Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed...

[Javl]

Col.2
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

What Paul is refering to in Col.2 were the yearly festivals and sabbaths of the sanctuary which were prophetic and were a type or foreshadowing of Jesus and His sacrifice. When Jesus came, when type met antitype they were no longer needed and were nailed to the cross v.14 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This is not refering to the Sabbath commandment which was both spoken by God and written by His own finger to signify it’s permanence.

Thank you for your answer, Richard. I disagree with your response, since though it may be a foreshadow of things to come, I see no connection to the sanctuary. If there were, Paul most certainly would have made direct mention of it as he has done in other instances. This is reading something into Paul’s exhortation which is not there.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JRKH]

I believe I clarified this in my last post.

not really.

Originally Posted by JRKH
Not at all. In fact I take God at His word even to the point of submitting my doubts to His uathoritative Church which He founded, gave authority and which Paul refers to as the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth.

All except maybe this.
Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

These commandments were given by Jesus to Moses on mount Sinai.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

And yet - According to Jesus, God did not include the second most important commandment of all in these ten.

What Jesus did do, by His cross and reusrection was to make all things new, return the Holy spirit to the world, and create an authoritative body for to teach and to "bind and Loose - Whatever.

Originally Posted by JRKH
What I do not “take at it’s word” is your interpretation of the bible which is flawed.

What specifically?

Though I will not argue this with you since it would be pointless, you, like many other protestants, misinterpret Mt 16:16-19, Mt 18:15-18, thinking this does not point to an authortiative Church and yet you cling to and make authoritative one of mans (or womans) devising started in the 1800’s.

The only authority that Jesus gave His church was to teach and preach “all things I have commanded you”. Matt.28:19,20 Thereby giving them the keys to the Kingdom (His Word). And bindig them or loosing to the heavenly kingdom by that word.
So you thinkg that this:
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

AND THIS

Matthew 16: 17-19
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church (Singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Limits the Church only to “teaching” and “preaching”? You believe that the keys are to “The Word”??? I suggest you read Mt 16 again. The Keys are to “heaven” my friend. The authority to bind and loose applies to “whatever” my friend.

You see when it comes to interpretations and disagreements - as we still have - there is need of an authoritative Church and not simply the written word.

I will bring you and your wife up before my church for prayer this Sabbath. I am sorry for your wifes affliction I will pray for her. I don’t think that we’ve seen the last of one another. Peace be with you James.

Thank you for this.
No - I’ll probably poke in, but in case I don’t or have to cut short etc. Please understand why. I see others have come into the conversation so I suspect you won’t be lacking in someone to discuss with.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Wow, Cool, You carry on a dialogue (argument) with me and I’m not even there (here)
I don’t know. Am I supposed to take this straw man argument seriously? I mean seriously.

And yet you neither answer the question or refute my assertions.

You say above that the only authority we need is the infallible word of God.
Could you tell me what you believe that infallible word is??

Is the written word of any value without the Holy Spirit?

Is the Holy Spirit of any value without the Written Word?

Now - I place no words in your mouth, make no “dialogue” without you. Please answer the questions.

Peace
James

 

[me_again]

And yet you neither answer the question or refute my assertions.

You say above that the only authority we need is the infallible word of God.
Could you tell me what you believe that infallible word is??

Is the written word of any value without the Holy Spirit?

Is the Holy Spirit of any value without the Written Word?

Now - I place no words in your mouth, make no “dialogue” without you. Please answer the questions.

Peace
James

This is a very interesting dichotomy because SDA theology claims to use sola scripture to arrive at their heretical conclusions, to include the following false doctrines-of-devils**:**

• Jesus didn’t start judging the living and the dead until the year 1844 [sic].
  .
• Jesus didn’t enter the heavenly holy of holies as our high priest until 1844 [sic].
  .
• Only those who go to church on Saturday are sealed with the Holy Spirit [sic].
  .
• Those who worship God on Sunday have received the mark of the beast [sic].

While Adventists claim to use sola scripture to arrive at these heretical conclusions, in reality, they don’t e.g. Adventists use the prolific writings of their founder, Ellen G. White, to arrive at these heretical conclusions.

