Seventh-day Adventist's Sabbath and Catholic's Sunday

[Anne88]

There is no Biblical evidence for the resurrection of Moses either…
…But you do believe that Moses was resurrected, right?
Yes I do based on Jude 9 and the fact that Moses was at the transfiguration - which he couldn’t have done if he was dead and buried still (Deuteronomy 34:5,6) Moses represents God’s people who have died and will be resurrected at the 2nd coming of Christ, just as Elijah represents God’s people who will be alive at the 2nd coming of Christ and never experience death. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, so if there is something that I don’t understand clearly in one place, it will explain itself clearly in another place.

Ellen White taught that Christ was one with God “in the sense” that Christ was one with His Apostles…
…It wouldn’t be correct to say that the Apostles were one with God and therefore were God.
…Would it.
I don’t think those quotes are saying what you think they are saying, but I know there is nothing that I can say that will convince you otherwise
I want to be “one” with God too, that does not mean in a pantheistic “I am god” way, but I want to be so surrendered to God that His will becomes my will and is carried out daily in my life.

One of the most clear things the Sacred Scriptures has given us is that Christ couldn’t fail…
…In fact the only time in Scripture Jesus calls His followers “Fools”.
…Is when they intimated that Jesus “might not have made it”.
Can you tell me your Scripture reference for this? and Does God have freedom of choice? as God? as a man?

This is why the Creed makes it clear that according to Scripture it’s blasphemy to suggest Christ…
…Was capable of vice.

When I studied blasphemy, I discovered that it is blasphemy to say that you are God. It is blasphemy to say that you can do only what God can do (eg: Forgive sins) and it is blasphemy to doubt that Jesus is the Son of God. Can you show me the Scripture where it says what you say blasphemy is please?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

When I studied blasphemy, I discovered that it is blasphemy to say that you are God. It is blasphemy to say that you can do only what God can do (eg: Forgive sins) and it is blasphemy to doubt that Jesus is the Son of God. Can you show me the Scripture where it says what you say blasphemy is please?

Are you saying the Sacrament of Confession in the Catholic Church is blasphemy?

 

[Pythons]

Anne88:

Can you tell me your Scripture reference for this that He couldn’t fail ]? and Does God have freedom of choice? as God? as a man?

Sure,

Luke 24,22
Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, AND slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Matthew 16,21
From that time forth** began Jesus to shew unto his disciples**, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, AND suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, AND be killed, AND be raised again the third day.

Mark 8,31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man MUST suffer many things, AND be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, AND scribes, AND be killed, AND after three days rise again

Mark 9,31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day

Luke 24,36
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These ARE the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL things MUST be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day

As for the explicit ‘Thus saith The Lord’ that Christ would not fail the Old Testament Scriptures are saturiated with them…
…I will post one to give you an idea where us Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherns.
…Etc, etc are coming from.

Daniel 2,41
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, WHICH shall never be destroyed: AND the kingdom shall not be left to other people, BUT it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, AND it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; **the great God hath **MADE KNOWN to the king what SHALL come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is CERTAIN, AND the interpretation thereof sure.

No, God can’t NOT be God - God can’t deny Himself…

Zeph 3,4
The just Lord is in the midst thereof; he will NOT** do iniquity**: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame

There are approximately 100 other places Sacred Scripture clearly says the same thing…
…If you need me to post them I would be happy to Anne88.
…It’s THAT important.

Now, onto your other questions.

 

[Pythons]

Anne88:

Yes I do believe that Moses was resurrected ] based on Jude 9 and the fact that Moses was at the transfiguration - **which he couldn’t have done if he was dead and buried still **(Deuteronomy 34:5,6) Moses represents God’s people who have died and will be resurrected at the 2nd coming of Christ, just as Elijah represents God’s people who will be alive at the 2nd coming of Christ and never experience death. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, so if there is something that I don’t understand clearly in one place, it will explain itself clearly in another place.

Let’s look at that.

John 3,12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Moses died and was burried according to Deut 34, 5 & 6 - Do you agree with that?
…Do you agree that 1 Cor 15,20 & 23 identify Christ as the 1st incorruptable Resurrection?
…Do you believe that Moses was resurrected in a glorified body after death and assumed into heaven prior to Christ?

