Seventh Day Adventist Sect Built On Racism!

[Max_Kolbe]

ellenwhite.org/critica.htm

I thought I would posts this article to begin to uncover the orgins of the SDA movement as there seems to be an influx of these folks coming here to dupe Catholics. I have quite a bit of knowledge about the sect and a heart to reach the SDA. A good friend of ours has been in and out of the sect for years and has been in counseling to try and break the cults “triggers” that keep pulling her back in. It is based on fear, hatred of the catholic church, end times paranoia and madness. The reason i bring up this article is to begin to pull the veil off the orgins of the sect so that catholics and SDA themselves know what they are dealing with. The “Ellen White Project” consists of ex-SDA theologians and pastors who have found freedom from the cult and wish to expose the orgins of the sect that have been swept under the rug. # sects sprang up about the time the Blessed Mother of God was appearing at Lourdes and calling people to conversion in her Son Jesus, prayer, Penance and sacrificial living. The sects were Mormonsim, SDA and Jehovah’s Witness (which emerged from SDA). These 3 sects have been a thorn in the side of the true church ever since then . the similarities are staggering! Anyhow, read the article and I’ll come back later. I also have a great sabbath study at the bottom of this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=50648

P.S-To any SDA who are are trying to love Jesus the best you can with a*** pure heart*** God bless you! I do not mean to hurt you personally, that’s not my intention. I am a seeker of truth and my seeking brought me to the Roman catholic church after years of searching. My advice to you: never disobey your conscience. If you come to a point in your Journey where you can no longer justify what you believed at one time, to continue to do so is mortal sin. God winks at ignorance and purety of heart, open rebellion and searing your conscience will get you in trouble.

 

[VMacKenzie]

HI Max, just wanted to say hello and to make a couple quick comments regarding your post, from an SDA’s point of view

I’ll give this a try. . . I already tried posting once and it went POOF! when I hit the reply button. Let’s see how this goes.

It is unfortunate many in my church have taken Mrs. White and used her writings to beat Catholics and others over the head. She herself warned against doing that, and it is not what Christ would have us to do. We believe in following the example of Christ and of sorts ask ourselves “What would Jesus do?”

Growing up I have been taught many of her writings and believe her visions and inspiration came from God, however I also believe since she was human she was subject to err as any human, and the final answer and measuring rod by what we are to believe comes from the Bible. First and foremost we are to follow Christ and His teachings, not those of Ellen White, Joseph Smith, Charles T. Russell, the Pope, or any human since “all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.”

A couple of technicalities. . . Jehovah’s Witness have no affiliation or origination with SDAs, both of these faiths and Mormons originated independently of each other (as far as I know). Also the SDA church doesn’t fit the definition for sect, however it can be viewed as a cult in the eyes of some, although we are a hard fit by that definition as well.

Anyway I look forward to some open dialogue here and hope it can be constructive and informative instead of critical and condascending. I think there are many things Catholics and SDAs share, especially since we believe in the same God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Your concern for our members is appreciated. . . we care about and pray for our Catholic brothers too, even though sadly it may not seem so sometimes.

Vaughn

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

VMacKenzie:

Anyway I look forward to some open dialogue here and hope it can be constructive and informative instead of critical and condascending. I think there are many things Catholics and SDAs share, especially since we believe in the same God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Your concern for our members is appreciated. . . we care about and pray for our Catholic brothers too, even though sadly it may not seem so sometimes.

Vaughn

it says on this site that the catholic church regognizes SDA as having a valid christian baptism and says that we do share many doctrinal beliefs with them.

 

[Contarini]

The word “cult” is overused. Of course SDA’s are heretical by Catholic standards–even more so than other Protestants. But they believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation. They shouldn’t be classed with JW’s or Mormons. Ellen White had some kooky ideas, for sure. But lots of people in the 19th century were racists. I don’t think that’s enough to discredit the SDA’s by itself, as long as they don’t still claim that these horrible ideas are true or divinely inspired.