The reason SDAs will not identify themselves as Adventists at their “bible prophecy seminars” is because too many people know about these false doctrines – and subsequently, too many people are reviled by these false doctrines (see the list above). These “SDA prophecy seminars” will not disclose anywhere (in the beginning) the fact that they are Adventists**;** that’s their way of casting a wide net to ensnare unsuspecting people who are not thoroughly literate on church history, as well as on the scriptures.

Similarly, SDAs who visit forums like this will not identify themselves as SeventhDay Adventists because it immediately alerts too many viewers of the coming false doctrines-of-devils that will be presented. Throughout this Catholic chat forum, you will notice that none of them identify their religion as SDA. There is a reason for this!!! It’s because they want to present these SDA false doctrines and SDA heresies to unsuspecting readers under the guise of “traditional sola scriptural Protestantism” and not under the banner of Adventism. They catch more fish that way.

To reiterate**:** Adventists present doctrines-of-devils as sola scripture, but it’s a lie because it’s predicated on the prolific heretical writings of their founder**:** Ellen Gould White. Her writings are a demonic snare because there are many truths interspersed throughout the demonic heresies that she presented. Just because Ellen White presented some truths doesn’t justify or scripturally establish the heresies that she concurrently presented. That’s exactly how the devil made his case at the beginning of time in the Garden of Eden to Adam and Eve. Nothing has changed!!!

It’s important to love the sinner [Adventists], but hate the SDA doctrines-of-devils**;** and then provide a scriptural and historical means for the demonically ensnared Adventists to escape!

 

[me_again]

Thank you Richard for admitting that you believe the following heresies: * That Jesus didn’t starting “judging the living and the dead” until 1844.
.

• And that Jesus has been judging the living and the dead from 1844 until now, in preparation for His Second coming.

**Richard, if you believe in SDA teachings more than other Protestant denominational teachings, then why don’t you list SeventhDay Adventism as your denomination in your profile at this forum, instead of listing it as “Protestant”? :newidea:

Pray tell?** :idea:

Richard, an answer to this question is still requested.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You are touting traditional SDA doctrine that tells you that that particular scripture isn’t referring to weekly sabbaths.

Not at all brother. Let’s look at them a little closer.

Col.2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Paul spends the first 13 vs. of Col.2 telling us who he is preaching about. That being Jesus. He tells us that we “being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” and in the process, **14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; **

Ok, now we have to ask ourselves just what these handwritten ordinances that are against us are.

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Well, let’s look at two ordinances, commandments… Now, remember the criteria for them to be taken away nailed to the cross, not mine, but Pauls. They must be hand written (by men) They must have things in them that are against us, and they must be a foreshadowing of Jesus.

First, the passover. You can read about it in Ex.ch. 12 I have selected vs. that illustrate my point.
Ex.12
13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

It says “the blood shall be to you for a token” well, a token of what? Quite clearly it is a token of the blood of Jesus Christ.
Jn.1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Ok, we have the foreshadowing of Jesus.

15Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

V.15 tells us that anyone that does not keep the Passover will be cut off. This is clearly “against us”

16And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

V. 16 tells us that no work may be done in those days. This makes them sabbaths.

Deu.31:24And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

These laws were written by the Hand of Moses and placed in the side of the ark by the Levites, which signified that they were temporary or until they were completed by Jesus.
So, we have all of our criteria present in the feasts of the sanctuary.

Now let’s look at the Sabbath commandment.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is nothing in this commandment that is against us.
V. 11says it is a memorial of creation no foreshadowing of any kind.
Deu.5:22These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

These commandments (the decalogue) were written by the hand of God.
Deuteronomy 10:2
And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
and were placed inside the ark to show that God’s kingdom is based on His perfect law. This law is a reflection of the character of God and is therefore perfect. So, why change perfection?

Are you going to trust an SDA doctrine that was developed based on a false date-setting prophecy from 1844?

You’re saying the prophecies of Daniel 8,9 are false? I believe all the bible is true.

After Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, it became known as “the Lord’s day” or as resurrection day

Maybe to some apostates did but Mark 2
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. says the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. Doesn’t that make the Sabbath the Lords day?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

If you will note by what Christ says in Mt 22:36-40, the Law of Love is the source and underpinning for the ten commandments.

So, you think God’s “Law of Love” is different than the ten commandments?

