M
MarysRoses
Guest
(continued from last post)
Does the Bible ever tell us an untruth?
Before Jesus, the jewish people believed that the dead were in a place they called Sheol.
Adventist “proofs” depend on references to this Jewish belief. This belief was not incorrect, it reflected the reality of the dead BEFORE Jesus came and was resurrected.
Jesus freed the “souls in prison”. If the dead were unconscious and had no souls, no existence what did he free?
I Peter 3:18 etc…
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Can the bible lie? Who were these spirits? (this also shows that spirit does not mean just the physical breath of the body, another adventist teaching)
Also, if only body + breath = soul What about this verse:
(Rev 6:9 NASB) And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
(Rev 6:10 NASB) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
This are souls, crying out to God. They are the dead, not the living on the earth.
How about Lazarus? Was he unconscious? I know Adventists say this is ‘only’ a parable, but if so, its the only one where a person is refered to by name. It would also contain a theological untruth. (according to Adventist doctrine.) Lazarus was dead but could still think, feel concern for the living, and pray (ask) for mercy for the living.
The clearest illustration that the dead are not unconscious (unless the Bible contains untruths) is the story of King Saul and the prophet Samuel.
King Saul went to a woman with a familiar spirit because he wanted to talk to Samuel the prophet who had died. Adventists teach that Samuel actually spoke to a demon, not to the spirit of Samuel. But what does the bible say?
I Samuel ch 28 and following…
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18
Saul knew that it was Samuel… The bible narrator does not correct his impression so its unlikely he was mistaken. The bible then goes on to say: “Samuel said…” Not “a demonic spirit masquerading as Samuel…” Not “the evil spirit said…” Not even
“the spirit” . The Bible text affirms that this is indeed Samuel.
Not only does the bible text treat this shade as the person Samuel, not an imposter, Samuel goes on to make a new prophecy:
19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
Saul was filled with fear… why? "because of Samuel’s words."
Consulting the witch was a great sin. Saul suffered the consequences, but nowhere is there any indication in scripture that this spirit was anything other than the prophet Samuel.
That is one concrete example, strictly from scripture, of the dead communicating with the living.
This kind of communication is very wrong, and Saul was punished. Yet the bible says nothing about Saul talking to a demon posing as Samuel. The bible says that this prophecy is “Samuel’s words”. The Bible explicitly says "Samuel said to Saul…" Furthermore, the prophecy was a true prophecy, happening just as Samuel said. The bible never, anywhere in this passage, identifies the spirit of Samuel as a demon.
Our bodies rest in the ground. Our bodies “sleep”. Our beloved dead no longer have the worries and cares of living on earth. But the spirits (souls) of the righteous dead are safe with Christ. To be dead in Christ is to be PRESENT with him. Not as an unconscious memory in the mind of God… but as a living spirit, enjoying the eternal life promised by Christ. The day will come when these spirits are raised in a glorified body, like Christ.
II Cor 5:6 and following:
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
God Bless,
MarysRoses
Does the Bible ever tell us an untruth?
Before Jesus, the jewish people believed that the dead were in a place they called Sheol.
Adventist “proofs” depend on references to this Jewish belief. This belief was not incorrect, it reflected the reality of the dead BEFORE Jesus came and was resurrected.
Jesus freed the “souls in prison”. If the dead were unconscious and had no souls, no existence what did he free?
I Peter 3:18 etc…
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Can the bible lie? Who were these spirits? (this also shows that spirit does not mean just the physical breath of the body, another adventist teaching)
Also, if only body + breath = soul What about this verse:
(Rev 6:9 NASB) And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
(Rev 6:10 NASB) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
This are souls, crying out to God. They are the dead, not the living on the earth.
How about Lazarus? Was he unconscious? I know Adventists say this is ‘only’ a parable, but if so, its the only one where a person is refered to by name. It would also contain a theological untruth. (according to Adventist doctrine.) Lazarus was dead but could still think, feel concern for the living, and pray (ask) for mercy for the living.
The clearest illustration that the dead are not unconscious (unless the Bible contains untruths) is the story of King Saul and the prophet Samuel.
King Saul went to a woman with a familiar spirit because he wanted to talk to Samuel the prophet who had died. Adventists teach that Samuel actually spoke to a demon, not to the spirit of Samuel. But what does the bible say?
I Samuel ch 28 and following…
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18
Saul knew that it was Samuel… The bible narrator does not correct his impression so its unlikely he was mistaken. The bible then goes on to say: “Samuel said…” Not “a demonic spirit masquerading as Samuel…” Not “the evil spirit said…” Not even
“the spirit” . The Bible text affirms that this is indeed Samuel.
Not only does the bible text treat this shade as the person Samuel, not an imposter, Samuel goes on to make a new prophecy:
19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
Saul was filled with fear… why? "because of Samuel’s words."
Consulting the witch was a great sin. Saul suffered the consequences, but nowhere is there any indication in scripture that this spirit was anything other than the prophet Samuel.
That is one concrete example, strictly from scripture, of the dead communicating with the living.
This kind of communication is very wrong, and Saul was punished. Yet the bible says nothing about Saul talking to a demon posing as Samuel. The bible says that this prophecy is “Samuel’s words”. The Bible explicitly says "Samuel said to Saul…" Furthermore, the prophecy was a true prophecy, happening just as Samuel said. The bible never, anywhere in this passage, identifies the spirit of Samuel as a demon.
Our bodies rest in the ground. Our bodies “sleep”. Our beloved dead no longer have the worries and cares of living on earth. But the spirits (souls) of the righteous dead are safe with Christ. To be dead in Christ is to be PRESENT with him. Not as an unconscious memory in the mind of God… but as a living spirit, enjoying the eternal life promised by Christ. The day will come when these spirits are raised in a glorified body, like Christ.
II Cor 5:6 and following:
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
God Bless,
MarysRoses