Also, I would like your thoughts on the following.

Hebrews 11, 24 - 28
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Verses 29 through 38 continues to describe other friends of God mentioned in the Bible…
…Then the whole list ( which includes Moses ) ends with the following statement.

Verse 39
And these** ALL**, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that THEY without us should not be made perfect

This is why, later on in Hebrews it is stated that it’s NOT the body but the spirits of those just men…
…Who had been “made perfect” & were in actuality, at the time of The Book of Hebrews.
…At a festive gathering in heaven.

Hebrews 12,18
For ye are NOT come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake **But ye are come **UNTO mount Sion, AND unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, AND to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Strong’s G3831 Assembly ]
I. a festal gathering of **the whole people **to celebrate public games or other solemnities

You are maintaining that these spirits of the just were are stated to be at this assembly…
…Are in a vegatative state ( unconcious ) & unaware of anything at all.
…Do you maintain that the angels are also in this vegatative state?

There are of course many other texts but this should be enough so that you can get a radar fix on our position.

 

[Pythons]

Anne88:

I don’t think those quotes are saying what you think they are saying, but I know there is nothing that I can say that will convince you otherwise I want to be “one” with God too, that does not mean in a pantheistic “I am god” way, but I want to be so surrendered to God that His will becomes my will and is carried out daily in my life.

I’m willing to look at anything you have Anne & would say that any Christian who’s serious about their faith…
…Would want to be so surrendered to God that His will would be their will.
…That isn’t what Ellen was speaking about however.

Ellen White
**The I AM **IS the Daysman between God and humanity, laying His hand upon both. …]" (The Desire of Ages, page 21 paragraph 2, page 22 paragraphs 1-4, page 24 paragraph 3, and page 25 paragraph 3.)

I.e “middle man”.

Not quite what Isaiah speaks of.

Isaiah 35,3
Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, **your God **will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

Jesus said that the above Scripture was speaking of Him…
…See: **Luke 7,22 - **

 

[Pythons]

Anne88:

When I studied blasphemy, I discovered that it is blasphemy to say that you are God. It is blasphemy to say that you can do only what God can do (eg: Forgive sins) and it is blasphemy to doubt that Jesus is the Son of God. Can you show me the Scripture where it says what you say blasphemy is please?

In your study of “blasphemy” did it become apparent that it would be blasphemy if…
…A person affirmed that Lucifer COULD “defeat God” given the right hypothetical situation(s)?
…If Scripture clearly states that “God” can’t ever cease to exist OR even “Deny His Nature”.

What would a teaching that suggests such be - if not utter blasphemy?

I would appreciate your answer to this.

 

[Anne88]

Are you saying the Sacrament of Confession in the Catholic Church is blasphemy?

I’m just saying what I believe based on the Bible (Luke 5:20-21, Mark 2:5-7)

I just restudied it this morning and found these definitions of blasphemy

1. Ignoring the Holy Spirit - Matt 12:31, Mark 3:28-29
2. Saying “I am God” when we aren’t God - Matt 26:64-65; Mark 14:61-64; John 10:30-33
3. To say that you can do what God only can do - Luke 5:20-21; Mark 2:5-7
4. To deny Jesus is God/Son of God - Acts 26:11 - where Saul persecuted early Christians and caused some to renounce/deny their belief in Jesus.
5. Apparently it is also blasphemy to misrepresent God’s character, or to teach/speak untruthfully about Him, The Sanctuary/Heaven, and those who dwell in heaven. - Rev 13:6

God bless

 

[Anne88]

Let’s look at that.

John 3,12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Moses died and was burried according to Deut 34, 5 & 6 - Do you agree with that?
…Do you agree that 1 Cor 15,20 & 23 identify Christ as the 1st incorruptable Resurrection?
…Do you believe that Moses was resurrected in a glorified body after death and assumed into heaven prior to Christ?

Also, I would like your thoughts on the following.

Hebrews 11, 24 - 28
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Verses 29 through 38 continues to describe other friends of God mentioned in the Bible…
…Then the whole list ( which includes Moses ) ends with the following statement.

Verse 39
And these** ALL**, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that THEY without us should not be made perfect

This is why, later on in Hebrews it is stated that it’s NOT the body but the spirits of those just men…
…Who had been “made perfect” & were in actuality, at the time of The Book of Hebrews.
…At a festive gathering in heaven.