Pecisely - Under the old covenant it is the Pharasees we were to obey for they were teh rightful authority. Under the New covenent (as I pointed out earlier) it is the Church, built upon Peter and with the authority to Bind and Loose, that we are to obey.

Jesus said to obey the pharasees because they were for the most part telling the people to keep the commandments of God. The CC teaches us that the Sabbath commandment has been changed and we no longer have to keep God’s commandment’s. Commandments that I have pointed out to you will be kept by God’s people throughout eternity. Christ gave no authority to change any of God’s law. What He gave them authority to do was “to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Which are the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Thereby binding them to heaven through His word or not preaching His words to them and loosing them to the kingdom. I explained this all before . Seems like we’re going in circles.

Again - you are fereing to something that applies under the old covenant.
We live under the new covenant.
Christ, by His cross and resurrection has freed us and made all things new.

So, you are saying that Jesus spoke these words to these pharasees, inspired the writers of the gospels to include them and they have an application only to people that died 2000 yrs. ago. I mean what’s the point. Have you ever heard the term the living word of God. What this means is that every thing in the bible can be applied not only to the people in Jesus’ time but also to us today. So when Jesus says Mark 7:9 Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. He is talking directly to you James as well as to me. So, don’t give me this view that there are some things in the bible that don’t apply to us. Because when you start to do that you become the editor for the word of God. It’s a cop out. If you don’t feel that you want to do something that the bible tells you to do or you don’t feel it fits neatly enough into your theological view, you just say, oh that doesn’t apply to us today.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

:
Of the many millions of people that have died before the return of Jesus there will be many Sunday keepers going to heaven with Jesus who truely believe that in Sunday they were keeping the Sabbath. **However in the time just before Jesus comes The Sabbath message will be proclaimed with much ferver so that there will be no doubt as to which is the commandment of God and which is the commandment of men and of the people that are alive at Christ’s return that will be taken up to heaven with Him there will be no Sunday keepers. **They have made thier choice to be obedient to man rather than God. And God will honor that choice. They will be destroyed by the brightness of His comming.

I think this is very clear.

This remains confusing and contradictory and unclear.
Are you saying that, the message of this is being, “proclaimed with much ferver”, now by the SDA, or that this proclamation will be occurring in the future?

Since about the 1860’s the Sabbath message has been proclaimed, it is being proclaimed today, and it will be proclaimed in the future.

Are the “Sunday keepers” now, condemned becuase the SDA has thus proclaimed?

The SDA church does not condemn anyone.

Or may “Sunday keepers” still make it to heaven because they are still to, “be judged by the light we received…”, as you said in an earlier post.

See emboldened above.

**The “Law of the New convenant” Is the same law as the old covenant inscribed on our hearts.
Jer.31
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. **
Yes - The Law of Love.

Yes I know that these things come from the OT.
But do you realize that the cammandment Jesus says is the **second most important **commandment of all is not even IN the ten commandments???
I find that rather interesting.

Peace
James

Neither one is in the ten commandments. What they are is a synopsis of the Decalogue.
First four = love God. Last six = love your nieghbor as yourself.

 

[benidict]

So, you think God’s “Law of Love” is different than the ten commandments?

Jesus said to obey the pharasees because they were for the most part telling the people to keep the commandments of God. The CC teaches us that the Sabbath commandment has been changed and we no longer have to keep God’s commandment’s. Commandments that I have pointed out to you will be kept by God’s people throughout eternity. Christ gave no authority to change any of God’s law. What He gave them authority to do was “to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Which are the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Thereby binding them to heaven through His word or not preaching His words to them and loosing them to the kingdom. I explained this all before . Seems like we’re going in circles.

So, you are saying that Jesus spoke these words to these pharasees, inspired the writers of the gospels to include them and they have an application only to people that died 2000 yrs. ago. I mean what’s the point. Have you ever heard the term the living word of God. What this means is that every thing in the bible can be applied not only to the people in Jesus’ time but also to us today. So when Jesus says Mark 7:9 Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. He is talking directly to you James as well as to me. So, don’t give me this view that there are some things in the bible that don’t apply to us. Because when you start to do that you become the editor for the word of God. It’s a cop out. If you don’t feel that you want to do something that the bible tells you to do or you don’t feel it fits neatly enough into your theological view, you just say, oh that doesn’t apply to us today.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I think this is very clear.

