole world (Daniel 7:24). Then the Antichrist becomes one of those ten kings. Next, he defeats three of the ten kings, and then gains control of the entire kingdom and the world. This leaves ten kingdoms, but only seven kings. And that is why the beast (the Antichrist’s kingdom) has ten horns (ten positions of kingship, one for each kingdom) but only seven heads (three are defeated, just as Daniel says).
 
Nelka said:
:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:
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Yes, hmmm. There have been many attempts and pronouncements about the end of the ‘Age’ over the course of 2000 years. I am strongly leaning that the Book of Revelations at the end of the Bible - the only book that comes with a blessing for reading it by the way -,will be understood during the period of time that it becomes relevant.

Some apologists have stated that the seven heads could mean spheres of influence. I was also thinking that the imagery used in Revelations is interpreted allegorically. But think on this a minute, since John saw all these events happening in the future, how would a someone interpret images of Helicopters, Jet Fights, Nuclear weapons, tanks? Couldn’t the description of locusts be similar to a description of attack helicopters. How could someone describe objects that are 2000 years or more in the future and still be relevant to people during John’s time period?

Blessings to all,
 
Ecoclimber said:
Yes, hmmm. There have been many attempts and pronouncements about the end of the ‘Age’ over the course of 2000 years. I am strongly leaning that the Book of Revelations at the end of the Bible - the only book that comes with a blessing for reading it by the way -,will be understood during the period of time that it becomes relevant.

Some apologists have stated that the seven heads could mean spheres of influence. I was also thinking that the imagery used in Revelations is interpreted allegorically. But think on this a minute, since John saw all these events happening in the future, how would a someone interpret images of Helicopters, Jet Fights, Nuclear weapons, tanks? Couldn’t the description of locusts be similar to a description of attack helicopters. How could someone describe objects that are 2000 years or more in the future and still be relevant to people during John’s time period?

Blessings to all,
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With all due respect and in a spirit of charity, the Book of Revelation is understandable today. It isn’t some mysterious enigma which will be only understood after the end of time. It is relevant today.

Anyone who has basic knowledge of the Bible and some knowledge of the works of the Old Testament prophets such as Ezekiel, Daniel and Jerimiah can get a general understanding of the Book of Revelation today and draw much from it. .

The armor plated locusts with hair like women are from Exodus 10 and Joel 1. The description of the “Heavenly Jerusalem” comes from Exodus 24, the description of the “Breastpiece of Judgment” in Exodus 28, and Ezekiel 40.

Consider the two passages, which are almost identical in content.

*In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was conquered, on that very day, the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me in the visions of God into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, on which was a structure like a city opposite me. (Ezekiel 40:1-2)

And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, (Revelation 21:10)*

Much of what John writes about the Heavenly Jerusalem is taken directly from the writings of the prophets Ezekiel and Daniel.

Revelation is not mysterious or hidden. It is a difficult book, yes, but it’s content is available for those who study the Old Testament scriptures, know the works of the prophets and understand how the prophecies of the Old Testament are fulfilled in Christ and also fulfilled in his Church. It is highly relevant for us today, and only really understandable in the context of Catholicism.

-Tim-
 
Not to sidetrack the original post here is some more info on Fr Gobbi:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/MMP.htm
From the beginning Fr. Gobbi has been under the care of a spiritual director, one who judged his locutions to be authentic and who determined which of the messages would be published. Contrary to some published reports, Fr. Gobbi has never been subjected to any other formal scrutiny. Two instances are sometimes attested to the contrary. The first concerns the changing of the name of the book from Our Lady Speaks to Her Beloved Priests, which was done so as not to imply the certain authenticity of the messages. This represented nothing more than prudent reserve, typical in such matters, and was not a formal action of any entity in the Church.
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The second instance is a letter from an official of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith asking Father Gobbi to state explicitly that the messages are merely his own meditation. Fr. Gobbi has said that in good conscience he could not deny what he believed to be true. Seeking clarification of his responsibilities, he sought counsel from a higher authority in the Holy See and was assured that this letter was merely a request by the monsignor who wrote it and not an act of the Congregation. Nonetheless, it is perpetuated by some as judgment of the Holy See condemning Fr. Gobbi. In reality, the Marian Movement of Priests continues to meet regularly in Rome and elsewhere with the permission and participation of bishops.
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The times & events we are experiencing certainly are interesting. We are to always be ready to do God’s will, in whatever circumstance we find ourselves.

A thought occurred to me; the Mayan end of the world date, Dec. 12, 2012, happens to come just the day *after *the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Her Immaculate Heart will triumph! Spread the word!

