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tennisartist85
Guest
*Marys (sorry)
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Please list the versus that implies sleep, all if you wish and I imagine even those the SDA have taken out of context.
And why is communion of the Saints such an important teaching? What difference does it make for you personally?
Well for one it disproves your SDA teaching of soul sleep and two it gives us hope that we too can one day be saints.
Why do you need the prayers of departed ones so much?
Well since we disagree with you on soul sleep bc ie it not biblical, the Church teaches that the saints and angels in heaven can hear our prayers, if someone is in heaven right now with God, wouldnt it be great if that person can pray for us, we are one family even us Catholics and you SDA one family so we love each other even when we disagree, and we pray for each other, why do we ask our friends and family to pray for us? We are doing the same thing but we beleive in the body of Christ, which means His Church on earth as well as in heaven again one family one church which we call Catholic.
I guess I still don’t see the significance of others in heaven helping me. During my short time on earth, I have relied on God himself, myself, my family (living), friends and co-workers to help me and pray for me. I don’t see how communion of the saints makes your problems go away. That’s just me.
Peace…
And I guess I dont understand your thought process either, I have never met God face to face, I was not one that was alive durring the time of Christ or leading up to that time, yet God from the beggining has never interfered, neither did Christ if you think about it. We all have certain roles to play and God nor Christ will interfere with that even when we are wrong, you might believe that the earth is less than 7 thousand years but that fosil in my backyard can prove that theory wrong, God was the creator but he allowed creation to take place in an awesome and exact way which I call science. Adam and Eve had ancesters but those ancesters did not have an eternal soul, that is what God breathed into Adam, an eternal soul. Adam comes from adama which means from the ground, adam also means man not male or female but man kind human with a diferent eternal soul than prior to adam which they were bipedals but they did not have an eternal soul
Sorry about the adam and eve thing sometimes i have to get up on my soap box
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tennisartist85
Guest
Texan in DC, Most of the texts mentioned can be found under the second entry in this entire thread, by Servus. One should apply to Lazarus. Thanks for the help
PS- Texas rules!
PS- Texas rules!
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JoeyWarren
Guest
The best rebuttal against the issue that the soul and body are inseparable is:
1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
IT sort kills it doesn’t it?
1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
IT sort kills it doesn’t it?
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tennisartist85
Guest
That does help quite a bit. Thanks Joey. Any Adventist thoughts on the above quote? Do you believe that “soul” here is a reference to the “breath of life” that God breaths into us? Just curious.
I don’t believe that this quote actually proves the Catholic stance, nor do I believe that the texts from Servus prove the Adventist stance. The one Catholic perspective that I do believe is important for ALL to adopt in light of these passages is acceptance of differing perspectives, because as you can see, there is no clear-cut answer like some I know want to believe.
I don’t believe that this quote actually proves the Catholic stance, nor do I believe that the texts from Servus prove the Adventist stance. The one Catholic perspective that I do believe is important for ALL to adopt in light of these passages is acceptance of differing perspectives, because as you can see, there is no clear-cut answer like some I know want to believe.
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tennisartist85
Guest
Oh, and Joey, where is the mentioning of a conversation between Lazarus and Abraham? I’d love to have that text Thanks again
Thanks again
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Luke, Chapter 16.Oh, and Joey, where is the mentioning of a conversation between Lazarus and Abraham? I’d love to have that text
How could their souls be asleep if they are carrying on a conversation( the rich man and Father Abraham )?
The defense against this? It’s a parable.
Is it really a parable? Jesus have given us 2 proper names. Lazarus and Father Abraham.
Jesus is talking about a real event, that happened earlier.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
TennisArtist:
If the SDAs are correct, and the word spirit/soul means nothing more than breath, the Holy Spirit, third person of the Trinity immediately becomes nothing more than God’s breath and the Triune God becomes a BInary God.
That is the only logical result of their belief.
I was born and raised an SDA, before converting to Catholicism, so trust me on this – go find yourself a nice Catholic girl. If you marry this SDA woman, and she does not become Catholic, she and her children will look at you as an idolator because you worship Mary. Your wife and children will view you as having the Mark of the Beast because you worship on Sunday. They will pity and fear you because you have allied yourself with the Whore of Babylon and if you do not convert to The True Church (Adventism) they will know that sooner or later you will betray them to the Anti-Christ to be persecuted and martyred. The only way you will ever have any peace or relationship with your own wife and children will be to fall away from Catholicism and be unchurched or to convert to SDAism.