I’m always baffled as to why Catholics treat other religious groups the way fundamentalists treat Catholics. It’s exactly the same lingo: “I have a heart to reach SDAs,” and the same methodology: instead of tackling the major issues, find somethig discreditable in the groups history and pummel them with it. Doesn’t the Golden Rule preclude this?

Edwin

 

[Max_Kolbe]

VMacKenzie:

HI Max, just wanted to say hello and to make a couple quick comments regarding your post, from an SDA’s point of view

I’ll give this a try. . . I already tried posting once and it went POOF! when I hit the reply button. Let’s see how this goes.

It is unfortunate many in my church have taken Mrs. White and used her writings to beat Catholics and others over the head. She herself warned against doing that, and it is not what Christ would have us to do. We believe in following the example of Christ and of sorts ask ourselves “What would Jesus do?”

Growing up I have been taught many of her writings and believe her visions and inspiration came from God, however I also believe since she was human she was subject to err as any human, and the final answer and measuring rod by what we are to believe comes from the Bible. First and foremost we are to follow Christ and His teachings, not those of Ellen White, Joseph Smith, Charles T. Russell, the Pope, or any human since “all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.”

A couple of technicalities. . . Jehovah’s Witness have no affiliation or origination with SDAs, both of these faiths and Mormons originated independently of each other (as far as I know). Also the SDA church doesn’t fit the definition for sect, however it can be viewed as a cult in the eyes of some, although we are a hard fit by that definition as well.

Anyway I look forward to some open dialogue here and hope it can be constructive and informative instead of critical and condascending. I think there are many things Catholics and SDAs share, especially since we believe in the same God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Your concern for our members is appreciated. . . we care about and pray for our Catholic brothers too, even though sadly it may not seem so sometimes.

Vaughn

Howdy friend and thanks for the reply. From everything I have heard over the years from credible sources, Russell was a student of Ellen White for quite some time before leaving and heading up the Witnesses. One similar teaching that comes to mind would be that Jesus is Michael the archangel which is a view held by the SDA and the witnesses as well as there concept of hell and the resurrection (state of the dead). I will dig around for some more info on that though. I appreciate your willingness to dialouge and be kind about it. I feel the SDA is a cult for several reasons. I have seen the affects up close and personal for lack of a better term. My wife and I have a good friend who is just a blessed woman and we love her to death. We have known each other for close to ten years and shared many spiritual experiences. Yet I must say when my wife and I converted to the Catholic church we experienced a side of her that was altogether different. I did not realize the depth of fear, paranioa and end times madness that was going on inside (fully) until we became Catholic. She is now in deep counseling and trying to work through this. She goes in and out of the church yet there are triggers that seem to always pull her back. I use to be a bit more tolerant of SDA but now as a Catholic I am taking a second look. Don’t get me wrong, sincere SDA’s can know Jesus and be saved, but the depth of mind control that ex-members talk about is frightening. One gal who left the church experienced terrible nightmares for years that Catholics would one day kill her because she did not adhere to a Sunday law. I also feel that the orgins of the SDA are swept under the rug. we can talk more about that later. If you are willing to look at some of these things maturely and honestly that’s cool. In my conversion process from the Protestant church to Roman Catholic I pulled everything out from the past from the most blessed and beautiful things to the most ugly and hideous things so that down the road if I did convert there would be no suprises. I feel that every SDA, Mormon, Witness, Protestant should always do the same. But we’ll talk more later. Peace in Christ!

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Rand Al'Thor:

it says on this site that the catholic church regognizes SDA as having a valid christian baptism and says that we do share many doctrinal beliefs with them.

We do share some similar beliefs, but the differences are huge as well such as:

The souls of the dead are asleep until the resurrection or in “limbo” and that the soul is not immortal -

Jesus and Michael the archangel are the same -

Hell is not eternal that one suffers for a short time and than is completely wiped out of existance -

Saturday sabbath and Sunday is pagan -

The Catholic church is the whore of babylon and it’s members take the mark of the beast by worshipping on Sunday -

I could go on and on but I will stop there. I think it’s also important to ask the question “what makes a cult?” I think it has to do with fear and member control mainly. Many folks in various cults and sects can know Jesus and have a valid baptism, that’s not so much the issue.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Contarini:

The word “cult” is overused. Of course SDA’s are heretical by Catholic standards–even more so than other Protestants. But they believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation. They shouldn’t be classed with JW’s or Mormons. Ellen White had some kooky ideas, for sure. But lots of people in the 19th century were racists. I don’t think that’s enough to discredit the SDA’s by itself, as long as they don’t still claim that these horrible ideas are true or divinely inspired.

