Seventh-day Adventist's Sabbath and Catholic's Sunday

[Pythons]

Patrick, can you offer any information as to how important October 22, 1844 is to SDA theology…
…And how this Investigation Judgement Doctrine requires a specific date Christ was killed on the Cross.
…My agrument is simply “IF” October 22, 1844 is true then Saturday ISN’T the Sabbath.

 

[amyrebeccap]

I was raised SDA and attended SDA schools for 13 years. I left the church my freshman year of college. My mom remains a devout SDA. I converted to Catholicism last year and am currently in my mid-30s. Between college and Catholicism, my beliefs ranged between agnostic and vaguely protestant. I became more serious about my faith journey after having my first child and never seriously considered Catholicism until I had a specific mystical experience while praying. I feel very confident that this experience was external to me since, though I had long ago abandoned the SDA church, I still harbored some anti-Catholic biases; it had honestly never occurred to me that Catholicism might be “truer” than protestantism.

SDAs are largely very nice and very sincere people, which I’m sure all of you know. One thing to bear in mind when engaging in dialogue with them is that there is no SDA catechism. They have 27 “fundamental beliefs,” but these don’t really delve into doctrinal nitty-gritty. While SDA core beliefs are quite anti-Catholic, there’s a wide range in how this manifests itself. My mom is fairly middle-of-the-road anti-Catholic. I was taught that the average Catholic parishioner is a nice person who is sadly misguided but often quite sincere in his/her Christianity. She regards anything associated with the church hierarchy, however, as pure evil – I remember asking what the Pope was after seeing JPII on TV as a young kid and being told just how wicked and evil he was. (As if!)

I used to work for a Catholic lady who had some Adventist friends. Her husband died in early middle age, and she told me that her friends wouldn’t enter the church for the funeral because it was Catholic. That’s definitely more extreme than my family – I remember visiting Catholic churches of historic interest as a kid (as a tourist, not for any service, of course). On the other hand, some “California” Adventists are kind of new agey and don’t really buy the whole Ellen White, Spirit of Prophecy thing … they’re more like cafeteria Catholics who have stayed for family/cultural reasons.

This is a long way of saying that you’re not going to get consistent answers when you debate different SDAs about their faiths. It’s not that SDAs are deliberately taught different things; it’s more a matter of emphasis. I never had any idea of Ellen White’s (obvious) Arian leanings when I was growing up, but I can’t say I gave much thought to the nature of the Trinity as a child, either. When you read this stuff your whole life, you just don’t really think too hard about the idea that if Jesus could have sinned … how is he really God? It never would have occurred to me.

I was taught in Adventist schools that the definition of sin is doing something contrary to the Will of God. By this definition, saying that Christ could sin is obviously ludicrous if you believe he is fully God – how could he do something contrary to his own will? But I don’t imagine this would be compelling to Anna, who might have learned an entirely different definition of sin.

My mother and I tend not to talk about religion anymore since she wants to see her grandkids. However, we had a few heated debates right after I converted. I asked her if there was anything – any evidence at all – that could change her mind about Adventism. She proudly said no. I think that’s a crazy way to approach one’s faith, but … she’s built her whole life around her Adventism and Adventist institutions. In a way, a crisis of faith would be cruel at her age. I pray for her (and she tells me every time we talk that she prays for me), but otherwise, I think it would be pointless to engage in furthere debate. My mom – and if I can generalize, many other ardent SDAs – aren’t interested in learning about (or seriously pondering) the faith’s numerous logical inconsistencies, historical inaccuracies, etc.; they are invested in being “right” and in perceiving themselves as a persecuted-yet-heroic defenders of the one true faith. I guess that’s human nature.

 

[Pythons]

amyrebeccap,

THAT was an incredibly informative post as to why we have witnessed some of the things we have from SDA’s…
…Thanks for sounding off!

 

[amyrebeccap]

No problem! One other thing to bear in mind is that E.G. White’s writings are chock full of warnings that Satan is trying to deceive you (fair enough), and the deceptions consist of … anything contrary to her writings. Kind of a neat trick, that …

I think this makes it very difficult for people who accept her “inspiration” to seriously consider information that undermines her writings. They honestly think she was inspired by God, so they tend to ignore/try to explain away her inconsistencies and inaccuracies.

With my mom, the tack I take is this: Jesus said in Matthew 16 that He was establishing a church and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Even my mom will admit that Jesus couldn’t have been referring to Adventism since it didn’t exist until 150 or so years ago.

