Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed...

[mackbrislawn]

Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed the Sabbath to Sunday and they go crazy on this…

The early Christians worshipped on Sunday. Catholics continue that practice. Of course Catholics believe these early Christians were Catholics. Protestants would not say this.

As far as the whole worship on Saturday controversy, that is what is is, deliberately. It’s just a picking point for the SDA to show how right they are and everybody else is wrong. The Jehovah’s Witnesses do the same thing about the name Jehovah. They use the word Jehovah which is meant to show how they are right and everybody else is wrong. (By the way, JW’s meet on Sunday but just because it is convenient, not because of any recognition of it’s being the Lord’s Day, or sabbath. They are more like the Catholics in believing that the sabbath is not a Christian requirement.)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner,
Thank you for that exposition.

I have another question to ask you.
Do you think that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 acted correctly in its decision to not require the Gentiles in Antioch to carry, " a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10), and instead write to them,
“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15: 28-29)

Peace
James

Why do you ask and what does it matter what I think about this?

 

[BobCatholic]

Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed the Sabbath to Sunday

I have a simple reply to this claim.

When? Which Pope or ecumenical council did it? And show me a citation please.

Response: crickets

 

[JRKH]

Why do you ask and what does it matter what I think about this?

I ask because I’d like to understand your position better.
As for “does it matter” matter what you think, I’d say yes it does matter since you wish to follow Christ.

So my question remains:
Do you think that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 acted correctly in its decision to not require the Gentiles in Antioch to carry, " a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10), and instead write to them,
“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15: 28-29)

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I ask because I’d like to understand your position better.

My position on what?

As for “does it matter” matter what you think, I’d say yes it does matter since you wish to follow Christ.

How does what I think about this v. in Acts affect my wish to follow Christ?

So my question remains:
Do you think that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 acted correctly in its decision to not require the Gentiles in Antioch to carry, " a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10), and instead write to them,
“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15: 28-29)

Peace
James

I just don’t see the relevance to the OP or to anythig really. So I guess I’ll pass.

 

[JRKH]

My position on what?

It seems quite obvious from your postings that you are a member of the SAD, so obviously I am trying to better understand your position - as an SDA mamber.

How does what I think about this v. in Acts affect my wish to follow Christ?

I think you may have a problem if you cannot reconsile and answer for the fact that the Early Church, in no less persons than the original Apostles themselves, saw fit to set aside the vast majority of “the Mosaic Law”, and that God saw fit to have this “setting aside” recorded in the Holy Scriptures, with the SDA’s apparent position that The Law, or at least large chunks of it remain in force.

I just don’t see the relevance to the OP or to anythig really. So I guess I’ll pass.

I’m disappointed. Both in that you don’t see the relevance, and also that you are not interested in responding.

Perhaps another member of the SDA would care to provide me with the SDA position on the matter of Mosaic Law being set aside for the Gentiles in Acts 15.

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It seems quite obvious from your postings that you are a member of the SAD, so obviously I am trying to better understand your position - as an SDA mamber.

I think you may have a problem if you cannot reconsile and answer for the fact that the Early Church, in no less persons than the original Apostles themselves, saw fit to set aside the vast majority of “the Mosaic Law”, and that God saw fit to have this “setting aside” recorded in the Holy Scriptures, with the SDA’s apparent position that The Law, or at least large chunks of it remain in force.

I’m disappointed. Both in that you don’t see the relevance, and also that you are not interested in responding.

Perhaps another member of the SDA would care to provide me with the SDA position on the matter of Mosaic Law being set aside for the Gentiles in Acts 15.

Peace
James

What do you mean by the “Mosaic Law”?

 

[benidict]

It seems quite obvious from your postings that you are a member of the SAD, so obviously I am trying to better understand your position - as an SDA mamber.

I think you may have a problem if you cannot reconsile and answer for the fact that the Early Church, in no less persons than the original Apostles themselves, saw fit to set aside the vast majority of “the Mosaic Law”, and that God saw fit to have this “setting aside” recorded in the Holy Scriptures, with the SDA’s apparent position that The Law, or at least large chunks of it remain in force.