I’m always baffled as to why Catholics treat other religious groups the way fundamentalists treat Catholics. It’s exactly the same lingo: “I have a heart to reach SDAs,” and the same methodology: instead of tackling the major issues, find somethig discreditable in the groups history and pummel them with it. Doesn’t the Golden Rule preclude this?

Edwin

I think it is real important to look HONESTLY at orgins and not try to pretend it was not there. In my conversion process to the Roman catholic church I carefully examined the most hideous things I could find. If I got through those things and was still intellectually convinced than I would go on. Now…the orgins of my church are always being attacked as if the SDA’s were some pure and spottless thing founded on godliness and purity much like folks think about the reformation. They do not want to believe that protetsants slaughtered and burned catholics as well as each other as “new” protestant sects emerged. They want to think that only catholics did those things. If SDA’s want to continually attack the orgins of my church than it’s fair game don’t ya think? If we are going to lay it all out on the table let’s do it completely. I think for SDA’s it’s important to hear what ex-pastors and theologians have to say and what they have honestly found. Like I have said, I have SDA’s close to my heart, friends who I love. I have been around it for quite some time so I do not use the word “cult” lightly. I have seen the affects. And yes, I want to look at the major issues as well, but I think in studying our orgins a whole bunch of light can be shed on what is true and what is false, just ask the fathers of the church.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bible.ca/jw-history.htm

Here is a good article on Russell and his emergence from what was know then as the “Millerites” which later became the SDA’s. It’s kind of long, but it’s well written and pretty interesting.

 

[jjwilkman]

Max Kolbe:

We do share some similar beliefs, but the differences are huge as well such as:

The souls of the dead are asleep until the resurrection or in “limbo” and that the soul is not immortal -

Jesus and Michael the archangel are the same -

Hell is not eternal that one suffers for a short time and than is completely wiped out of existance -

Saturday sabbath and Sunday is pagan -

The Catholic church is the whore of babylon and it’s members take the mark of the beast by worshipping on Sunday -

I could go on and on but I will stop there. I think it’s also important to ask the question “what makes a cult?” I think it has to do with fear and member control mainly. Many folks in various cults and sects can know Jesus and have a valid baptism, that’s not so much the issue.

i don’t want to hurt your feelings, but this is

1. utterly ridiculous
2. doesn;t belong on this site
   3.Jesus Christ IS God!! . period!!

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Max Kolbe:

We do share some similar beliefs, but the differences are huge as well such as:

The souls of the dead are asleep until the resurrection or in “limbo” and that the soul is not immortal -

Jesus and Michael the archangel are the same -

Hell is not eternal that one suffers for a short time and than is completely wiped out of existance -

Saturday sabbath and Sunday is pagan -

The Catholic church is the whore of babylon and it’s members take the mark of the beast by worshipping on Sunday -

I could go on and on but I will stop there. I think it’s also important to ask the question “what makes a cult?” I think it has to do with fear and member control mainly. Many folks in various cults and sects can know Jesus and have a valid baptism, that’s not so much the issue.

oh, i know. i was just trying to make the point that while they are attacking us, we’re saying they have a valid baptism and some correct beliefs rather than attacking them back on church bilboards.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

jjwilkman:

i don’t want to hurt your feelings, but this is

1. utterly ridiculous
2. doesn;t belong on this site
   3.Jesus Christ IS God!! . period!!

ellen white wrote about that stuff…

 

[VMacKenzie]

Max, Russell being a stundent under EG White is something I didn’t realize so thanks for the history tidbit. I learned something new today! I’ll be the first to admit many of you here have probably read more of Mrs. White’s writings on here than I have.