Since about the 1860’s the Sabbath message has been proclaimed, it is being proclaimed today, and it will be proclaimed in the future.

The SDA church does not condemn anyone.

See emboldened above.

**The “Law of the New convenant” Is the same law as the old covenant inscribed on our hearts.
Jer.31
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. **
Yes - The Law of Love.

Neither one is in the ten commandments. What they are is a synopsis of the Decalogue.
First four = love God. Last six = love your nieghbor as yourself.

and round and round it goes… hey Richard. its obvious we are not going to reach concensus. anyhow… Richard. is the book entitled, “what i like about Baptist, Pentacostals, and Catholics,” still being sold? it was from a SDA author, and i really liked it. didnt know if you had read it or not. child guidance by e.g. white was pretty good as well. even though i do not believe she was a prophet, and was seriously misguided in spiritual areas. she did have some interesting takes on day to day issues that i find benificial. peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

not really.

And yet - According to Jesus, God did not include the second most important commandment of all in these ten.

As far as I know The first is not included either. What those two great commandments are, is a synopsis of the dacalogue. God’s law of love.

What Jesus did do, by His cross and reusrection was to make all things new, return the Holy spirit to the world, and create an authoritative body for to teach and to "bind and Loose - Whatever.

What He did not do was change His law. The ten commandments, personally or through His church.

Though I will not argue this with you since it would be pointless, you, like many other protestants, misinterpret Mt 16:16-19, Mt 18:15-18, thinking this does not point to an authortiative Church and yet you cling to and make authoritative one of mans (or womans) devising started in the 1800’s.

My church is the woman talked about in Gen. 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. And Rev. 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is the remnant church that has been around since Adam and Eve fell.

The only authority that Jesus gave His church was to teach and preach “all things I have commanded you”. Matt.28:19,20 Thereby giving them the keys to the Kingdom (His Word). And bindig them or loosing to the heavenly kingdom by that word.
So you thinkg that this:
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

AND THIS

Matthew 16: 17-19
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 “I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church (Singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Limits the Church only to “teaching” and “preaching”? You believe that the keys are to “The Word”??? I suggest you read Mt 16 again. The Keys are to “heaven” my friend. The authority to bind and loose applies to “whatever” my friend.

Yes those vs.are talking about bringing people into the kingdom of God through the preaching, teaching of Jesus words. The ONLY WAY

John 14:6 (King James Version)
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You see when it comes to interpretations and disagreements - as we still have - there is need of an authoritative Church and not simply the written word.

Well, If there is a need for an authoritative church, and I’m certainly not saying there is. That church is not the CC. As I have shown you many times, your churches interpretations are for the most part wrong.

Thank you for this.
No - I’ll probably poke in, but in case I don’t or have to cut short etc. Please understand why. I see others have come into the conversation so I suspect you won’t be lacking in someone to discuss with.

Peace
James

You’re welcome and I do understand.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And yet you neither answer the question or refute my assertions.

I didn’t think I needed to. You were asking the questions and answering them too.

You say above that the only authority we need is the infallible word of God.
Could you tell me what you believe that infallible word is??

The infallible Word of God is Jesus.
John 1:14 (King James Version)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And He is manifest in the infallible written word. The record that God has given of His son.
1Jn.5
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Is the written word of any value without the Holy Spirit?

Is the Holy Spirit of any value without the Written Word?

Now - I place no words in your mouth, make no “dialogue” without you. Please answer the questions.

Peace
James

These questions are pointless since we do have the written word and we do have the Spirit. I’m not playing this silly game James.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Is the written word of any value without the Holy Spirit?

Thank you for making my case for me regarding authority.
You have just stated that my questions are, “pointless since we do have the written word
and we do have the Spirit.”
By this, and our discussions here I can reasonably deduce that when you say, “we have the Holy Spirit”, you are refering to those who are members of the SDA. That is those who "keep the Sabbath.
I say, We have the Holy Spirit, meaning the Catholic Church.

Both of us believe that we have the written word AND the Holy Spirit, yet one of us must be wrong. One of us must be, by a false teaching, leading others astray by our sinful, doctrinal error. For the sake of the unity of the Body of Christ, and the good of souls, there is need for someone, or some authoritative body to tell us who is right and who is wrong. Then we should agree to abide by the decision of that body.
Do you see any shades of Mt 18:15-18 in what I am describing??