My father was unchurched and my mother and sister and I pitied him all our lives (until we left home and the denomination) because we were saved and he wasn’t – not because he wasn’t a Christian but because he wasn’t an Adventist. Don’t let that happen to you.
Have you tried to give this young woman instruction in your faith?
Marsha
If the SDAs are correct, and the word spirit/soul means nothing more than breath, the Holy Spirit, third person of the Trinity immediately becomes nothing more than God’s breath and the Triune God becomes a BInary God.
That is the only logical result of their belief.
I was born and raised an SDA, before converting to Catholicism, so trust me on this – go find yourself a nice Catholic girl. If you marry this SDA woman, and she does not become Catholic, she and her children will look at you as an idolator because you worship Mary. Your wife and children will view you as having the Mark of the Beast because you worship on Sunday. They will pity and fear you because you have allied yourself with the Whore of Babylon and if you do not convert to The True Church (Adventism) they will know that sooner or later you will betray them to the Anti-Christ to be persecuted and martyred. The only way you will ever have any peace or relationship with your own wife and children will be to fall away from Catholicism and be unchurched or to convert to SDAism.
My father was unchurched and my mother and sister and I pitied him all our lives (until we left home and the denomination) because we were saved and he wasn’t – not because he wasn’t a Christian but because he wasn’t an Adventist. Don’t let that happen to you.
Have you tried to give this young woman instruction in your faith?
Marsha
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tennisartist85
Guest
Joey, that’s a great passage, thanks. It also rebukes the use of Lazarus’ awakening from death to support the sleep theory.
But I think even more convincing than the fact that he and Abraham have a conversation (because one might argue that this occurs after the second coming) is that the rich man asks that Lazarus may return to his house on earth to warn his brothers so they won’t make the same mistake. Like I think you said, no one can argue that Jesus would use a “parrable” with a faulty premise, nor with real people.
This passage also brings up the issue of eternal damnation vs. the idea of a hasty death by fire that ends with the individual being completely wiped out of existence. Just something to think about.
Great stuff, best support I’ve seen so far. Thanks
But I think even more convincing than the fact that he and Abraham have a conversation (because one might argue that this occurs after the second coming) is that the rich man asks that Lazarus may return to his house on earth to warn his brothers so they won’t make the same mistake. Like I think you said, no one can argue that Jesus would use a “parrable” with a faulty premise, nor with real people.
This passage also brings up the issue of eternal damnation vs. the idea of a hasty death by fire that ends with the individual being completely wiped out of existence. Just something to think about.
Great stuff, best support I’ve seen so far. Thanks
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tennisartist85
Guest
Marsha,
I do truly appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, and *sigh, all that you’ve mentioned I have worried about, and so has she. At first we were both anxious to persuade the other of our own views, but all attempts always end in argument. If I have persuaded her of anything as a result of these discussions/explosive arguments it’s that there really IS more than one way to interpret the scripture. It’s funny, but it seems that where Catholics and SDAs diverge is simply in discerning what is meant as truth and what is meant as parrable. Well, that and how much you can read into Daniel and Revelations
Anyways, right now children is the only thing that worries us. She wouldn’t want them going to Mass on Sundays; I don’t want them thinking the world was created roughly 6,000 yrs ago.
Currently I am taking Bible study classes at her church, which is good because their studies are meant to show why their views differ from the Catholic church. Unfortunately, I don’t think the Catholic church has bible studies that answer SDA specific questions regarding our faith, so I’m making my own.
Could you explain more thoroughly the idea of the binary trinity. It seems like a great point, but I don’t think I fully understand it. Thanks for all help and support Marsha. Hope all is better with your father now
I do truly appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, and *sigh, all that you’ve mentioned I have worried about, and so has she. At first we were both anxious to persuade the other of our own views, but all attempts always end in argument. If I have persuaded her of anything as a result of these discussions/explosive arguments it’s that there really IS more than one way to interpret the scripture. It’s funny, but it seems that where Catholics and SDAs diverge is simply in discerning what is meant as truth and what is meant as parrable. Well, that and how much you can read into Daniel and Revelations
Anyways, right now children is the only thing that worries us. She wouldn’t want them going to Mass on Sundays; I don’t want them thinking the world was created roughly 6,000 yrs ago.
Currently I am taking Bible study classes at her church, which is good because their studies are meant to show why their views differ from the Catholic church. Unfortunately, I don’t think the Catholic church has bible studies that answer SDA specific questions regarding our faith, so I’m making my own.
Could you explain more thoroughly the idea of the binary trinity. It seems like a great point, but I don’t think I fully understand it. Thanks for all help and support Marsha. Hope all is better with your father now
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
TennisArtist:
To support soul sleep, SDAs say that whenever the Bible talks about the “spirit” returning to God, it only means “breath”. Therefore, logically, when we speak of the Holy Spirit, we would only be referring to the holy “breath” of God. Now instead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - the Triune God, we would logically be left with the Father and the Son and their breath.
The early Adventists, like Joseph Bates, et. al., are described as semi-arians. They did not believe in the Trinity considering it to be a Popish doctrine.
Do you really want to have children with someone who would undercut your every attempt to raise them in the Faith?
She should find herself a nice Adventist boy.
Marsha
To support soul sleep, SDAs say that whenever the Bible talks about the “spirit” returning to God, it only means “breath”. Therefore, logically, when we speak of the Holy Spirit, we would only be referring to the holy “breath” of God. Now instead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - the Triune God, we would logically be left with the Father and the Son and their breath.
The early Adventists, like Joseph Bates, et. al., are described as semi-arians. They did not believe in the Trinity considering it to be a Popish doctrine.
Do you really want to have children with someone who would undercut your every attempt to raise them in the Faith?
She should find herself a nice Adventist boy.
Marsha
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amills
Guest
Tennisartist,
When looking at the Adventist message you must look at the whole ball of wax so to speak. I think that looking at the entire picture is the best substantiation of all for denying soul sleep. Please consider the following points.
When looking at the Adventist message you must look at the whole ball of wax so to speak. I think that looking at the entire picture is the best substantiation of all for denying soul sleep. Please consider the following points.
- Ellen G White is considered a prophet by the church. However there are many many problems with her writings including Plagarism, false prophecies, distortion of history (See Waldenses for an example she claims they were Sabbath keepers and never were), gross lies about Catholic beliefs (outright distortions - for example saying Catholics eliminated the second commandment) Adventist claim she was human so there may be human error but when questioned how do you determine what was human and what was prophecy they can give not an answer.
- The belief in investigative judgement is totally not supported by scripture dispite the fact that they claim to be sola scriptura.
- Changing belief system. # 28 I was added around year 2000 at general conference.
- Beliefs are determined by majority vote so to speak at the General Conference.
- False claims regarding Pope - they have even made up titles for him to fit their discription of the anti-christ and been shown to be so wrong imperically that they have had to retract the statements.
- Distortion of ECF to try to support their belief in the Sabbath.
- Lies about the Catholic Church - saying we worship idols and Mary and saints when it is not true, distortion of the term infallibility, etc.
- Support for abortion. They claim we don’t know when life begins…
- They list Sola Scriptura as their first belief and then utilize Ellen White writings in addition. I find this contradictory.
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tennisartist85
Guest
Amills, I agree with your point about soul sleep seeming “iffy” since mainstream protestantism rejects it. That was one of the initial concerns that i had. The reply I received about it was that all chronologically successive denominations of protestantism have revealed further truths about God’s plan that previous denominations did not. SDA’s then believe that this lineage of understanding culminates in their personal belief system. At least that’s what the guy said whom I’m taking bible studies with. I suppose I can’t assume based on what one person said. 
Now check this out. This has to be one of the BEST supports I have seen for immediate ascension, using both scriptural reference as well as common sense arguments that supercede interpretation.
letusreason.org/Doct15.htm
begin at about the seventh paragraph, and you’ll find an incredible argument. Enjoy
Now check this out. This has to be one of the BEST supports I have seen for immediate ascension, using both scriptural reference as well as common sense arguments that supercede interpretation.
letusreason.org/Doct15.htm
begin at about the seventh paragraph, and you’ll find an incredible argument. Enjoy
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