Yes growing up there were may things taught in our schools & churches regarding Catholicism and end times/Revelation, and admittedly many have become too obsessed with it and created a strong negative mindset toward Catholics. It was this way as recently as the ‘70s and it has bothered me, but the good news is in recent decades it seems many have realized this is not healthy and instead present what we believe and the reasoning for it without a negative attitude toward those of the Catholic faith. I am sorry to hear your friend has had such a tough time. I haven’t ever met anyone with that level of “trauma” and I know a few in my church have Catholic friends (as do I) and everyone gets along just fine. But I do know there are those who feel the Catholic institution should be treated with caution/fear. While there are some things I don’t agree with regarding my faith I do agree with the majority of it and believe I’m in the right faith (at least for me).

I sometimes wonder how often people convert from Protestantism to Catholicism. I know personally 4 people who came from the Catholic church who basically felt there was too much of an authoritarian attitude and the church was too heavy into ‘tradition,’ and if you questioned any of the church’s teachings it was frowned upon. I don’t know if it’s like that in the Catholic church or not though. One couple left before they heard of SDA and when they found one of our churches a few months later they felt it best fit what they believed.

Yes while many things we commonly believe in, there are some major differences as well that I know we could argue/discuss endlessly, that’s for sure. But I hope to gain some insight by surfing the boards here and I think many of you truly love the Lord and live according to what you believe is His will for your life. I can tell you most in the SDA church believe (and it is taught) that there won’t be a few Catholics in Heaven, but many many who have always been Catholics will be saved.

On the discrimination subject we are certainly accepting of all, and I think our church and Mrs. White did well with this in the early days. That would be an interesting subject to research, but today our church has a presence in virtually every country on the globe.

Vaughn

 

[Max_Kolbe]

VMacKenzie:

Yes while many things we commonly believe in, there are some major differences as well that I know we could argue/discuss endlessly, that’s for sure. But I hope to gain some insight by surfing the boards here and I think many of you truly love the Lord and live according to what you believe is His will for your life. I can tell you most in the SDA church believe (and it is taught) that there won’t be a few Catholics in Heaven, but many many who have always been Catholics will be saved.

On the discrimination subject we are certainly accepting of all, and I think our church and Mrs. White did well with this in the early days. That would be an interesting subject to research, but today our church has a presence in virtually every country on the globe.

Vaughn

Vaughn,

I appreciate your humilty and I think you are a level headed person who thinks through his thoughts. I would like to continue to dialouge with you about certain issues. I do not want you to take what I say personally although I know it’s tough when you are part of a church you love. I am a blunt person and I say what I feel honestly and without reserve, it saves us both time. But I will always try to listen to you and I hope you would do the same. I have to say SDA’s are infamous for starting things (discussions) and not finishing them or…when frustrated resort to all types of wicked stories and fear mongering ideas to distract from the topic at hand. I get really frustrated at times when folks attack me and my faith and in the end cannot defend what they believe with any cohesiveness or clarity. I hope that you are different and judging from your responses you are. You took the Russell thing like a true Christian and I applaud you for that.

You mentioned :

On the discrimination subject we are certainly accepting of all, and I think our church and Mrs. White did well with this in the early days. That would be an interesting subject to research, but today our church has a presence in virtually every country on the globe.

---

I may ask you to clarify this thought a bit more. I think I know what you are saying and if I correctly understand I have to say no, not true simply for the fact that the early Adventist church was extremely discriminating and extremely outspoken about who had the “mark of the beast”. There attacks were at that time much more outspoken against Sunday worshipping Protestant churches as well. So to say the SDA’s are accepting of all is quite a stretch and from my own experience, I have found the opposite. I would say “oddly polite” until they gather in sabbath school classes and begin to talk about what they really think. I have had the pleasure of attending a few of these “friendly gatherings” and they were not very pleasent. Now…of cousre there may be individuals who are different like yourself who truely see beyond the fear mongering and want to genuinely love people as Christ did, but again from my experience I have found the opposite.