Since I think Jesus is God, I trust that he has never abandoned the church he established – the Catholic Church, founded (as per Matthew 16) on Peter. And specifically, if it’s a contest between the words of Jesus and the words of E.G. White, then obviously as a Christian, I should trust His words over hers. Jesus never took it back or modified His words in any way, so that means that everything SDAs and EGW teach about Catholicism is erroneous.

I honestly don’t think E.G. White was evil. I think she was highly susceptible to suggestion and probably enjoyed the feeling of “specialness” that came with being deemed a latter-day prophet. I try to remember to pray for her soul.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick, can you offer any information as to how important October 22, 1844 is to SDA theology…
…And how this Investigation Judgement Doctrine requires a specific date Christ was killed on the Cross.
…My agrument is simply “IF” October 22, 1844 is true then Saturday ISN’T the Sabbath.

Hi Pythons,

No I really cannot. There is so much twisting and gyrating among Adventists on this topic that I have not looked into this very much at all.

Perhaps if you go to the SDA2RC.blogspot, and search through Hugo’s posts, you will find that he has addressed this.

Sorry that I cannot be of more help to you on this.

BTW, your posts above were so very informative!!! Thanks!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi amyrebeccap,

Your posts above reveal tremendous insight!!!

Thank you for sharing, and welcome to the Catholic Church!!!

I hope you will continue to contribute your thoughts and participate in the discussions!

God bless all!!!

 

[chero23]

I was raised SDA and attended SDA schools for 13 years. I left the church my freshman year of college. My mom remains a devout SDA. I converted to Catholicism last year and am currently in my mid-30s. Between college and Catholicism, my beliefs ranged between agnostic and vaguely protestant. I became more serious about my faith journey after having my first child and never seriously considered Catholicism until I had a specific mystical experience while praying. I feel very confident that this experience was external to me since, though I had long ago abandoned the SDA church, I still harbored some anti-Catholic biases; it had honestly never occurred to me that Catholicism might be “truer” than protestantism.

SDAs are largely very nice and very sincere people, which I’m sure all of you know. One thing to bear in mind when engaging in dialogue with them is that there is no SDA catechism. They have 27 “fundamental beliefs,” but these don’t really delve into doctrinal nitty-gritty. While SDA core beliefs are quite anti-Catholic, there’s a wide range in how this manifests itself. My mom is fairly middle-of-the-road anti-Catholic. I was taught that the average Catholic parishioner is a nice person who is sadly misguided but often quite sincere in his/her Christianity. She regards anything associated with the church hierarchy, however, as pure evil – I remember asking what the Pope was after seeing JPII on TV as a young kid and being told just how wicked and evil he was. (As if!)

I used to work for a Catholic lady who had some Adventist friends. Her husband died in early middle age, and she told me that her friends wouldn’t enter the church for the funeral because it was Catholic. That’s definitely more extreme than my family – I remember visiting Catholic churches of historic interest as a kid (as a tourist, not for any service, of course). On the other hand, some “California” Adventists are kind of new agey and don’t really buy the whole Ellen White, Spirit of Prophecy thing … they’re more like cafeteria Catholics who have stayed for family/cultural reasons.

This is a long way of saying that you’re not going to get consistent answers when you debate different SDAs about their faiths. It’s not that SDAs are deliberately taught different things; it’s more a matter of emphasis. I never had any idea of Ellen White’s (obvious) Arian leanings when I was growing up, but I can’t say I gave much thought to the nature of the Trinity as a child, either. When you read this stuff your whole life, you just don’t really think too hard about the idea that if Jesus could have sinned … how is he really God? It never would have occurred to me.

I was taught in Adventist schools that the definition of sin is doing something contrary to the Will of God. By this definition, saying that Christ could sin is obviously ludicrous if you believe he is fully God – how could he do something contrary to his own will? But I don’t imagine this would be compelling to Anna, who might have learned an entirely different definition of sin.

My mother and I tend not to talk about religion anymore since she wants to see her grandkids. However, we had a few heated debates right after I converted. I asked her if there was anything – any evidence at all – that could change her mind about Adventism. She proudly said no. I think that’s a crazy way to approach one’s faith, but … she’s built her whole life around her Adventism and Adventist institutions. In a way, a crisis of faith would be cruel at her age. I pray for her (and she tells me every time we talk that she prays for me), but otherwise, I think it would be pointless to engage in furthere debate. My mom – and if I can generalize, many other ardent SDAs – aren’t interested in learning about (or seriously pondering) the faith’s numerous logical inconsistencies, historical inaccuracies, etc.; they are invested in being “right” and in perceiving themselves as a persecuted-yet-heroic defenders of the one true faith. I guess that’s human nature.