Hebrews 12,18
For ye are NOT come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake **But ye are come **UNTO mount Sion, AND unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, AND to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Strong’s G3831 Assembly ]
I. a festal gathering of **the whole people **to celebrate public games or other solemnities

You are maintaining that these spirits of the just were are stated to be at this assembly…
…Are in a vegatative state ( unconcious ) & unaware of anything at all.
…Do you maintain that the angels are also in this vegatative state?

There are of course many other texts but this should be enough so that you can get a radar fix on our position.

Hebrews 11 also mentions Enoch who never died but was taken to heaven by God… so based on that and the fact that when you die you “sleep” for want of a better term and the dead know nothing and have no part in anything that goes on here on earth anymore (Ecc) I still believe that Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven.

Saints in the Bible usually refer to the body of believers - the church of Jesus Christ.
The Saints in Rev whose prayers are coming up before God are the saints on earth.

I could go on, but I recognize that you aren’t really interested in what I have to say. I don’t want to give you an occasion to twist my words.

I thank you for all the points you’ve brought up for me to consider and think through as they have served to strengthen my faith in what I believe.

Respectfully, I agree to disagree with you,

May God bless and continue to guide us into all truth.

 

[Anne88]

In your study of “blasphemy” did it become apparent that it would be blasphemy if…
…A person affirmed that Lucifer COULD “defeat God” given the right hypothetical situation(s)?
…If Scripture clearly states that “God” can’t ever cease to exist OR even “Deny His Nature”.

What would a teaching that suggests such be - if not utter blasphemy?

I would appreciate your answer to this.

Lucifer can’t nor couldn’t ever defeat God - he can’t even defeat us - meaning that he can’t force us to sin, we have to choose to sin.
We don’t believe that Lucifer could defeat God. We don’t say the Jesus would have sinned. Jesus saw Himself in Scripture (the OT) and recognized His part in it. He didn’t have any special advantage over us in living a sinless life. And He did live a sinless life, just as the Scriptures said He would. He lived and died as the Scriptures said He would and He rose again, as the Scriptures said He would. The Bible says that Jesus was tempted in all manner as we are, and that is why He understands our challenges/trials/persecutions and why He knows that we can overcome them as He did (by the power of God the Father granted to us as we fully surrender our lives to Him each moment of each day)

 

[Pythons]

I’m just saying what I believe based on the Bible (Luke 5:20-21, Mark 2:5-7)

I just restudied it this morning and found these definitions of blasphemy

1. Ignoring the Holy Spirit - Matt 12:31, Mark 3:28-29
2. Saying “I am God” when we aren’t God - Matt 26:64-65; Mark 14:61-64; John 10:30-33
3. To say that you can do what God only can do - Luke 5:20-21; Mark 2:5-7
4. To deny Jesus is God/Son of God - Acts 26:11 - where Saul persecuted early Christians and caused some to renounce/deny their belief in Jesus.
5. Apparently it is also blasphemy to misrepresent God’s character, or to teach/speak untruthfully about Him, The Sanctuary/Heaven, and those who dwell in heaven. - Rev 13:6

God bless

#1, Ignoring the Holy Spirit

Luke 2,25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, THAT he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

If we can take this Gospel account as fact we can know that God the Holy Spirit…
…Told Simeon ( an already old man ) that he wouldn’t die UNTIL he had seen The Christ.
…Remember Simeon was observing the Baby Jesus & right after that “Simeon says”;

Verse 29
Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people

Simeon evidently didn’t “ignore” the Holy Spirit when he affirmed by the Holy Spirit…
…That he could finally go to his rest ( DIE ) because he had seen the Christ, actual Salvation.
…It’s either that OR Simeon would be forced to remain alive for ANOTHER 30 plus years.
…To insure that Jesus didn’t sin and loose His own Salvation???

#4, Deny that Jesus is God / Son of God.

If suggesting that Jesus could have sinned and lost His Salvation at which point God would have eternally annihilated Him isn’t blasphemy what is? If that’s not denying Jesus is God then I would like to know what qualifies as denying Jesus is God would be?

#5, To misrepresent God’s Character.

Difficult for me to understand why you would admit this is a teaching of Scripture…
…When Ellen White taught Christ’s Character was such that it was capable of vice.

 

[Pythons]

Hebrews 11 also mentions Enoch who never died but was taken to heaven by God… so based on that and the fact that when you die you “sleep” for want of a better term and the dead know nothing and have no part in anything that goes on here on earth anymore (Ecc) I still believe that Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven.

Saints in the Bible usually refer to the body of believers - the church of Jesus Christ.
The Saints in Rev whose prayers are coming up before God are the saints on earth.

I could go on, but I recognize that you aren’t really interested in what I have to say. I don’t want to give you an occasion to twist my words.

I thank you for all the points you’ve brought up for me to consider and think through as they have served to strengthen my faith in what I believe.

Respectfully, I agree to disagree with you,

May God bless and continue to guide us into all truth.

Yes, Scripture says God translated Enoch while Enoch was living that he should not see death…
…Did Moses see death? Yes or No would be an appropriate answer here.
…So, you believe Christ wasn’t the 1st then - at least you are frank about that.

Interesting - you claim a literal interpretation of Eccl where it says that the dead know nothing…
…Yet when Eccl clearly states that there is no reward forever after death you gloss that over.
…How do you figure?

You have done a fairly good job of introducing one of the hall marks of modern Arianism…
…Soul Sleeping as taught by the JW’s, Christadelphians, WWCOG and SDA’s.

 

[Anne88]

Yes, Scripture says God translated Enoch while Enoch was living that he should not see death…
…Did Moses see death? Yes or No would be an appropriate answer here.
…So, you believe Christ wasn’t the 1st then - at least you are frank about that.

Interesting - you claim a literal interpretation of Eccl where it says that the dead know nothing…
…Yet when Eccl clearly states that there is no reward forever after death you gloss that over.
…How do you figure?

You have done a fairly good job of introducing one of the hall marks of modern Arianism…
…Soul Sleeping as taught by the JW’s, Christadelphians, WWCOG and SDA’s.

Yes Moses saw death - the first death that all must die if Jesus doesn’t return in their lifetime. Jesus died the 2nd death - the penalty for sin - for us. He is the only one who has done that, so yes, He is the firstborn from the dead.

Ecc 9:5 is talking about having a reward among the living - doesn’t mention forever. and it’s also referencing stewardship - in other words, live your life properly now. Do what you must do now, because when you’re dead, it’s too late.

I don’t think of death as “soul sleeping” yes we call it a sleep but putting those words to it gives the wrong interpretation of sleep. Death is death. Your body goes back to dust, your breath/life force (that has no conscience) goes back to God. When He returns He will resurrect us and give us new bodies so that we shall be like Him (in His resurrected form)

This is all terribly off topic as this topic is supposed to be about SDA Sabbath keeping and Catholic’s Sunday

 

[Anne88]

#1, Ignoring the Holy Spirit

Luke 2,25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, THAT he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

If we can take this Gospel account as fact we can know that God the Holy Spirit…
…Told Simeon ( an already old man ) that he wouldn’t die UNTIL he had seen The Christ.
…Remember Simeon was observing the Baby Jesus & right after that “Simeon says”;

Verse 29
Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people

Simeon evidently didn’t “ignore” the Holy Spirit when he affirmed by the Holy Spirit…
…That he could finally go to his rest ( DIE ) because he had seen the Christ, actual Salvation.
…It’s either that OR Simeon would be forced to remain alive for ANOTHER 30 plus years.
…To insure that Jesus didn’t sin and loose His own Salvation???

#4, Deny that Jesus is God / Son of God.

If suggesting that Jesus could have sinned and lost His Salvation at which point God would have eternally annihilated Him isn’t blasphemy what is? If that’s not denying Jesus is God then I would like to know what qualifies as denying Jesus is God would be?

#5, To misrepresent God’s Character.

Difficult for me to understand why you would admit this is a teaching of Scripture…
…When Ellen White taught Christ’s Character was such that it was capable of vice.

Character - ahh there’s the problem

Jesus’ character could not sin - why not? because He was fully surrendered to God. When we are fully surrendered each moment to God we too will not sin.
Because when we are surrendered to God, then His will becomes our will. God’s will was Jesus’ will because our blessed Lord and Saviour lived a life in complete surrender to God the Father.
If He have chosen to not develop this character then there’d be a need for discussion.
The point is that Jesus always was, is, and always will be God. He did not sin, He paid the penalty for us so that we too can overcome sin as He did. What a wonderful God, who left heaven to become just like us, so that He could make a way of salvation for us.

 

[Anne88]

Ecc 9:5 is talking about having a reward among the living - doesn’t mention forever. and it’s also referencing stewardship - in other words, live your life properly now. Do what you must do now, because when you’re dead, it’s too late.

Clarify, v.6 does mention forever… but once again it is talking about this life being the only one you have to live to do the work that God has given you to do here/now. * Under the sun* this sun, which will one day be destroyed when God makes everything new again.

 

[Pythons]

Lucifer can’t nor couldn’t ever defeat God - he can’t even defeat us - meaning that he can’t force us to sin, we have to choose to sin.

That’s right, Lucifer COULDN’T ever defeat God…
…Say this over several times, perhaps write it down.
…Because later in this post you will affirm Lucifer could have defeated God.

Anne88:

We don’t believe that Lucifer could defeat God. We don’t say the Jesus would have sinned. Jesus saw Himself in Scripture (the OT) and recognized His part in it. He didn’t have any special advantage over us in living a sinless life.

No Anne, SDA’s say that Jesus ‘COULD HAVE SINNED’, that it was a real possibility…
…Ellen White went so far as to say how Christ would have rotted in the tomb.
…It’s that hypothetical that’s heretical - It’s Arianism at it’s best.

Anne88:

And He did live a sinless life, just as the Scriptures said He would. He lived and died as the Scriptures said He would and He rose again, as the Scriptures said He would. The Bible says that Jesus was tempted in all manner as we are, and that is why He understands our challenges/trials/persecutions and why He knows that we can overcome them as He did (by the power of God the Father granted to us as we fully surrender our lives to Him each moment of each day)

That’s right, Christ lived a sinless life exactly like Prophecy, God the Father & God the Holy Spirit said He would…
…Of course God the Son Himself said He would live a sinless life.
…That means that there was no chance of God failing.
…So why did Ellen White boast that He could have failed?

 

[Pythons]

Yes Moses saw death - the first death that all must die if Jesus doesn’t return in their lifetime. Jesus died the 2nd death - the penalty for sin - for us. He is the only one who has done that, so yes, He is the firstborn from the dead.

Jesus died the 2nd death?
…Do you mean in the context of:

Rev 20,14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. **This is **the second death.

Is this what you mean or have you poured a new and alien meaning into what the second death is…
…Similar to how Adventist groups have re-defined the Trinity to include.
…God doesn’t really know the end from the beginning.

Anne88:

Ecc 9:5 is talking about having a reward among the living - doesn’t mention forever. and it’s also referencing stewardship - in other words, live your life properly now. Do what you must do now, because when you’re dead, it’s too late.

You should have kept reading.

Verse 6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion FOR EVER in any thing that is done under the sun.

Anne88:

I don’t think of death as “soul sleeping” yes we call it a sleep but putting those words to it gives the wrong interpretation of sleep. Death is death. Your body goes back to dust, your breath/life force (that has no conscience) goes back to God. When He returns He will resurrect us and give us new bodies so that we shall be like Him (in His resurrected form)

It’s an alien concept that was a johnny come lately in Christian history…
…Only accepted by the Sadducees which Jesus rebuked.
…But that isn’t really my beef as it’s over when we die in any event.

Anne88:

This is all terribly off topic as this topic is supposed to be about SDA Sabbath keeping and Catholic’s Sunday

The Apostolic Church met on Sunday to Worship Christ as God “as Christians”…
…Some Jewish Christians that came to Antioch didn’t like that evidently.
…But the Apostles straightened them out - they either got with the program or left the Church.

 

[Pythons]

Character - ahh there’s the problem

Jesus’ character could not sin - why not? because He was fully surrendered to God. When we are fully surrendered each moment to God we too will not sin.
Because when we are surrendered to God, then His will becomes our will. God’s will was Jesus’ will because our blessed Lord and Saviour lived a life in complete surrender to God the Father.
If He have chosen to not develop this character then there’d be a need for discussion.
The point is that Jesus always was, is, and always will be God. He did not sin, He paid the penalty for us so that we too can overcome sin as He did. What a wonderful God, who left heaven to become just like us, so that He could make a way of salvation for us.

Jesus was ONE PERSON with two Natures that were perfectly united…
…Christ “Eternally” did the Will of the Father according to Scripture.
…Eternally means prior to and after the Incarnation.

The way you word it suggests that you are saying IF Jesus didn’t fully surrender to “God”…
…He would have sinned because then He could have sinned - is this what you are saying?
…This is what Ellen White hyped often in her Arian musings.

 

[Anne88]

That’s right, Lucifer COULDN’T ever defeat God…
…Say this over several times, perhaps write it down.
…Because later in this post you will affirm Lucifer could have defeated God.

No Anne, SDA’s say that Jesus ‘COULD HAVE SINNED’, that it was a real possibility…
…Ellen White went so far as to say how Christ would have rotted in the tomb.
…It’s that hypothetical that’s heretical - It’s Arianism at it’s best.

That’s right, Christ lived a sinless life exactly like Prophecy, God the Father & God the Holy Spirit said He would…
…Of course God the Son Himself said He would live a sinless life.
…That means that there was no chance of God failing.
…So why did Ellen White boast that He could have failed?

I guess the question is this then.

How human was Christ when He became a man?
What kind of human nature did He have?

The answer to these questions is different for both of us.

But I am glad that Jesus was human in every way like us - to show us that we too can be overcomers of sin in the power of God the Father. Fully God, when He came to earth… yet also fully man without any unfair advantage.

 

[Pythons]

I guess the question is this then.

How human was Christ when He became a man?

As Fully human As He was Fully Divine.

Anne88:

What kind of human nature did He have?

The same human nature Adam had.

Anne88:

The answer to these questions is different for both of us.

They shouldn’t be.

Anne88:

But I am glad that Jesus was human in every way like us - to show us that we too can be overcomers of sin in the power of God the Father. Fully God, when He came to earth… yet also fully man without any unfair advantage.

God ‘took on’ or ‘added’ a human nature to His existing Divine Nature…
…These natures were not blended or mixed such as the early heresies suggested.
…They were perfectly united in the One Person Jesus Christ.

If you could help me understand what you mean by what you’ve said about Jesus it might help me understand…
…I’m talking about how you view Our Lord - i.e. was there in your understanding the man Jesus and the God Jesus or what?

 

[Anne88]

As Fully human As He was Fully Divine.

The same human nature Adam had.

If you could help me understand what you mean by what you’ve said about Jesus it might help me understand…
…I’m talking about how you view Our Lord - i.e. was there in your understanding the man Jesus and the God Jesus or what?

The same human nature Adam had before or after the fall?

Jesus was fully God when He was here on earth, but His divinity was covered with humanity. He had nothing more or less special than we - except His temptations were greater, because like you say, He was God, and could choose whether to continue on in the plan of salvation or not (as was His struggle in the Garden of Gethsemene before His crucifixion)

We believe that Jesus had the same nature as Adam before Adam sinned. Like Adam, He still had a choice, but because He lived His life in complete surrender of Himself to God, then God’s will (which was Jesus’ will from the beginning) was worked out in Jesus the Man.

When we accept Jesus as our Saviour, we too can learn to live a life of complete surrender to God, then God’s will is worked out in our life/becomes our will. This is how Jesus is our example (as well as our Redeemer). He doesn’t save us in our sins, but from our sins and He even showed us how!

The second death, is eternal separation from God because of our unconfessed/unrepented sins (yes it will, at the end of the millennium, involve a lake of fire that burns until all is consumed). Because Jesus never sinned, but took our sins, He was able to taste that death for us and yet be resurrected because He was perfect(God).

Have you ever read all the entire of some of EGWs books? The important ones like Desire of Ages? or have just read paragraphs of her writings taken randomly from here and there that have been twisted and forced to say what they don’t?

The Desire of Ages is the most beautiful (non-biblical) book I have ever read on the Life of Christ. It drove me back to the Bible to read the Gospels over and over again (and the prophecies of Christ in the OT) and just marvel and wonder at the plan of salvation and the unmeasurable depth, width and height of the love of God for wicked, sinful mankind… for even someone like me!