I’m disappointed. Both in that you don’t see the relevance, and also that you are not interested in responding.

Perhaps another member of the SDA would care to provide me with the SDA position on the matter of Mosaic Law being set aside for the Gentiles in Acts 15.

Peace
James

give it up my friend. if he cant see the relevance, then its not worth it. its chrystal clear to me why you asked what you did. and it is very relevant to this thread. peace

 

[benidict]

What do you mean by the “Mosaic Law”?

really? are you serious?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

really? are you serious?

Really!!! Quite.

 

[benidict]

Really!!! Quite.

oh goodness…

 

[JRKH]

To me it seems obvious that Richard has been presented with something for which his SDA sources have no “ready answer”. As a result, instead of being able to post many supportive biblical references as he has in answer to other questions, he is forced to ask for many “clarifications” and to declare the bible reference as “irrelevant”.
If he says they erred, then that means the Apostles got a judgement wrong.
If he says they got it right, then he undercuts much of what the SDA holds to be true.

The fact is that the Council of Jerusalem demonstrates the Authority of the Church to make changes. To do precisely what Christ SAID they could do in Mt 16 and in Mt 18 - Bind and Loose - Whatever.
They looked at the issues at hand and made a judgement that any good “bible Christian” at the time would have disagreed with. They ruled against existing and accepted Scripture. They set aside many rules and customs that had been here-to-fore held as sacrosanct, and necessary to obey, by the believers in, and followers of, the God of Abraham, which these gentile converts became by their baptism.

Who gave them this Authority - Well, as stated above, Christ did!! Who did they reference in their decision? Scripture? Nope - The Holy Spirit!!!

So The Church - In council - Under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, asserted it’s authority over OT scripture.

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man of the Sabbath”. Richard reference this verse to demonstrate that the Sabbeth was meant for everyone and not just for the Jews. But in so doing He misses the larger meaning of Christ’s statement.
The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday.

Peace
James

 

[MarysRoses]

To me it seems obvious that Richard has been presented with something for which his SDA sources have no “ready answer”. As a result, instead of being able to post many supportive biblical references as he has in answer to other questions, he is forced to ask for many “clarifications” and to declare the bible reference as “irrelevant”.
If he says they erred, then that means the Apostles got a judgement wrong.
If he says they got it right, then he undercuts much of what the SDA holds to be true.

The fact is that the Council of Jerusalem demonstrates the Authority of the Church to make changes. To do precisely what Christ SAID they could do in Mt 16 and in Mt 18 - Bind and Loose - Whatever.
They looked at the issues at hand and made a judgement that any good “bible Christian” at the time would have disagreed with. They ruled against existing and accepted Scripture. They set aside many rules and customs that had been here-to-fore held as sacrosanct, and necessary to obey, by the believers in, and followers of, the God of Abraham, which these gentile converts became by their baptism.

Who gave them this Authority - Well, as stated above, Christ did!! Who did they reference in their decision? Scripture? Nope - The Holy Spirit!!!

So The Church - In council - Under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, asserted it’s authority over OT scripture.

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man of the Sabbath”. Richard reference this verse to demonstrate that the Sabbeth was meant for everyone and not just for the Jews. But in so doing He misses the larger meaning of Christ’s statement.
The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday.

Peace
James

well said!

I"ve been out of town for a few days. My daughter was in the hospital… and wouldn’t you know… the local SDA pastor dropped in for a visit. A very nice man, brought us some things we needed since we had left town for the big city hospital suddenly. Obviously, my SDA family had called him. I appreciated him, a kind loving Christian. Yet, at the same time he told me that sometimes when we are experiencing a crisis, its a time to re-evaluate our spiritual choices and direction and urged me to allow some of his church members come by and study and pray with us. He knows we are active and satisfied in another Church (we are of course Catholic).

Sadly, this to me illustrates a lot about the Adventists.

