Seventh Day Adventists & Soul Sleep

[Marsha_Adams]

It must be so much more depressing for an SDA when someone dies. To think I simply cease to exist at death is not a good feeling.

When I was an SDA, my mother and my 12 year old niece died (one in January, the other in December of the same year). We went to the funeral, and then subsequently visited the grave sites. I remember standing there and feeling the emptiness of those graves radiating from the earth. It didn’t bother me, because as an SDA I knew they were sleeping the death of sleep.

Nearly five years ago (I became Catholic in 1981) my best friend in the whole world died. She and I had met in the Legion of Mary, and subsequently bought a house together. There was the funeral, and then subsequently I visited the grave. Guess what? I stood beside the grave and felt the emptiness of it radiating from the earth. It didn’t bother me, because as a Catholic, I knew that she was in heaven with the saints praising and glorifying God. (THis is pretty much a certainty because I had a Gregorian Mass said for her.)

The point is, no it isn’t too depressing for SDAs because they figure the next thing the person knows he/she will be caught up in the sky with Jesus heaven bound.

Marsha

 

[jschwehm]

The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the SDAs have similar views on the soul sleep. You guys might find my podcast at the link below helpful as well:

catholicxjw.blogspot.com/2006/07/soul-is-immortal.html

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com

 

[JoeyWarren]

Two simple questions for SDA brothers,

Revelation 6:9-11

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

How did those people get into heaven under God’s altar?

The SDAs reply:

Aren’t they all supposed to be trapped in Abraham’s Lap (Luke 16)
how did they get away from Abraham to scoot under the altar???

OR maybe - just maybe - this is figuratively language and the saints
are NOT all bundled together huddled under the altar in heaven.

Maybe just maybe - it is symbolic language being used in Revelation!!

What a concept!

 

[JoeyWarren]

Ephesians 4:7-13

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.” 9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Who were the captives in Jesus’ train, and where did they go?

The SDAs reply:

Read Matt 27 -

MANY who were in the tombs came out - at the resurrection of Christ.

Matt 27
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who
had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they
entered the holy city and appeared to many.

 

[ahimsaman72]

It must be so much more depressing for an SDA when someone dies. To think I simply cease to exist at death is not a good feeling.

why is it depressing?

if the belief is that they will one day be raised to eternal life, why is that a depressing thought? Why is the thought of your loved one living right now in heaven as opposed to sleeping any better?

Peace…

 

[Marsha_Adams]

why is it depressing?

if the belief is that they will one day be raised to eternal life, why is that a depressing thought? Why is the thought of your loved one living right now in heaven as opposed to sleeping any better?

Peace…

Well, think of some loved one you have lost and still mourn.

Now imagine that dear one cold, dead, decomposing in a box and that is all there is of him. Someday Jesus will come and resurrect him, but until then he is just dead and rotting. There is nothing you can do for him and nothing that he can do for you.

Now imagine that dear one in the presence of God, praising and gloriffying His Holy Name forever. Or in heaven’s antechamber, purgatory, suffering - but confident in his salvation. You can pray for him and he can pray for you. His body may be decomposing in the ground awaiting the resurrection, but he is not gone.

SDAs do not find this depressing, but that is because they don’t know any better.

Marsha

 

[ahimsaman72]

Well, think of some loved one you have lost and still mourn.

Now imagine that dear one cold, dead, decomposing in a box and that is all there is of him. Someday Jesus will come and resurrect him, but until then he is just dead and rotting. There is nothing you can do for him and nothing that he can do for you.

Now imagine that dear one in the presence of God, praising and gloriffying His Holy Name forever. Or in heaven’s antechamber, purgatory, suffering - but confident in his salvation. You can pray for him and he can pray for you. His body may be decomposing in the ground awaiting the resurrection, but he is not gone.

SDAs do not find this depressing, but that is because they don’t know any better.

Marsha

Well, dear Marsha, is there any difference between my dead loved one decomposing in the ground and your dead loved one decomposing in the ground? The only difference is that one is enjoying heaven now, while the other will enjoy heaven later.

We all must go the way of the decomposing body. That’s a fact of life. Who cares if the body decomposes and becomes ashes? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. To dust we shall all return. I find it laughable that you use the phrase, “they don’t know any better”.

They don’t need pity. They need to be respected for who they are.

Peace…

 

[Marsha_Adams]

We all must go the way of the decomposing body. That’s a fact of life. Who cares if the body decomposes and becomes ashes? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. To dust we shall all return. I find it laughable that you use the phrase, “they don’t know any better”.

They don’t need pity. They need to be respected for who they are.

Peace…

Ahimsaman:

Of course everyone’s body will decompose (unless they are one of the incorruptibles) but the body is nothing. The soul remains and so we have not been separated from our loved ones. For SDAs until the resurrection, the decomposing body is all they have.

Don’t forget, I was an SDA for 31 years before I converted Catholic, so I know how much pity they need.

Marsha

 

[ahimsaman72]

Ahimsaman:

Of course everyone’s body will decompose (unless they are one of the incorruptibles) but the body is nothing. The soul remains and so we have not been separated from our loved ones. For SDAs until the resurrection, the decomposing body is all they have.

Don’t forget, I was an SDA for 31 years before I converted Catholic, so I know how much pity they need.

Marsha

The body was a special creation by God that he breathed life into and man “became a living soul” because of the breath of God. How does it make sense that the “soul” has not been separated from loved ones, but the body has? Isn’t that reversed? If you believe this separate soul exists and is out of the body and in heaven, isn’t it geographically farther away than a decomposing body?

They don’t need your pity and it’s a shame you feel that way. You should re-think this attitude.

Peace…

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Ahimsaman:

If you had a friend who moved to Taiwan, you would miss him, but you would not mourn him as if he were dead. Geography as you so quaintly put it has very little to do with the matter.

God is eternal, therefore His breath is eternal, therefore when He breathed His eternal breath into Adam man became an eternal living soul. When man dies that Eternal soul returns to God. Read your Bible.

There is not a day that goes by that I do not thank God from the bottom of my heart that He lead me to His Church and out of the darkness of Adventism.

Marsha

 

[MarysRoses]

The body was a special creation by God that he breathed life into and man “became a living soul” because of the breath of God. How does it make sense that the “soul” has not been separated from loved ones, but the body has? Isn’t that reversed? If you believe this separate soul exists and is out of the body and in heaven, isn’t it geographically farther away than a decomposing body?

They don’t need your pity and it’s a shame you feel that way. You should re-think this attitude.

Peace…

Soul Sleep is a serious error, not just a different perspective.

Adventists believe that the body and soul are inseperable, and that death would be an eternal end of existence unless God intervenes and resurrects individuals bodily, returning their breath so that they may once again be a “living soul”.

““Originally Posted by servus
I think you answered your own question The soul and body are inseperable. Upon death we cease to be a soul, but become as were were before God created us, that is, a mixture of Carbon, Silicon, and other elements which compose dust.””

The Adventist view: Body+breath = living soul (living being).
When someone dies they cease to exist except as a memory in the mind of loved ones (and God) until they are resurrected.

As I have posted before, this contradicts the clear teaching of St. Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say… and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

St. Paul cannot have had the Adventist view in mind, as he clearly says we can be absent from the body. So our essential personhood, or soul, CAN and DOES exist apart from the body. St. Paul describes our state ‘at home in the body’ and ‘absent from the body’. He also describes the state of being absent from the body as ‘at home with the Lord’.

All of the various proof texts refering to ‘sleep’ cannot overcome this verse. This verse taken in context with the rest of the New Testament is fatal to the Adventist theories about the state of the dead.

When I was an Adventist, I remember a sermon by an Adventist Pastor where he was seemingly taking great fun in telling the congregation that Jesus’s Mother Mary was dead and mouldering in her grave, oblivious to the millions asking her for her prayers. He really got into a morbid description of what happened to her in her grave, and how deluded people were for believing she could help them.

This is why this flawed teaching is serious. It denies the Communion of Saints.

We are one in Jesus. We are not seperated from our brothers and sisters who have died. The Church Triumphant in heaven prays for us and intercedes for us. I’m sure t hey take great interest in those of us who have not joined them yet. The Church Militant here on earth can rely on the help and intercession of those of us (the Church) already in Heaven. The Expectant Church needs the prayers and love of both the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant as they are prepared for Heaven. This interdependence and seamlessness of the One Holy Church is fractured by the Adventist ideas of soul sleep.

Communion at a Catholic funeral is incredibly touching. By uniting ourselves with Christ in Holy Communion we are also reminded our loved one is united with Christ, so we are also uniting ourselves with them and with the whole Church. That is one aspect of what it means to be ‘in communion’.

We truly receive his Body and Blood in communion, and we are also united with him and with the entire Church.

We are not memories in the mind of God when we die, as Christians, we remain living, loving, praying members of the Church Jesus founded and gave his life for; the Mystical Body and also the Bride of Christ. We don’t give that up to moulder forgotten in a grave for a few centuries, then resume our place.

I also pity the Christians who have forgotten or never knew their inheritance, and by so doing deprive themselves of the help and comfort that is available to them if they would only know to ask!

MarysRoses

 

[ahimsaman72]

Ahimsaman:

If you had a friend who moved to Taiwan, you would miss him, but you would not mourn him as if he were dead. Geography as you so quaintly put it has very little to do with the matter.

This is not an applicable analogy. Your loved one has died even if their soul has moved on to heaven. You can’t see them, you can’t hear them. All you can do is pray for them. The same is true for those who have died in the body and their soul is sleeping. You can’t see or touch either one. Don’t you mourn the loved one or friend who has died?

God is eternal, therefore His breath is eternal, therefore when He breathed His eternal breath into Adam man became an eternal living soul. When man dies that Eternal soul returns to God. Read your Bible.

There is not a day that goes by that I do not thank God from the bottom of my heart that He lead me to His Church and out of the darkness of Adventism.

Marsha

I’ve read the Bible, thank you. It is not as definitive on this matter as you seem to think. It can be interpreted differently by different people. The difference is that you have Tradition to define the matter for you. Don’t appeal to the Bible if that’s your proof.

Show me the Scripture that definitively defines this that you speak of and I’ll show you the Scriptures that show otherwise. I’m not an Adventist myself, so I’m playing Devil’s advocate here.

Adventists are some of the most godly and morally competent people I know and who love God with all their hearts. It is not a darkness as you seem to think it is. It may be for you, but that doesn’t mean it applies to everyone else. For many, it is a good path that leads them to God.

Read your Catechism.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Soul Sleep is a serious error, not just a different perspective.

According to you and the Church.

Adventists believe that the body and soul are inseperable, and that death would be an eternal end of existence unless God intervenes and resurrects individuals bodily, returning their breath so that they may once again be a “living soul”.

““Originally Posted by servus
I think you answered your own question The soul and body are inseperable. Upon death we cease to be a soul, but become as were were before God created us, that is, a mixture of Carbon, Silicon, and other elements which compose dust.””

The Adventist view: Body+breath = living soul (living being).
When someone dies they cease to exist except as a memory in the mind of loved ones (and God) until they are resurrected.

As I have posted before, this contradicts the clear teaching of St. Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say… and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

This is a weak proof text as you have one sentence that could mean what you think it means. However, if you compare Scripture with Scripture it is not a clear idea.

St. Paul cannot have had the Adventist view in mind, as he clearly says we can be absent from the body. So our essential personhood, or soul, CAN and DOES exist apart from the body. St. Paul describes our state ‘at home in the body’ and ‘absent from the body’. He also describes the state of being absent from the body as ‘at home with the Lord’.

All of the various proof texts refering to ‘sleep’ cannot overcome this verse. This verse taken in context with the rest of the New Testament is fatal to the Adventist theories about the state of the dead.

So, you are saying that one verse which implies your view trumps “all the various proof texts referring to sleep”? So, that’s one against many. Why take one verse above the rest that could show otherwise?

When I was an Adventist, I remember a sermon by an Adventist Pastor where he was seemingly taking great fun in telling the congregation that Jesus’s Mother Mary was dead and mouldering in her grave, oblivious to the millions asking her for her prayers. He really got into a morbid description of what happened to her in her grave, and how deluded people were for believing she could help them.

This is why this flawed teaching is serious. It denies the Communion of Saints.

And why is communion of the Saints such an important teaching? What difference does it make for you personally?

We are one in Jesus. We are not seperated from our brothers and sisters who have died. The Church Triumphant in heaven prays for us and intercedes for us. I’m sure t hey take great interest in those of us who have not joined them yet. The Church Militant here on earth can rely on the help and intercession of those of us (the Church) already in Heaven. The Expectant Church needs the prayers and love of both the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant as they are prepared for Heaven. This interdependence and seamlessness of the One Holy Church is fractured by the Adventist ideas of soul sleep.

Why do you need the prayers of departed ones so much?

Communion at a Catholic funeral is incredibly touching. By uniting ourselves with Christ in Holy Communion we are also reminded our loved one is united with Christ, so we are also uniting ourselves with them and with the whole Church. That is one aspect of what it means to be ‘in communion’.

But you can’t see them or touch them or talk to them face to face or hear their voice. So, how is this different than a memory that someone can hold onto or a picture?

We truly receive his Body and Blood in communion, and we are also united with him and with the entire Church.

We are not memories in the mind of God when we die, as Christians, we remain living, loving, praying members of the Church Jesus founded and gave his life for; the Mystical Body and also the Bride of Christ. We don’t give that up to moulder forgotten in a grave for a few centuries, then resume our place.

I also pity the Christians who have forgotten or never knew their inheritance, and by so doing deprive themselves of the help and comfort that is available to them if they would only know to ask!

MarysRoses

I guess I still don’t see the significance of others in heaven helping me. During my short time on earth, I have relied on God himself, myself, my family (living), friends and co-workers to help me and pray for me. I don’t see how communion of the saints makes your problems go away. That’s just me.

Peace…

 

[JoeyWarren]

the following verses disprove that the body and soul are inseparable.

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not **give up the ghost **when I came out of the belly?

Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

Jer 15:9 She that hath borne seven languisheth: she hath given up the ghost; her sun is gone down while it was yet day: she hath been ashamed and confounded: and the residue of them will I deliver to the sword before their enemies, saith the LORD.

Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Gen 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Lam 1:19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mar 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[YoungAdventist]

I hope this clears everything up for my fellow catholic brothers and sisters about the condition of the dead. Please read this with an open heart and do not close yourself to these teachings.

First of all, dust (or body) + breath of life = living soul.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The following texts helps you understand where your breath is and where it goes

Daniel 5:23 - …and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

(Jesus Death)Matthew 27:50 - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (returned his breath)

More texts that might help you understand this concept are : Acts 17:25 (He giveth to all life, and breath), Ezekiel 37.5 (To dry bones, breath enters to make live), Psalms 146:4 (Death, absence of breath), Daniel 5:23 (Breath in hand of GOD), Genesis 25:8 (Abraham gave up ghost and died).

The following texts proves that the dead know nothing and that they are sleeping:

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 14:12, 21 - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
(21) His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

Psalms 146:4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

John 11: 11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And MarysRoses your St. Paul wrote this one. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Notice how he says asleep all those times, gets you thinking huh?

(Right after Christ’s Death)Matthew 27:52 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

(Death = rest and peace) Isaiah 57:1, 2 - The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.(2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

Genesis 3:17-19 - And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;(18) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This clearly states that we are dust and that we return to dust when we die and GOD’s breath is returned to him, we don’t end up in heaven or hell or limbo LOL JoeyWarren.

(speaking of the 2nd coming) Isaiah 26:19 - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Therefore we can conclude that the dead know nothing, that they rest in the ground, and that their breath returns to the source (being GOD) awaiting the 2nd coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

As you can see we Seventh-Day Adventists only believe in the bible, so if you mock what we stand for you are only mocking GOD’s word.

GOD BLESS

p.s if you have any questions about our faith plz do not hesitate to ask i will be more than happy to answer them for u:thumbsup: .

 

[JoeyWarren]

The body dwells in dust.

The soul dwells in heaven or in hell.

SDA are stuck in the Old Testament like the Jews.

Lazarus and the rich man dialogue: If their souls are asleep as you contend then Lazarus and Abraham could not have carried on a conversation.

 

[adventistnomore]

From an article on my website (diesdomini.com):

One must avoid reading a particular theology into a given word. Throughout scripture, the word “sleep” is used as a metaphor (or euphemism) for physical death (cf. Jn 12:11-14). However, the extent to which this metaphor describes the experience of death remains a matter of personal interpretation. Some thnetophsychists [including Adventists] exploit the metaphor as evidence that death is an unconscious state, excluding any thought or experience; but sleep is endowed a certain dimension of thought and experience in dreaming. Accordingly, the interpreter risks a selective interpretation of the metaphor—arbitrarily relating some elements of the sleep experience to death, but not others.

This caution is especially pertinent considering the fact that many surrounding cultures (Egyptian, Greek, Roman; etc.) used the same metaphor for death as a phenomenological comparison. Sleep seemed an apt image of death, given the resemblance of a motionless sleeper to a corpse (cf. Ovid, Amores 2.9.41; Cicero, De Senectute 22.80; Homer, Odyssey 13.79-81; Hesiod, Works and Days 116). Of note, the popular use of the metaphor within these cultures did not exclude prevailing afterlife cosmologies. In fact, a connection was often made between the afterlife and dreaming in these cultures (cf. the “free soul” in proto-hellenic thought that left the body both in sleep and death).

Accordingly, an exegete cannot assume that the use of the metaphor in Biblical literature excludes the possible existence of an intermediate state (as is sometimes suggested). The evidence is not substantive.

 

[tennisartist85]

This is a bit of a sticky situation: I’m a Catholic currently in a serious relationshiop with an Adventist. Her family is pressing hard for me to take their stance on many issues, including this one. Actually, right now I’m not convinced either way. At least scripturally.
Can someone actually go through the sleep texts and interpret them in a Catholic perspective, I have yet to see that actually done.
Also, her Mom pointed out, what is the purpose of the second coming if we are all in heaven, especially when we say “he comes to judge the living and the dead.” This puzzled me quite a bit, so I’m looking for a response if anyone has one. Help would be greatly appreciated because I’m receiving alot of flak right now. Thanks!

 

[MarysRoses]

Here’s a few quick links.

theotokos.co.za/adventism/dead.html
theotokos.co.za/adventism/index.html
catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp

I’m a former Adventist. I gave up adventism my senior year while I was a theology major at one of their colleges.

I will be happy to answer any questions. I’m covering at my job 7 days a week for a while, so i’m busy, but I will get back to you.

I’ve been Catholic now for over 20 years! There are many former Adventists, now catholic on the forums.

My mom is still Adventist, and I still get the ‘flack’ myself.

Take care!

MarysRoses

 

[tennisartist85]

Thanks Mary, it’s alot to wade through, and exactly what I needed. Much obliged. I’ll post back if I need any more help. Just pray that our Bible studies go well . Thanks!