Seventh-day Adventist's Sabbath and Catholic's Sunday

[Patrick_Murebil]

I would probably have to agree with you on that. It is VERY programmed into ALL SDA’s… I even knew one that would answer the phone “Happy Sabbath” on Saturday only.

That said, my husband (Catholic) was always REALLY bothered by this. He would go on and on about “why do they need to tell me Happy Sabbath sooooo many times!!!”… then he would go on about why instead they didn’t say something like “Welcome to the house of the Lord.” He would tell me that it almost seemed like they “worshipped” the Sabbath. Maybe?? Maybe not???
Whenever an SDA tries to convert someone they always emphasize “the IMPORTANCE of the Sabbath.” So in a way, maybe… they do kind of worship the day. Although when you are SDA it doesn’t feel that way at all…

Hi dreamfleur,

I would like to share some thoughts regarding this exchange between you and Pythons regarding “worshipping the sabbath” as opposed to “worship on the sabbath”.

A while back during a discussion I was having with a SDA on the SD2RC Forum, the SDA gentleman wrote a beautiful post about the sabbath and the Law. As I read his post, the distinction between Adventist and Catholic beliefs metaphorically lept off the page and slapped me upside the head.

To show to others, following that thread, the distinction I saw, I copied the Adventist gentleman’s post word for word expept for two words. Everywhere the Adventist gentleman wrote “sabbath” and “law”, I replaced these two words with one word (The Word)…“JESUS”.

I would suggest to everone reading this (even to SDAs), that the next time you read anything written by a SDA, or have a discussion with a SDA, that you substitue “Jesus” for the “sabbath” and/or “law”. This is the clearest distinction I have ever been able to see between Adventist and Catholic beliefs and who worships what.

Where SDAs look at the “law” as the revelation of God’s charater to mankind, and the “sabbath” as the best way of having relationship with God; Catholics look at “Jesus” as the best revelation of God’s character to mankind, and “Jesus” as the best way of having relationship with God…particularly in communion with Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist. There is no more intimate nor personal relationship one can have with Jesus than receiving Jesus fully and completely in the Holy Eucharist. The Catholic teaching and belief is the good news of the Gospel and fully and completely supported by the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

When you make that substituion of the words “sabbath” and the “law” with “Jesus”, you will find in those SDA writings, some of the most beautiful Catholic truths. Try it sometime.

Also dreamfleur, I see that you are in R.C.I.A. as well as Darryl B above. I would just like to say that you and Darryl B are in my prayers this week as you near entering full communion with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I have a request for any and all Catholics who are reading this, that you take some time between now and Easter to pray a Rosary for dreamfleur and Darryl B as they are about to enter a new phase on their journey with Jesus. In fact pray a Rosary for all who are entering full communion with God’s Holy Church at this Easter Vigil.

May God, in the Glory of the Risen Christ, this Easter bless all who post on and all those who read this thread!!! Happy Easter to everyone as we reflect and participate in the Passion, Death, and Ressurection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ this Holy Week!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[ChantelMarie]

Yes that’s what I had posted earlier. My girlfriend is SDA, and when I brought up to her, I told her Jesus said the biggest commandment is Love your God with all your heart, all your soul. Then he says the second most important commandment is to love thy neighbor as you do yourself. I told her, at no moment did Jesus say anything about the Sabbath.
Even when he tells the young rich man, he names the commandments and never says anything about keeping the Sabbath.

I grew up SDA. I left the faith when I was 18 because I couldn’t believe that a loving God would teach people to be so fearful and judgmental of others. I was taught to fear and avoid anyone who was not SDA, especially if they were Catholic.

10 years later, I stumbled into a Catholic Church and was blown away by the overwhelming message of love and acceptance. I was confirmed a week ago at Easter Vigil, and I am so in love with my parish, my faith, and most of all with Jesus Christ, whom I get to encounter daily in the Eucharist.

My entire childhood, I was taught that other people were condemned to hell simply for the fact that they didn’t worship on Saturday. What?!

You are so right. Jesus teaches us to love him and others, not to judge people and condemn them to hell.

I feel the presence of Christ in Catholic churches. I don’t feel anything in SDA Churches but judgement. (“You are wearing jewelry?! That is a one way ticket to hell.”)

 

[dreamfleur]

I grew up SDA. I left the faith when I was 18 because I couldn’t believe that a loving God would teach people to be so fearful and judgmental of others. I was taught to fear and avoid anyone who was not SDA, especially if they were Catholic.