It was kind of him to bring us a few things and visit us in the hospital. Most Adventists are genuinely kind and Christian.

In my opinion though it was inappropriate to try and turn that into an opportunity to proselytize with “bible study” . It is my personal experience that most Adventists care more about their distinctive doctrines and gaining new members than our common Christian beliefs. Chief among these distinctives is of course the sabbath doctrines.

My response is always:

**from II Collosians:

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

**

I find it interesting that Adventists will happily quote the first part of this chapter when defending their position of not requiring circumcision… (we have seen that in this thread) Yet… when challenged on their beliefs about insisting that Christians must keep the Saturday Sabbath, they suddenly recall all about the “mosaic law” (which a poster claimed to not be familiar with ) and insist that the holy days and sabbaths mentioned in this passage are the ones in “mosaic law” and not “God’s eternal Law” distinguishing between the ten commandments and the other OT laws. (The OT and Jewish teachers do not make this distinction).

Yet… they do not eat pork or shellfish. There are no dietary laws in the 10 commandments. Lots of contradictory positions.

And no… Just as an aside… No… Adventists do NOT keep the Old Testament dietary laws. They have their own distinctive food rules not found in the bible. While they do observe a distinction between “clean” and “unclean” meats they ignore prohibitions against eating meat and milk together. (Chicken enchiladas with lots of Cheese is a favorite dish among my Adventist relatives). Many Adventists go beyond biblical restrictions and eat a ovo-lacto vegetarian diet. (The bible does not say we need to be vegetarian!) The diet considered “best” among Adventists is vegan, no animal products of any kind. This of course is entirely unbiblical. There are no endorsements of veganism in the bible.

Its not what we eat that makes us unclean, its what comes out of our mouths.

Its not what day we keep that matters over the Greatest Commandments… Love God with all your heart… Love your neighbor

Marysroses

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The fact is that the Council of Jerusalem demonstrates the Authority of the Church to make changes. To do precisely what Christ SAID they could do in Mt 16 and in Mt 18 - Bind and Loose - Whatever.
They looked at the issues at hand and made a judgement that any good “bible Christian” at the time would have disagreed with. They ruled against existing and accepted Scripture. They set aside many rules and customs that had been here-to-fore held as sacrosanct, and necessary to obey, by the believers in, and followers of, the God of Abraham, which these gentile converts became by their baptism.

Who gave them this Authority - Well, as stated above, Christ did!! Who did they reference in their decision? Scripture? Nope - The Holy Spirit!!!

So The Church - In council - Under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, asserted it’s authority over OT scripture.

What exactly is it that you think they changed. Outside of the laws concerning the sanctuary and it’s feasts that were prophetic and were done away with once Christ came.
Col2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Again I ask. What do you mean by “Mosaic Law”

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man of the Sabbath”. Richard reference this verse to demonstrate that the Sabbeth was meant for everyone and not just for the Jews.
But in so doing He misses the larger meaning of Christ’s statement.
The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday.

Peace
James

Not so,
Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Luke 23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

If you go to Gen.1 you will notice that Jesus along with all the physical things of the universe is creating the days. The morning and the evening of the first day etc… Gen2:1 tells us that all the physical stuff is finished, but in v. 2 it says that God ended His work. So, there was still somethig left to create. Well we know from v. 1 that that is not any of the physical universe, so what is it. Well looking back in Gen. 1 the only things that God was creating that were not of the physical universe were the days. SO THE ONLY THING THAT GOD CREATED ON THE SEVENTH DAY WAS THE DAY ITSELF and v.3 says
“And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY. Not the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth. GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY.

In Ex.20 we see that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

And in Luke 23:52-24:1 we see that the Sabbath lies between The Preperation day Friday and the 1st day Sunday. Which would make it Saturday.

Now you come along and say:

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man of the Sabbath”. Richard reference this verse to demonstrate that the Sabbeth was meant for everyone and not just for the Jews.
But in so doing He misses the larger meaning of Christ’s statement.
The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday.