Mimi
 
Mimi said:
A thought occurred to me; the Mayan end of the world date, Dec. 12, 2012, happens to come just the day *after *the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Her Immaculate Heart will triumph! Spread the word!

Mimi
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Solar eclipse and lunar eclipse in the same month of November.

If the dragon is Satan and the beast is the antichrist would this make sense that the dragon gives his power to the beast?

And the woman is a city?

Hosea 9:1 No merrymaking, Israel, for you, no rejoicing like other peoples, for you have deserted your God to play the whore, you have loved the fee of prostitution on every threshing-floor.

Ezekiel 15:6-8 So, the Lord Yahweh says this: As the wood of the vine among the forest trees, which I have thrown on the fire for fuel, so shall I treat the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I shall set my face against them. They have escaped one fire, but fire will devour them yet. And you will know that I am Yahweh, when I set my face against them. I shall reduce the country to a desert, because of their infidelity- declares the Lord Yahweh.

Ezekiel 16:1 The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows, 2 'Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her loathsome practices!
 

666, THE ANTI-CHRIST:​

Of course, the name Nero adds up to ‘666’.
But there is more

[Dt 17:15-17] “He whom you set over you as king must be your kinsman…But he shall not have a great number of horses;
nor shall he make his people go aback again to Egypt to acquire them, against the Lords’ warning that you must never go
back that way again. Neither shall he have a great number of wives, lest his heart be estranged, nor shall he accumulate
a vast amount of silver and gold.”

So there are at least 3 major things a king must never do:
  1. great number of horses -------------war chariots/large army.
  2. great number of wives -------------worship false idols/gods
  3. accumulate vast amt. gold/silver----gold/silver–> greed;
King Solomon was a prototype of a great King who had gone bad of which the entirety of 1 Kgs Chps 10&11 detail very nicely:
[1Kgs Chps 10 &11]

GREAT # HORSES: LARGE ARMY
[1 Kgs 10:26] “Solomon collected chariots and drivers; he had one thousand four hundred chariots and twelve thousand drivers.”

GREAT # WIVES: WORSHIP FALSE IDOLS/GODS
[1 Kgs 11:1] “King Solomon loved many foreign women besides the daughter of Pharaoh, from nations which the Lord had forbidden
the Israelites to intermarry, “because” he said “they will turn your hearts to their gods”. But Solomon fell in love
with them. He had several hundred wives of princely rank and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart.”

ACCUMULATE VAST AMT. GOLD/SILVER: GREED
[1 Kgs 10:14] “The gold that Solomon had received each year weighed six hundred and sixty-six gold talents.” (666 and listed first within 1 Kings 10&11)

666 WITHIN REVELATION​

[Rev 13: 17-18]
“so that no one may buy or sell unless he has the mark , that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its
number is six hundred sixty-six.”

Look at the above quote, ‘this calls for wisdom’. ‘WISDOM’ is a reference to Solomon(Solomon was renowned for and prayed for wisdom) in [1Kgs Chps 10 &11] who
was a prototype for a king who went bad. So it would seem that the beast or Anti-Christ is typically a national or even a larger
world stage figure(through conquest) with large armies, vast amt. of gold/silver or greed, and who is against(anti) Christianity and/or worships
false gods. This certainly applies to Nero. Moreover, this figures within the 20th century with Hitler, Stalin , Pol-Pot, and Mao. Which are all anti-christs leading up
to the final anti-christ of the end times. So thus, the general and precise meaning of what John and Revelation are getting at.
What John wrote about in Revelations and 666 is not really about counting up letters in a name, that is rather an insignificant part.
 
RB2 said:
666, THE ANTI-CHRIST:
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The word Antichrist appears exactly four times in the Bible, all in John’s letters. The word Antichrist does not appear in the Book of Revelation.

*Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. (1 John 2:18)

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. (1 John 4:3)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 1:7)*

Several things are clear. Anyone who denies that Jesus the man is also God is an Antichrist, and many Antichrists were already in the world when John wrote his letters.

We can talk about Solomon and the number of the Beast if we want, and it all may be relevant, but John’s writing about the Antichrist is clear. There were many in the world already while John was still alive.

-Tim-
 
In ecclesiastical use the ‘beast’ and ‘anti-christ’ are frequently interchangeable,
as are the red dragon and anti-christ

Consult one of many Catholic Bible Dictionaries/Encyclopedias et al, if you are in doubt.

Thank you.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Something that I find strange is that people all pick Nero as being the antichrist whereas Diocletian persecuted more Christians than Nero and Nero died two years before the siege of Jerusalem.

:confused:
 
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