10 years later, I stumbled into a Catholic Church and was blown away by the overwhelming message of love and acceptance. I was confirmed a week ago at Easter Vigil, and I am so in love with my parish, my faith, and most of all with Jesus Christ, whom I get to encounter daily in the Eucharist.

My entire childhood, I was taught that other people were condemned to hell simply for the fact that they didn’t worship on Saturday. What?!

You are so right. Jesus teaches us to love him and others, not to judge people and condemn them to hell.

I feel the presence of Christ in Catholic churches. I don’t feel anything in SDA Churches but judgement. (“You are wearing jewelry?! That is a one way ticket to hell.”)

Firstly, Congratulations !!!

I read what you wrote and it all resonated with what I saw growing up too. I also remember the “dancing” prohibition, the movies, being vegetarian… so sad that those are the things that determine your salvation as an SDA.

If they could only see what is really inside the RCC… I think they could be blown away.

 

[Pythons]

Patrick Murebil,

WOW! that has to be the most salient thing I think I’ve ever read about how to approach the Seventh day Adventists from a Catholic perspective. I will be using that a lot!

Most of the SDA prohibitions appear to be mechanisms Church leadership has adopted to keep SDA’s from associating with other Christians…
…I mean it’s difficult to grow in fellowship if you CAN’T EAT with someone.
…SDA’s take their diet past the Kosher level.

Also, if a person looks different enough by the way they look that person will tend to keep away from people they don’t look like…
…This is another way SDA’s are sort of programmed to shun outside fellowship.
…They probably get tired of people asking them why they do or don’t do such and such.

In the end I think the Christian teaching is how you act and how you treat others…
…I’m thinking this will play heavy in the end.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick Murebil,

WOW! that has to be the most salient thing I think I’ve ever read about how to approach the Seventh day Adventists from a Catholic perspective. I will be using that a lot!

Most of the SDA prohibitions appear to be mechanisms Church leadership has adopted to keep SDA’s from associating with other Christians…
…I mean it’s difficult to grow in fellowship if you CAN’T EAT with someone.
…SDA’s take their diet past the Kosher level.

Also, if a person looks different enough by the way they look that person will tend to keep away from people they don’t look like…
…This is another way SDA’s are sort of programmed to shun outside fellowship.
…They probably get tired of people asking them why they do or don’t do such and such.

In the end I think the Christian teaching is how you act and how you treat others…
…I’m thinking this will play heavy in the end.

Hi Pythons,

Try that substitution sometime, it is very revealing!

I was reading the Bible the other day and came across these verses.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Luke 1:8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest’s office before God in the order of his course,
9 According to the custom of the priest’s office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

Luke 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Interesting! What was Stephen stoned for? Acts 6:14…for teaching that Jesus would destroy the Temple and change the customs delivered by Moses from God to the Jews.

What was Paul accused of teaching the Jews who lived among the Gentiles? Acts 21:21…that they should forsake Moses and not walk after those same customs for which Stephen was stoned, in this case circumcision is specifically mentioned.

What was Jesus relationship with the sabbath? He went to the synagouge which was his custom, just as it was the custom for all Jews who went to the synagogue on the sabbath.

Were the Apostles guilty of teaching doctrine contrary to the Law of God by teaching that the Jewish customs such as circumcision, Temple worship and ceremonies, and the sabbath were no longer binding upon Christians? No. The were guilty of teaching contrary to the customs of the Jews, not to the law of God.

Therefore, is working six days and resting on one and worshipping God, whether that day be Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or Saturday, contrary to the Law of God? No. To insist that it is reaches illogical levels of legalism as to be ridiculous.

Worshipping God on Sunday, is not contrary to the Law of God. It is only contrary to the customs of the Jews.

Teaching, however, that abortion is acceptable in many circumstances is, I would say, contrary to the Law of God.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

It would seem from the scriptures shared in my post above, that not only were those customs of the Jews acceptable to God, they were also given to the Jews by God. The followers of Jesus were accused and even killed by the Jews for preaching and teaching that those customs were not binding on the followers of the Messiah, the Christ, who is Jesus.