When I read your post it reminds me of my situation with my girlfriend. she is a SDA, and everything is fine, a lot of love, respect and loyalty but when our faiths come up there’s a lot of tension. Her family has thrown some attacks on me because of my faith. At first she would try to find a reason or excuse for why they said it, but I told her, you need to grow up, you need to understand that your family has anger towards the CC.

The last time they attacked me was on Sunday, we were at her brother’s house, they were celebrating her niece’s bday. Then her brother says. This pope is going to the Holy Land, something no other pope has done before. I was thinking, that is not right, Pope Benedict, JPII, and Paul VI are the most recent ones who have went.

Well I told her what you told your mom, you need to tell your family that if they continue to attack me and my faith, and if we get married and have kids they will not have access to see our kids.

I know is tough, but I have not once spoken bad about her faith, not once has my family attacked her on her belief and faith. Heck, my mom even avoids cooking pork when she comes to avoid any problems or to make her uncomfortable.

Welcome home, I hope you and your family the best.

 

[Pythons]

When I read your post it reminds me of my situation with my girlfriend. she is a SDA, and everything is fine, a lot of love, respect and loyalty but when our faiths come up there’s a lot of tension. Her family has thrown some attacks on me because of my faith. At first she would try to find a reason or excuse for why they said it, but I told her, you need to grow up, you need to understand that your family has anger towards the CC.

The last time they attacked me was on Sunday, we were at her brother’s house, they were celebrating her niece’s bday. Then her brother says. This pope is going to the Holy Land, something no other pope has done before. I was thinking, that is not right, Pope Benedict, JPII, and Paul VI are the most recent ones who have went.

Well I told her what you told your mom, you need to tell your family that if they continue to attack me and my faith, and if we get married and have kids they will not have access to see our kids.

I know is tough, but I have not once spoken bad about her faith, not once has my family attacked her on her belief and faith. Heck, my mom even avoids cooking pork when she comes to avoid any problems or to make her uncomfortable.

Welcome home, I hope you and your family the best.

I would think that a good Seventh-day Adventist would anchor their personal position on any religious matter…
…To whatever Ellen White’s foundation on the subject was - her foundation was Arianism.
…Therefore, Christ absolutely had to be just as capable of vice as He was virtue.

It doesn’t matter what the Bible says about the subject because Ellen White, to SDA’s…
…Is the final word on what is to be believed as well as what the Bible does and doesn’t teach.
…Ellen Considered herself “God’s Pen” - thus you hear SDA’s call her “pen of inspiration”.

Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God’s mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God’s penmen, NOT His pen." **(Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One “The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers”) **

Ellen was quick to follow that up with how she was essentially a “sock puppet” for God…
…Saying exactly the words God told her personally to speak and write.

Ellen White
Before I stand on my feet, I have no thought of speaking as plainly as I do. But the Spirit of God rests upon me with power, and I CANNOT but speak the words GIVEN me. I dare not withhold one word of the testimony… I speak the words GIVEN ME by a higher power than human power, and I CANNOT, if I would, recall [retract] one sentence” (1MR 28).

As to any teaching which contradicts the “special points” of SDA Faith which at the time she wrote this…
…Would have included Arianism, The Father & Lucifer having rectums of flesh, etc.
…We can see what Ellen said.

Ellen White
We are NOT to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. THEY gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. . . . And while the Scriptures are God’s word, and are to be respected, the application of them, IF such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God” (1SM 161; CW 32; The Early Elmshaven Years 426).

That’s pretty simple - a huge pile of Sacred Scripture is worthless if it contradicts the special points of SDA faith…
…Became remember the Bible writers are God’s penmen & NOT His pen.
…But Ellen White WAS God’s pen so take her word for it.

Therefore if Ellen said Christ could have fallen into sin, lost His own Salvation & as she put it…
…A Third of God would have eternally ceased to exist.
…Then by golly you had better accept that teaching otherwise it’s the mark of the Beast for you.

Because the Catholic Church affirms ‘The Creed’ at each Mass & the Creed…
…Was the product of Church Counsels which condemned a sin capable Christ.
…Ellen White feverishly taught the opposite - that Christ could have sinned & been annihilated by “the real God”.

A while back I initiated a post on Club Adventist called why SDA’s don’t say the Nicene Creed…
…That thread is approaching 500k views - this is because Ellen’s Arian teachings are THAT important to SDA’s.
…Their whole system will collapse without Ellen White.

 

[Miriam1947]

A while back I initiated a post on Club Adventist called why SDA’s don’t say the Nicene Creed…
…That thread is approaching 500k views - this is because Ellen’s Arian teachings are THAT important to SDA’s.
…Their whole system will collapse without Ellen White.

Which sub forum or thread?

 

[Pythons]

Which sub forum or thread?

“Theological Town Hall”

 

[chero23]

“Theological Town Hall”

How do can see that forum?

 

[chero23]

I would think that a good Seventh-day Adventist would anchor their personal position on any religious matter…
…To whatever Ellen White’s foundation on the subject was - her foundation was Arianism.
…Therefore, Christ absolutely had to be just as capable of vice as He was virtue.

It doesn’t matter what the Bible says about the subject because Ellen White, to SDA’s…
…Is the final word on what is to be believed as well as what the Bible does and doesn’t teach.
…Ellen Considered herself “God’s Pen” - thus you hear SDA’s call her “pen of inspiration”.

Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God’s mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God’s penmen, NOT His pen." **(Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One “The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers”) **

Ellen was quick to follow that up with how she was essentially a “sock puppet” for God…
…Saying exactly the words God told her personally to speak and write.

Ellen White
Before I stand on my feet, I have no thought of speaking as plainly as I do. But the Spirit of God rests upon me with power, and I CANNOT but speak the words GIVEN me. I dare not withhold one word of the testimony… I speak the words GIVEN ME by a higher power than human power, and I CANNOT, if I would, recall [retract] one sentence” (1MR 28).

As to any teaching which contradicts the “special points” of SDA Faith which at the time she wrote this…
…Would have included Arianism, The Father & Lucifer having rectums of flesh, etc.
…We can see what Ellen said.

Ellen White
We are NOT to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. THEY gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. . . . And while the Scriptures are God’s word, and are to be respected, the application of them, IF such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God” (1SM 161; CW 32; The Early Elmshaven Years 426).

That’s pretty simple - a huge pile of Sacred Scripture is worthless if it contradicts the special points of SDA faith…
…Became remember the Bible writers are God’s penmen & NOT His pen.
…But Ellen White WAS God’s pen so take her word for it.

Therefore if Ellen said Christ could have fallen into sin, lost His own Salvation & as she put it…
…A Third of God would have eternally ceased to exist.
…Then by golly you had better accept that teaching otherwise it’s the mark of the Beast for you.

Because the Catholic Church affirms ‘The Creed’ at each Mass & the Creed…
…Was the product of Church Counsels which condemned a sin capable Christ.
…Ellen White feverishly taught the opposite - that Christ could have sinned & been annihilated by “the real God”.

A while back I initiated a post on Club Adventist called why SDA’s don’t say the Nicene Creed…
…That thread is approaching 500k views - this is because Ellen’s Arian teachings are THAT important to SDA’s.
…Their whole system will collapse without Ellen White.

I like what you have, I want to know if you can give me some information as to the SDA especially EGW teaching about about how Jesus could have fallen off, and Arianism.

 

[Pythons]

How do can see that forum?

Can I post a URL to another forum here?
…I think that’s frowned upon but may be wrong.

Perhaps a MOD can says if it’s allowed - and if so I will post it.

 

[Pythons]

I like what you have, I want to know if you can give me some information as to the SDA especially EGW teaching about about how Jesus could have fallen off, and Arianism.

She wrote about this quite a bit - she incorporated it into her best known books…
…And hammered the point home in SDA publications to the point others made commentary about it.
…It was important to her to contrast The Father’s eternal immortality with creature Christ’s “conditional immortality”.

 

[Anne88]

Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God’s mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God’s penmen, NOT His pen." **(Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One “The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers”) **

Ellen White
Before I stand on my feet, I have no thought of speaking as plainly as I do. But the Spirit of God rests upon me with power, and I CANNOT but speak the words GIVEN me. I dare not withhold one word of the testimony… I speak the words GIVEN ME by a higher power than human power, and I CANNOT, if I would, recall [retract] one sentence” (1MR 28).

Ellen White
We are NOT to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. THEY gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. . . . And while the Scriptures are God’s word, and are to be respected, the application of them, IF such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God” (1SM 161; CW 32; The Early Elmshaven Years 426).