In light of what I have just shown you from the word of God and of coarse Jesus being the creator God. **3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it **How can you get that "The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday."
I mean please JRKH what am I missing in Christ’s statement?

 

[KathleenGee]

Ya’ll don’t know the recent history of Catholic/SDA dialogue. We are burned out…

Fruit loops…going in circles, bearing little fruit.

However, we did think it a good restart to start over and see how we mutually agree on Christology…on Who Christ is…I was going to draw on resources…but they were massive for me to read and condense into simple terms…an SDA member had to be gone for a few days…I am now getting ready to go back into public ministry…

But if some people could pick up our slack…we could start a new thread on how we are the same in Christ…and bear good fruit and Christian relationships.

 

[KathleenGee]

The thread is ‘Info on SDA’, now on page 3 of this forum.

 

[JRKH]

What exactly is it that you think they changed. Outside of the laws concerning the sanctuary and it’s feasts that were prophetic and were done away with once Christ came.
Col2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Again I ask. What do you mean by “Mosaic Law”

Not so,
Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Luke 23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

If you go to Gen.1 you will notice that Jesus along with all the physical things of the universe is creating the days. The morning and the evening of the first day etc… Gen2:1 tells us that all the physical stuff is finished, but in v. 2 it says that God ended His work. So, there was still somethig left to create. Well we know from v. 1 that that is not any of the physical universe, so what is it. Well looking back in Gen. 1 the only things that God was creating that were not of the physical universe were the days. SO THE ONLY THING THAT GOD CREATED ON THE SEVENTH DAY WAS THE DAY ITSELF and v.3 says
“And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY. Not the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth. GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY.

In Ex.20 we see that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

And in Luke 23:52-24:1 we see that the Sabbath lies between The Preperation day Friday and the 1st day Sunday. Which would make it Saturday.

Now you come along and say:

In light of what I have just shown you from the word of God and of coarse Jesus being the creator God. **3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it **How can you get that "The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday."
I mean please JRKH what am I missing in Christ’s statement?

And again I ask, do you think that the council of Jerusalem erred in their judgement?

Peace
James

 

[benidict]

What exactly is it that you think they changed. Outside of the laws concerning the sanctuary and it’s feasts that were prophetic and were done away with once Christ came.
Col2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Again I ask. What do you mean by “Mosaic Law”

Not so,
Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Luke 23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

If you go to Gen.1 you will notice that Jesus along with all the physical things of the universe is creating the days. The morning and the evening of the first day etc… Gen2:1 tells us that all the physical stuff is finished, but in v. 2 it says that God ended His work. So, there was still somethig left to create. Well we know from v. 1 that that is not any of the physical universe, so what is it. Well looking back in Gen. 1 the only things that God was creating that were not of the physical universe were the days. SO THE ONLY THING THAT GOD CREATED ON THE SEVENTH DAY WAS THE DAY ITSELF and v.3 says
“And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY. Not the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth. GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY.

In Ex.20 we see that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

And in Luke 23:52-24:1 we see that the Sabbath lies between The Preperation day Friday and the 1st day Sunday. Which would make it Saturday.

Now you come along and say:

In light of what I have just shown you from the word of God and of coarse Jesus being the creator God. **3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it **How can you get that "The benefits of the Sabbath, rest and worship, can be just as easily, as fully and as truly achieved on Sunday as they can on Saturday."
I mean please JRKH what am I missing in Christ’s statement?

thank God!!! i really was beginning to worry if you were just pulling our chains. thank you for the informative educated response. you can now come out or the spiritual closet, and put SDA, or whatever branch you want to. Peacet to you and yours

 

[JRKH]

And again I ask, do you think that the council of Jerusalem erred in their judgement?

Peace
James

Richard - Please disregard the aobve referenced post.

Peace
James

 

[emarc]

archive the march 2004 issue of This Rock w/c featured under Father Knows Best
how the early Christians viewed sabbath. very enlightening.
God bless.