The Written word by istelf is not sufficient to resolve the issue so long as each is convinced that his understanding is “Spirit Led”. You have been going around with us here for many days and more than 150 posts. Yet we remain deadlocked. Steps one and two of Mt 18:15-18 have been completed. The Logical, Biblical and Christian thing to do is not to keep arguing in a pointelss battle, but to “Tell It To The Church” and abide by the decision of The Church as Jesus instructs us to do.

Christ knew these things would happen. They began even while the apostles were still with us and one example is recorded in Acts 15.
Jesus set up an authoritative body to deal with these things.

You deny this authority as you have been taught to - Protestants have been denying this authority since the days of Luther and Calvin. I trust God will judge you in that light.
I accept this authority as I have been taught to. I trust God will judge me in that light.

God is just. I will Trust Him, and His Church.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

So, you think God’s “Law of Love” is different than the ten commandments?

Jesus said to obey the pharasees because they were for the most part telling the people to keep the commandments of God. The CC teaches us that the Sabbath commandment has been changed and we no longer have to keep God’s commandment’s. Commandments that I have pointed out to you will be kept by God’s people throughout eternity. Christ gave no authority to change any of God’s law. What He gave them authority to do was “to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Which are the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Thereby binding them to heaven through His word or not preaching His words to them and loosing them to the kingdom. I explained this all before . Seems like we’re going in circles.

I know we are going in circles which is why I’m tired of arguing and wish to **obey Christ **and submit our difference to The Church for resolution in accordance with His instruction in Mt 18:15-18.

I began to respond to the other things written in this post but found I could not without losing charity. It is just so much re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-buttal - ad nauseum…

The fact remains that all of this, from the question of the Sabbath, to the Real presence in the Eucharist to Baptism of infants, to OSAS, to Faith alone, to any and every Doctrinal issue needs to be looked at and addressed, and many already have, in humility by an authoritative body - an authoritative Church. The fact that you cannot, or will not see this saddens me profoundly.

May God soon guide into the light.

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I know we are going in circles which is why I’m tired of arguing and wish to **obey Christ **and submit our difference to The Church for resolution in accordance with His instruction in Mt 18:15-18.

I began to respond to the other things written in this post but found I could not without losing charity. It is just so much re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-buttal - ad nauseum…

The fact remains that all of this, from the question of the Sabbath, to the Real presence in the Eucharist to Baptism of infants, to OSAS, to Faith alone, to any and every Doctrinal issue needs to be looked at and addressed, and many already have, in humility by an authoritative body - an authoritative Church. The fact that you cannot, or will not see this saddens me profoundly.

May God soon guide into the light.

Peace
James

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

[benidict]

:grouphug: my hope for someday. and i hope we can do more than just hurl verses at one another. thats just the easy way out. peace

 

[JRKH]

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Thank you for that clarification but it means nothing in the ability to resolve our differences. My Bible also contains 1 Cor. When I read this I too see that We have “The Spirit of God”.
So “you” have the "Spirit of God, and “I” have the “Spirit of God” yet we disagree. Who ever reads this in faith will see the same thing and believe tha tthe spirit of God is with him, or with his community. Yet we know that one of us is wrong.
Sorry but that is just the way it is.
Simply tossing out the bible verses does nothing to resolve the issue.
Resolution of these types of issues requires a humble submission to “The Church” as called for in Mt 18.

The early Church had to deal with these things as well - arguments over doctrine and practice.
Many Many councils, of prayerful godly men, have been called over the centuries to deal with the various issues confronting God’s Church. From the Council of Jerusalem in Acts, to Nicea to Carthage and Hippo to Florence, To Trent to Vatican II, the Church has repeatedly met either in whole or in part to deal with doctrinal disagreements. These councils also, could read 1 Cor and perhaps did. Then they prayed for the Guidance of the Holy Spirit and made decisions.
For those who’s positions were not upheld, they submitted their wills in humble obedience to God and to His Church in council, for the sake of the unity of His Church. They submitted just as the Judiazers submitted in Acts after the decision at the Council of Jerusalem.