Because the Catholic Church affirms ‘The Creed’ at each Mass & the Creed…
…Was the product of Church Counsels which condemned a sin capable Christ.
…Ellen White feverishly taught the opposite - that Christ could have sinned & been annihilated by “the real God”.

A while back I initiated a post on Club Adventist called why SDA’s don’t say the Nicene Creed…
…That thread is approaching 500k views - this is because Ellen’s teachings are THAT important to SDA’s.
…Their whole system will collapse without Ellen White.

Please, Pythons, you took those 3 quotes completely out of context and misinterpreted them!

The first one is in reference to the query of “why so many Bible writers?”. - and you have to read the whole passage.

The second one is in taken from her diary entries, and is about how she was compelled by the Holy Spirit to speak her messages so plainly.

The third one is about how we should respond to members of our own faith who are departing from the Bible truths and twisting Scripture to do so.

I invite anyone to look these quotes up and read them in their full context.
egwwritings.org/singleframe.php (you can search the above quotes and find them at this website)

Sir, I respect your dedication to knowledge and your religion. But please don’t twist the Bible or EGW to say something that they are not saying.

To the one who asked how long I’ve been an Adventist, and where do I base my faith. I was raised an Adventist, I’ve grown up knowing what the Bible teaches my whole life. I would say that I have only been truly converted for about 6 or so years - meaning that I only began to take my relationship with Christ truly seriously since then.

My faith is based, as was Ellen Whites, on the Bible. I do believe that she was used by God as a prophet and in all my studies I have not found one place where she contradicts Scripture - and yes I even went through all those websites that say something like “101 ways EGW contradicts the Bible” or the ones that try to say she is not a prophet or a false prophet. What did I find, that they took her and the Bible completely out of context or misinterpreted both.

I do appreciate questions to my faith, because I take them and study them out from the Bible so that I know what I believe and why I believe it. This is what the Bible encourages us to do (Acts 17:11) (and what EGW encourages us to do)

We can’t reject EGW, because if we reject her then we are rejecting every fundamental belief that we hold because they come from the Bible, and she is only agreeing with what the Bible has already said…

Regarding Python’s “Creature Christ” insistence. - We believe that Jesus existed, equal, with God the Father from the beginning. We do not believe that He was created.

To those asking Pythons to tell you about Seventh Day Adventism… That is like asking me what Catholics believe, or how they practice their religion! If you want to know what we believe you just have to ask us. Just like if you want to know what God’s Word is, you have to read the Bible, or if you want to know what Catholics believe you have to ask a Catholic!

God bless everyone’s search for Truth.

…Oh and a for a definition of sin read James 4:17

 

[Pythons]

Anne88:

Please, Pythons, you took those 3 quotes completely out of context and misinterpreted them! The first one is in reference to the query of “why so many Bible writers?”. - and you have to read the whole passage

In the context of the position of Ellen White’s teaching compared to the Bible writers they are absolutely in context…
…Ellen said that the Bible writers were simply God’s penmen & NOT His pen.
…Ellen claimed she was VERBALLY inspired - i.e. God told her the specific words to say and write.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but generally the “Inspired” Authors of Sacred Scripture…
…Didn’t boast every specific word was “direct from God”.

perhaps some more examples.

Ellen White
Review & Herald Jan 26,1905
The word given me is, ‘You are faithfully to reprove those who would mar the faith of the people of God. Write out the things which I shall give you, that they may stand as a witness to the truth till the end of time.’ I said, 'If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out

Ellen White
As soon as** I** take my pen in hand, I am not in darkness as to what to write. It is as plain and clear as a voice speaking to me, ‘I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go’” (2MR 319).

Ellen White
There are those who say, ‘Someone MANIPULATES her writings.’ I acknowledge the charge. It is One who is mighty in counsel, One who presents before me the condition of things” (1MR 30).

Ellen White
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)

“TESTIMONIES” is code for what Ellen White wrote, do you agree with this Anne88?

Ellen White
**The testimonies **are unread and unappreciated. God has spoken to you. Light has been shining from His word and from the testimonies, and both have been slighted and disregarded. (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 217)

Ellen White
If you lessen the confidence of God’s people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 66).

Ellen White
Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord’s messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be his messenger. ‘Your work,’ he instructed me, ‘is to bear my word. … It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances . Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil.’ Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?–Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; AND because my work includes much more than the word ‘prophet’ signifies." (Review and Herald, July 26, 1907)

So, she considered her work to be much more than just a regular old Prophet in the Bible…
…Based on the number of ‘visions’ Ellen reported as having she must be right?

Ellen White
Some are ready to inquire: ‘Who told Sister White these things?’ They have even put the question to me: ‘Did anyone tell you these things?’ I could answer them: ‘Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.’ But what they mean is: ‘Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?’ For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, BUT shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)

Ellen White
God has set me as a reprover of His people; and just so surely as He has laid upon me the heavy burden, He will make those to whom this message is given responsible for the manner in which they treat it. God will not be trifled with, and those who despise His work will receive according to their deeds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 679)

I’ve not taken Ellen out of context at all - the above statements placed in ANY context…
…Does not change the meaning that she was the end all for theological disputes.

Now, onto your other points.

 

[Pythons]

Anne88:

The second one is in taken from her diary entries, and is about how she was compelled by the Holy Spirit to speak her messages so plainly.

That’s right, ‘ALL’ her messages, be they in the books she wrote or when she engaged verbally…
…Ellen claims the actual words were given to her via God.
…That’s VERBAL INSPIRATION no matter how you slice it.

Anne88:

The third one is about how we should respond to members of our own faith who are departing from the Bible truths and twisting Scripture to do so.

Page 3, “A Sure Platform” at the following URL - it quotes Ellen’s statement…
…And includes ANYONE be they from within the SDA Church or without.

docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19421105-V119-45__B.pdf#view=fit

And page 2 of the following…
…Pay attention to the “Old Landmarks” article which proceeds it.

docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/AAR/AAR19430412-V47-14w__B.pdf#view=fit

Anne88:

I invite anyone to look these quotes up and read them in their full context.
egwwritings.org/singleframe.php (you can search the above quotes and find them at this website)

I second that, I would also invite all to look those quotes up and read them in their full context…
…I would also invite all to see just where how those quotes are used to bolster the “special points” of the SDA faith.
…In the publications printed by the SDA’s.

Anne88:

Sir, I respect your dedication to knowledge and your religion. But please don’t twist the Bible or EGW to say something that they are not saying.

This is the 2nd time you’ve intimated that I’m twisting what Ellen White said…
…I meet the issues head-on Anne and each time you accuse me of this.
…I will simply post more examples.

Anne88:

Regarding Python’s “Creature Christ” insistence. - We believe that Jesus existed, equal, with God the Father from the beginning. We do not believe that He was created.

SDA’s believed that God the Father exuded Christ “in time” and issued Him a “conditional deity”…
…That Christ was free to keep SO LONG AS He pulled on the rope properly.
…Do you also need to see quotes for this?

Anne88:

Oh and a for a definition of sin read James 4:17

I would also add James 1, 13…
…Which states:
Let **no man **say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But **every man **is tempted, **when he is drawn away **of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[Anne88]

That’s right, ‘ALL’

I would also add James 1, 13…
…Which states:
Let **no man **say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But **every man **is tempted, **when he is drawn away **of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

I would agree and add 1 John 3:4

For me, the definition of sin comes down to not doing what God has commanded in His Word to do. - or at least not doing what He has revealed to you in His Word.
When we don’t live as Jesus lived (in complete, daily surrender of His Will to the Will of The Father) then we will be drawn away into sin, but when we choose God and His Will every day, then, like Jesus when He was on earth, we too can live His life… it’s a process.

 

[Pythons]

I would agree and add 1 John 3:4

For me, the definition of sin comes down to not doing what God has commanded in His Word to do. - or at least not doing what He has revealed to you in His Word.
When we don’t live as Jesus lived (in complete, daily surrender of His Will to the Will of The Father) then we will be drawn away into sin, but when we choose God and His Will every day, then, like Jesus when He was on earth, we too can live His life… it’s a process.

I agree with your definition of sin Anne and would ask how you could justify the alien hypothetical…
…Of ‘God’ doing what goes against His very nature ( i.e. sinning & subsequently eternally ceasing to exist )?
…I’m not seeing this as a possibility anywhere in Sacred Scripture - I’m only seeing this hypothetical from Arius & Ellen White.

I’m looking at this alien hypothetical of Ellen White from the perspective of Sacred Scripture…
…Telling us it’s impossible for God to do something against His nature.
…And of course God Himself telling us in Sacred Scripture how everything ends up.
…I.E. God wins, Lucifer looses.

 

[Miriam1947]

“Theological Town Hall”

Went there, what is the thread title?