If there are any ex-SDA reading I would be interested to hear your experiences as well. Thanks Vaughn, we’ll talk soon.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Rand Al'Thor:

oh, i know. i was just trying to make the point that while they are attacking us, we’re saying they have a valid baptism and some correct beliefs rather than attacking them back on church bilboards.

I think I know where you are coming from and I agree. Our catholic faith is being assaulted at every level. These groups like termites continue to eat away at the foundations of the church day and night. No someone might jump all over me and say I am being unloving by calling them “termites”, but don’t waste your time! I LOVE people and loving others it what life is about. Loving them as Jesus loved them. Yes, showing compassion and mercy, offering forgiveness, and speaking truthfully without guile. That’s what I do. The Catholic church was like a pearl of great price to me when it finally came into the sunlight. Years of searching, reading, threshing truth from error, following my conscience on issues of doctrine and morality, and painfully letting go of a loving Protestant community for something real and lasting. I love this church and would give my life for it because I kwno 100% that it is the True church of Jesus Christ and the Holy Apostles. I am not going to sit back and watch folks being taken away into sects and cults with theology that is only fit for the fire.

                         Catch my passion!

The church in Europe is dying, the church in America…well? We are in trouble because a handful of people are trying to defend our beautiful teaching tradition and it’s nealy impossible to feed several billion people! I thank God for the folks on this forum who are honest and know their stuff. To answer your question, yes we are too tolerant, never wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings. I do not think that is being un-loving. I would like to see more folks stand up defend the church and get behind our wonderful shepard who God has appointed to lead the church. I am not for taking pop shots at a persons charactor and ridicule is out of the question, but I will go for the juggler of false teachings and I am ok with that.

 

[VMacKenzie]

Max, don’t worry, I’m not taking any of your comments personally and I can handle it, and I don’t plan to lauch missles and run either

The comments I made about discrimination had to do with ethnic, not religious descrimination, so while I can say the early church was proably open and accepting to all ethnic groups, it’s not as easy to say the same about those of other faiths, particularly Catholics.

I’m not sure if you realize this or not but much of the negativity directed toward Catholicism from SDAs has always been intended for the leadership of the Catholic church and the Pope, not the members, since it is believed the teachings are “in error.” And I realize the same is thought of my church and other Protestant faiths from your point of view, that our teachings are in error.

Vaughn

 

[Max_Kolbe]

VMacKenzie:

Max, don’t worry, I’m not taking any of your comments personally and I can handle it, and I don’t plan to lauch missles and run either

The comments I made about discrimination had to do with ethnic, not religious descrimination, so while I can say the early church was proably open and accepting to all ethnic groups, it’s not as easy to say the same about those of other faiths, particularly Catholics.

I’m not sure if you realize this or not but much of the negativity directed toward Catholicism from SDAs has always been intended for the leadership of the Catholic church and the Pope, not the members, since it is believed the teachings are “in error.” And I realize the same is thought of my church and other Protestant faiths from your point of view, that our teachings are in error.

Vaughn

Vaughn I hear what you are saying BUT…I would not say that the first Adventists were open to all enthnic groups because that would contradict Whit’s teaching on “Amalgamation” or the mixing of other races which she believed to be “the beasts of the field”. She openly this proclaimed this teaching in the beginning before it was swept under the rug. Mormons held similar beliefs until I believe the 70’s. I point this out only to be fair to truth. I know the church does not teach this now or it could not survive. I think would have been hard to be of ethnic orgin and place yourself under those teachings agree? Vaughn I have to say again don’t take these things personally. I am glad you had the guts to come to a Catholic forum and talk about what you believe. You have something though that many of your SDA peers have and that is humility. I applaud you for that. It’s that humility that will allow us to have a healthy dialouge and not lower ourselves to personal attacks. Praise God for you friend!

I want to ask you a question and I ask this as a former “Sabbatartian”. Do you feel that the negativity directed toward the Catholic church is directly related to what they percieve to be a “change in the Sabbath?” Remember, it was White’s vision that led the Adventists to begin to follow the sabbath of the Old Covenant and proclaim Sunday worship (Lord’s Day) as the “mark of the beast”. If I remember correctly, she had a vision of the Sabbath commandment “lighting up” as she read the scriptures and heard an angel (or something like that) proclaim the rest of it.
So White and her “Visions” are crucial to the Adventist faith, am I correct in saying that? I also want to know if you feel that the whole Adventist belief system hinges on the Sabbath? Let me know when you get a chance.
In Christ!

 

[adventistnomore]

VMacKenzie:

…
I’m not sure if you realize this or not but much of the negativity directed toward Catholicism from SDAs has always been intended for the leadership of the Catholic church and the Pope, not the members, since it is believed the teachings are “in error.” And I realize the same is thought of my church and other Protestant faiths from your point of view, that our teachings are in error.

Vaughn

Vaughn,

Hi this is Hugo.

I know Adventists claim that they love the people, though they cannot approve of the institution and its leaders. However, as I leave Adventism and embrace the Catholic faith I challenge you… Adventists make it seem as if the leadership of the Catholic Church know that their Church is in “error” and that they prey upon its members. Would you abandon all such ideas? The leaders of the Catholic faith are Catholics because they believe and are convicted of the truth of the Catholic Church… they were born Catholics, will die Catholics, and earnestly believe in the Catholic faith with all their hearts becuas e they see it in Scripture and Tradition. If they are decieved as you claim, than they are… but please, abandon all these indefensible hints that the pope knowingly keeps His flock in error. In short… love ALL the people within the Church.

Finally, love and pity the Church if you think it is wrong. Remember what Mark Finley said in his most recent satellite series… Catholic history and “apostasy” is not “THEIR history”… it is OUR shared history and apostasy as all Christians (which supposedly Protestants realized and thus broke communion with those who continued to keep the apostate faith). Adventists, of they look upon the Catholic faith as false, should have tenderest pity for the institution… after all, Christ founded one church… it would be frightful if the visible institution Christ founded fell into apostasy. And yet, Adventists claim as much and yet seem to enjoy mocking and reviling the Catholic Church.

Love the people, and show love to the Church despite your convictions. We are in visible succession witht he apostles, and though you disagree with our convictions as a Church, we are still that one visible instituion Christ founded 2,000 years ago.

 

[SDA2RC]

Max,
With all due respect, I was SDA for nearly 30 years… I grew up in the SDA Church, my wife did also. She went to SDA schools and attended Southern University. (An SDA school.) I can speak from my experience as a SDA, that in all my years in the SDA Church, I saw no Church condoned racism. I think your claim that the SDA Church is “Built on racism” may not be intellectually and historically honest. Furthermore, Anti-SDA sites, have little credibility… they tend to be… well a bit biased and sometimes stretch the truth. Much like anti-Catholic sites.

In addition, while I VERY much disagree with many if not most of the tenets of Adventism, the doctrines as taught by the SDA General Conference are not cultic, nor do they justify the label cult. That being said… I do believe that the SDA Church is standing on just this side of a fine line between Christian and Cult, and that many SDA’s practice a cultish form of Adventism (for example, Jan Marcussen), but that there are also many that practice a more mainstream Christian form of Adventism.

Finally, the real issue that Catholics need to deal with in Adventism and most other religions is the issue of Authority. Do SDA’s or others have the authority to ordain and interpret, and teach the Word of God in opposition to the Authority setup by Christ Himself?

In Christ,
Brandon

 

[Max_Kolbe]

adventistnomore:

Vaughn,

Hi this is Hugo.

I know Adventists claim that they love the people, though they cannot approve of the institution and its leaders. However, as I leave Adventism and embrace the Catholic faith I challenge you… Adventists make it seem as if the leadership of the Catholic Church know that their Church is in “error” and that they prey upon its members. Would you abandon all such ideas? The leaders of the Catholic faith are Catholics because they believe and are convicted of the truth of the Catholic Church… they were born Catholics, will die Catholics, and earnestly believe in the Catholic faith with all their hearts becuas e they see it in Scripture and Tradition. If they are decieved as you claim, than they are… but please, abandon all these indefensible hints that the pope knowingly keeps His flock in error. In short… love ALL the people within the Church.

Finally, love and pity the Church if you think it is wrong. Remember what Mark Finley said in his most recent satellite series… Catholic history and “apostasy” is not “THEIR history”… it is OUR shared history and apostasy as all Christians (which supposedly Protestants realized and thus broke communion with those who continued to keep the apostate faith). Adventists, of they look upon the Catholic faith as false, should have tenderest pity for the institution… after all, Christ founded one church… it would be frightful if the visible institution Christ founded fell into apostasy. And yet, Adventists claim as much and yet seem to enjoy mocking and reviling the Catholic Church.

Love the people, and show love to the Church despite your convictions. We are in visible succession witht he apostles, and though you disagree with our convictions as a Church, we are still that one visible instituion Christ founded 2,000 years ago.

Brilliant Hugo! I love what you wrote here. The sincerety and truth in what you say is very powerful and echos the deepest cry of my heart. Vaughn listen carefully to what has been posted, I am trusting your sincerety and that you really came here to learn not just get a notch in your Bible belt for beating up on Catholics. If you are a sincere lover of truth and want to do all in good conscience, yes abandon the idea that the pope “knows he is teaching error”. You can believe the church teaches error of course, but understand we have brillliant gifted shepards that deeply love the church.

One of the things I found in my conversion process is that these were brilliant, BRILLIANT men absolutely gifted in language, theology, philosophy, poetry and the arts. Our last pope “John Paul II” spoke 17 fluid languges and had so many degrees you could not count them all. They know the scriptures in many languages, their grasp of church history…breathtaking! I was floored by what I found and what I had formerly believed (similar to you) I believe you would be shocked in you were to actually take the time to read an encyclical or apostolic letter from the vatican website : www.vatican.va

I was given a challange many years ago to take the time to read the writings of Ellen “Gould” White and I went at it with an open mind. What I found in those writings contradicted reason and sense (her visions) and the rest was simple moral exortations on par with what you would hear in any Sunday school class. Her visions were off the wall and just plain “goofy” on may occasions. But, my point I studied what she had to say and gave a fair assessment. I would ask you to do the same. Get away from some of the SDA thelogians and historians for awhile and read what the church actually has to say. Get a proper understanding of church history and if I may suggest find some good history books from “non-religious” folks who just love to record history as it really happened. Hugo said:

Love the people, and show love to the Church despite your convictions. We are in visible succession witht he apostles, and though you disagree with our convictions as a Church, we are still that one visible instituion Christ founded 2,000 years ago

Yea and amen! Love is what will make you shine brother, you will see what SDA’s are really made of if you move in this capacity. But it would be my parayer that you would start a fire burning in the hearts of these folks Vaughn! Talk to ya soon friend.

 

[SDA2RC]

Max Kolbe:

I also want to know if you feel that the whole Adventist belief system hinges on the Sabbath? Let me know when you get a chance.
In Christ!

Actually, in my opinion, (which often is worthless… LOL) the SDA Church hinges on the Vatican being the anti-Christ. Here is why…

If the Pope does not become the AntiChrist then all of the following are true:

1. SDA’s misinterpreted the 1260 days of Daniel and Revelation
2. The Sabbath/Sunday issue is not the Mark of the Beast
3. IF the Sabbath/Sunday issue is not the mark of the beast, then SDA’s have mis-understood the role of the Mosaic Law in the NT Church.
4. If the SDA’s have misunderstood the role of the Mosaic law in the NT Church, they have incorrectly identified the Church of Christ.
5. IF SDA’s have incorrectly identified the Church of Christ, then they have been instrumental in leading people away from the Church of Christ.
6. IF they have done this… well… then Ellen and the others were not sharing true revelation about many things, including the investigative Judgement
7. If this is the case… then we can continue down the line of unique SDA Doctrines and they fall like domino’s

Basically… the SDA Church could cease to exist and the RCC would not be affected, because it is founded on Christ through Peter. However, if the RCC ceased to exist, the entire belief structure of the SDA Church would fail. This was quite a realization for me as an Adventist.

In Christ!
Brandon