How often as a SDA did I, along with the majority of SDAs, use the following verses as indictments against the Catholic Church, and the majority of protestant denominations, that worshipping God on Sunday, was nothing more than ignoring the Law of God to follow the traditions of men:

From Matthew chapter 15:

Matt.15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
9*But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
From Mark chapter 7:

Mark 7:7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9*And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Never mind that in the context of these statements, Jesus is not talking about the sabbath. These statements, however, are used by SDAs to declare that traditions, are a rejection of the Law of God and His commandments. But as we saw above regarding the customs of the Jews, not all customs and traditions of religious people are a rejection of God’s Law and His commandments. Is the same true for the customs and traditions of Christians which differ from the customs and traditions of the Jews.

Let’s see what the first teachers and preachers of the Christian faith had to say:

From 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

2 Thess.2:13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15*Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

From 2 Thessalonians chapter 3:

2 Thess.3:3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Thess.2:15 indicates that the believers in Jesus Christ were taught and commanded to hold to the traditions taught to them by Paul. And those traditions were taught in the letters of Paul, but they were also taught by word of of the mouth of Paul…i.e., not written in the letters that would later become part of the canon of Holy Scripture.

Paul in 2 Thes.3:6 commanded the followers of Jesus Christ to withdraw from every brother who did not follow the traditions given to them by Paul.

Certainly these traditions which Paul taught and commanded to be obeyed by the followers of Jesus, under the ordained apostolic authority given him by Jesus Christ, are not mere traditions of men. They, like the customs and traditions of the Jews, are specific and full of meaning for the dispensation of salvation history in which they were given and taught. For the Jews these included those customs and traditions listed above for which the apostles were accused of teaching against, and even stoned to death for teaching against…because they found their fulfillement in Jesus Christ.

From the beginning, these traditions that Paul taught orally and in writing, included the meeting of believers on the first day of the week, the memorial of the resurrection, The Lord’s Day, for the breaking of bread, which from the beginning was what they called the celebration and observance of the Lord’s Supper.

From the earliest writings of the successors of the Apostles, long before Constantine came into the picture, those traditions are recorded and taught by The Church. Long before there was a Lutheran, a Presbyterian, a Methodist, a Baptist, or a Seventh-day Adventist denomination, there was the Catholic Church teaching, protecting, preserving, and even dying for these traditions of which Paul taught and referred to in his letters to the Thessalonians. The Church, 2,000 years later, still teaches, protects, preserves, and dies for these traditions, these customs, through and with and in and for the Holy Trinity. Why? Because these traditions were given by God to His Church in these last days for our salvation and our growth in union with Him and communion with fellow believers.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The Bible says that Jesus meant for His followers to observe His Father’s commandments… all of them, just as He Himself did.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus came to magnify His Father’s Law, to show how the Law, including the Sabbath, should really be kept.

Thank you for your patience and kindness Patrick Murebil, in talking with me.
God bless

Hi Anne88,

Does the Bible, John 15:10, really say that Jesus meant for His followers to observe His Father’s commandments?

It says the Jesus kept all of His Fathers’s commandments, but what Jesus says to those he is addressing, is that they should “keep MY (Jesus) commandments”, and then they shall abide in HIS (Jesus) love…even as I (Jesus) kept my Father’s commandments and abide in HIS (the Father) love.

Jesus is God incarnate to bring salvation to all mankind who will believe in Him, not just the people of Israel. Jesus kept all of The Father’s commandments given to the people of Israel, and then, being fully God Himself, Jesus gives HIS commandments to His followers. These commandments are found throughout the four Gospels, particularly in Matthew chapters 5-7.

No where does Jesus command His folllowers to keep the sabbath because it will be a test at the end of time. What He does say is that we must keep His commandments as He kept His Father’s commandments. And this is where the laws of the old and new covenants get changed. Not by man, but by the man-God, Jesus Christ, God incarnate, fully man and fully God and therefore the only one who can change any law that He gave.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Jesus came to magnify His Father’s Law, to show how the Law, including the Sabbath, should really be kept.

Hi Anne88,

Where in the Bible do you find the scripture that says the purpose of God becoming man in Jesus Christ was to magnify His Father’s Law?

I do know that Jesus said this:

***Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.***

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Seventh-day Adventists use the following verse to argue that worshipping God on Sunday is a tradtion of man and not a commandment of God.

***Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.***

Does this verse mean that tradition has no place in The Church that Jesus Christ established, and that the followers of Jesus Christ must avoid tradtion?

Paul writes this to the Thessalonians…**2 Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.**

Paul himself admoinishes the believers to stand fast to the traditions that he taught them. And how did he teach them these tradtions? By both oral and written transmission.

In 150 A.D., approximately 200 years before there was an authorized collection of writings that comprise the Bible book of the New Testament, Justin Martyr descibes Christian worship found in this link: Christian Worship

This describes the Eucharist celebrated by Christian believers, baptism, and worhship on Sunday, among other things. This is long before Constantine appears in Christian history which SDAs claim is the turning point from pure “Biblical Christianity” to the fallacy of Catholicism.

Interesting that Catholicism today, has not changed in its fundamentals from the tradition of the teaching of Paul in the NT books, the writings of Church leaders in 150 A.D., or throughout the following, roughly, one thousand nine hundred years. But much of this constant teaching of the Catholic Church from the beginning has been changed in the last 500 years by protestant denominations, and specifially the last 160 years of the SDA denomination.

Tradition, both oral and written, is what was taught to Paul and the other Apostles by Jesus, and then to the Church by Paul and the other Apostles and their successors from the beginning to this very day.

The Catholic Church determined, around 350 A.D. which written Tradtion that Paul refers to were to be included in the Sacred Scripure, the books of the New Testament; and which oral Tradtions that Paul refers to were to be included in the teachings of The Church, now contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

So no, worshipping God on Sunday is not a traditon of man substitued for the sabbath commandment, and nowhere is this found in the Bible. On the contrary, the tradition or custom of worshipping God on Sunday, The Lord’s Day, is that which Paul admonishes believers to stand fast by, which was given to Him by Jesus Christ when Jesus called Paul to be His apostle.

God bless all!!!

 

[spina1953]

Hi Patrick Murebil: it seems that it has been a long while since anyone has posted on this thread and maybe who you were asking is no longer around? Anyway you have made a great many great points in your posts.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi Patrick Murebil: it seems that it has been a long while since anyone has posted on this thread and maybe who you were asking is no longer around? Anyway you have made a great many great points in your posts.

Hi spina1953,

Yes it has been a while, but these questions and points are not necessarily directed to any one person. I welcome answers to my questions from anyone…especially those who make claims that “the Bible says” this or that, when an attentive reading of the quoted passages clearly shows otherwise.

If you get a chance, check out the first link in my signature below. It is a Facebook group of Catholics providing discussion points for other Catholics who are looking for help in dealing with SDAs. It is a restricted group, so if you think you are interested you would need to send a join request to the creator and moderator of the group. (Actually all of the links in my signature are great resources in addition to Catholic Answers, and are worth checking out!! I hope all is well with you!

God bless all!!!

 

[spina1953]

Hi spina1953,

Yes it has been a while, but these questions and points are not necessarily directed to any one person. I welcome answers to my questions from anyone…especially those who make claims that “the Bible says” this or that, when an attentive reading of the quoted passages clearly shows otherwise.

If you get a chance, check out the first link in my signature below. It is a Facebook group of Catholics providing discussion points for other Catholics who are looking for help in dealing with SDAs. It is a restricted group, so if you think you are interested you would need to send a join request to the creator and moderator of the group. (Actually all of the links in my signature are great resources in addition to Catholic Answers, and are worth checking out!! I hope all is well with you!

God bless all!!!

Hi Patrick: I understand, it was just a surprise that the thread was still live after all this time. I know that the questions are not directed any one person but to anyone who wants to give (name removed by moderator)ut or answers. It is not so much that the Bible say this or that but the way and manor in which it is interpreted by those saying the bible says this or that. generally speaking those who do that sort of interpretation like to pick and choose which Scripture verses that comes closest to their personal way of thinking. it is not just the SDA’s who do this but many of the protestant denominational groups some being very extreme in their religious views and understanding.

              There is of course those who are brought up believing what they are taught and then there are those who are drawn in by whoever spins the best while others are so gullible that they believe whatever is told them. But then there are those who in some way or manor coerce without really understanding what they are believing. it is not always easy to show the truth when one can believe what they want as their choice. as it has been said many times; Lies can travel the world several times before truth can tie its shoe laces.

I will of course check the places you have suggested and see what I can learn thanks for the advice on it.

 

[jimztigator]

Wow I am really learning some interesting things about the SDA church. I am an SDA and I don’t believe any of the stuff you folks are claiming I do.