So - While your quote from 1 cor in very nice, it does nothing to resolve the issue because it’s demonstration that “We” have the “Spirit of God” applies equally to you to me to the Holy Father in Rome.

Mt 18:15-18 stands as the best and only way to heal the wounds in the body of Christ.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

:grouphug: my hope for someday. and i hope we can do more than just hurl verses at one another. thats just the easy way out. peace

Amen to that.

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Thank you for that clarification but it means nothing in the ability to resolve our differences.

Romans 8
**1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **

**2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. **

**3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 3:4
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

**John 14:15
15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. **

 

[JRKH]

Romans 8:1-39
**1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **

**2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **
…

(Snipped for length)

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 3:4
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

**John 14:15
15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. **

And again you offer no resolution to our differences.
You believe you are following a Spirit guided interpretation of the Bible.
I believe I am following a Spirit guided interpretation of the Bible.

A continuation of quoting Bible verses by itself does no good.
Acts 8:
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
He invited Phillip, a man, and a sinner, up with him to interpret the scriptures.

And if you wish to counter with the Eunuch was not a believer and so did not have the spirit, consider this:

The Judaizers believed they were “Spirit Guided” when they came to Antioch. St Paul believed he was “Spirit Guided” in His opposition to the Judaizers at Antioch. The matter had to be settled by Church council - a council of sinful men who, none the less, through prayer and humility came to a decision in which one group was found to be correct and the other in error.

It all comes down to Humility and Authority. In other words, to Mt 18

Peace
James

 

[me_again]

me again;6688990:

You are touting traditional SDA doctrine that tells you that that particular scripture isn’t referring to weekly sabbaths. Are you going to trust an SDA doctrine that was developed based on a false date-setting prophecy from 1844? Or are you going to research what the church fathers taught from the Apostles onward? :knight2:

Not at all brother. Let’s look at them a little closer.

**14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; **

Richard, you’ve made a distinction between the 10 commandments and all of the other Jewish laws and ordinances. The question is**:**

Were the 10 commandments, as well as the rest of the Jewish laws, nailed to the cross? And are they replaced by faith in the resurrection of Jesus, along with His request for believers to obey the new commandment, the law of love, upon which all the other commandments were predicated? The answer is yes.

Richard, choose the best answer**:** Which is greater**:*** Nailing the 10 commandments to the cross?
.

• Or nailing the Finger that wrote the 10 commandments to the cross?

To put it bluntly**: The Finger of God, which wrote the 10 commandments, was nailed to the cross**.

Subsequent to the nailing of the Finger of God to the cross, the Christians began celebrating the resurrection of Christ Jesus on the Lord’s Day, which is also known as Sunday, which is the day He rose from the dead. The other nine commandments are moral laws of love that we should unequivocally keep.

The Saturday sabbath was a specific sign between God and the Jews**;** the Sunday resurrection is a celebratory service where Christians drink the blood of Jesus and eat His flesh in remembrance of Him.

This is a very hard thing for you to swallow. However, Jesus is the Creator of the universe and He made the rules.

 

[Javl]

Richard:

I admire your and the SDA zeal to obey the commandments of God, but I reject your efforts to bring the rest of us under bondage. For we “are not under the law but under grace” ( Romans 6:14 ). If you and the SDA fail to recognize that the law of the New Testament is love for God and for one another and that it fulfills and supercedes all previous embodiments of divine principle, then it’s a clear issue. You all speak like a “noisy gong” or a clanging cymbal, because you do not give precedence and supremacy to the new and great commandment given us by Jesus: “to love one another as I have loved you”.

Instead of your belief that the law must be “kept” ( for is was for the Jews alone ) as a sign of obedience to God, Jesus ( who IS God ) teaches that the Christian obeys God when he obeys the supreme commandment of love. This teaching is reiterated by Paul who wrote to the Galatians that “All the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self” ( Gal. 5:14 ). Obviously if we love our neighbors as ourselves, we do so because we love God with all our hearts, souls, and minds. If we do not love God, we cannot love our neighbors as ourselves. Then, on this one great commandment rests the whole law and in all its aspects.

Also we do not believe in, nor accept, the SDA statement that we lose our salvation if we do not obey the law, since our salvation depends solely upon our love of and for God. Our salvation is a gift of God by grace alone.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem