T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, HC
And, if I may add one more item … Christ did this on a THURSDAY!
And, if I may add one more item … Christ did this on a THURSDAY!
- Status
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Hi, HC
And, if I may add one more item … Christ did this on a THURSDAY!
happilycatholic;5704486:
Ah, yes. Good assist Tom!
HC
H
happilycatholic
Guest
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Just to set the record straight this:
*God is responsible for the bible that we have today. The Jews collected the books of the Old Testament, and yes, the early Christian Church collected the books of the New Testament, but they were not Catholics, and would reject much of what the Catholic Church teaches today as apostasy. *
Is not part of my last post. (I’m referring to #317 I believe) I incorrectly positioned the ‘quote’ commands and it was included in my post as if it were my comment. This comment was made by Richard Kastner.
Just wanted to make that clear for any newcomers that may happen by here.
Blessings,
HC
*God is responsible for the bible that we have today. The Jews collected the books of the Old Testament, and yes, the early Christian Church collected the books of the New Testament, but they were not Catholics, and would reject much of what the Catholic Church teaches today as apostasy. *
Is not part of my last post. (I’m referring to #317 I believe) I incorrectly positioned the ‘quote’ commands and it was included in my post as if it were my comment. This comment was made by Richard Kastner.
Just wanted to make that clear for any newcomers that may happen by here.
Blessings,
HC
H
happilycatholic
Guest
H
happilycatholic
Guest
So what are you saying Richard? Are you saying that if we don’t repent and become SDAs and worship the Lord on Saturday that we’ll go to hell?
Well, that’s an extrabiblical condition on salvation that I just don’t read in Scripture. I do however read this:
John 6:53:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
King James Version (KJV)
It’s not too late, come to the Table of Plenty!
(Don’t worry, catholics don’t believe we’re the only ones going to Heaven. Unlike some churches The Church leaves the judgement to God.)
Blessings,
HC
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
Well, again you twist what I am saying to your own purpose. I can see no reason to continue this, what has turned into a debate, rather than a discussion and we both seem to be talking to ourselves. Let me leave you with this. Let’s take a look at your question above. "Are you saying that if we don’t repent and become SDAs and worship the Lord on Saturday that we’ll go to hell?
Well, that’s an extrabiblical condition on salvation that I just don’t read in Scripture."
Jesus says in Jn14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
and
Malachi 3:6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
The commandments talked about in Jn.14:15 are Jesus’ law of love the ten commandments of which the fourth is one.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Malachi 3:6 says the Lord changes not. So that would mean His law which is a reflection of His divine changeless character could not be changed. That would mean man could not eliminate the second that forbids graven images. That he could not change the fourth from 95 words to 8 and thereby eliminating the reference to the creation memorial or that the Sabbath is the seventh day. That would mean he couldn’t split the tenth into two so that you would still come up with ten after the elimination of the 2nd.
No, Jesus said “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” not man’s. Do you think that Jesus is going to let anyone into His heavenly kingdom that doesn’t love Him. Well I don’t want you to accuse me of being judgemental again, but my guess would be NO!!!
So that takes care of the seventh day part of our name and I would guess that even Catholics are looking forward to the second comming of Jesus and that would make them adventists. The repent part of your statement is a given. Nobody will make it to heaven that doesn’t repent.
So, it’s not so extrabiblical after all. Huh?
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Richard,
I am listening to what you say … and I have a comment on an item that appears to be at the heart of this discussion.
The problem comes in when you extrapolate something that you admit is a reflection as having the same qualities. Do not confuse ‘reflection’ with ‘mirror-image’ (which by the way reverses items from their original position! ) Now, to add one more element to this - what we have is our understanding in TIME of God’s Will for us. So, how does this play out in real life.
Let’s go to the very beginning - Genesis and see what is going on. Gen 3:15 - Adam and Eve are confronted by God for their disobedience and God then confronts the Devil in the form of the sperpent. We have the first promise of the Redeemer and we look to (1John 3:8) to get a better idea (in retrospect) of this with, “the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil”.
But, God gives no more details on this point - we go through the entire OT and we have all of these promises of a Redeemer - and it is still so sketchy that the scholars of the Law can tell Herod where the Messiah will be born - but, nothing else. For 30 years no one knows Jesus is the Messiah because His Divine Will chose not to reveal Himself until His appointed time. God’s Plan did not change - only our understanding of it did.
Christ fulfilled everything in the Law - He was the only One to have kept the Law perfectly - He also was the fulfillment of the Law - so much so that He said He was giving us a New Commandment (John 13:34) and that is to love one another. He also raised the bar from the 10 Commandments given to Moses to the Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-12)
3
Blessed are the poor in spirit, 4 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
6
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8
Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
12
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
There is no way you can keep these Beatitudes and: curse God, not worship Him, worship idols, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, murder, theft, and lie. Christ was quite clear about this - He really is in charge of everything, and that also means that He is Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:1-5).
The issue, at least as I appreciate it, can be reduced to the following: Our knowledge of God and His Divine Plan for us is not static but dynamic. God is static in the sense that He does not change - but, He reveals Himself in His Own Special Way to ever age.
Look at it this way, after the Pentecost experience there were many converts from the Jewish faith to those who wanted to follow Christ - they called their religion (according to Saul of Tarsus) “The Way”. We now find that there were some who wanted to keep the OT Law and the Commands of Christ as were being preached by the Apostles - the First Ministers of this new religion.
Circumcision was a big issue:
1.) given by God Himself,
2.) a real sign of the covenant,
3.) not an option, but an obligation for all males claiming to be part of this covenant established between God and Abraham.
And here is St Peter in Acts 15 declaring under the Power and Guidance of the Holy Spirit that circumcision is no longer required. Amazing. Did God change? No. Did He unveil more of His Plan to us at this time? Yes. The analogy given by St Paul is appropriate here = when an infant is born he is given milk - but, as he grows he needs real food. Did the parents love for their child change? No. Did this child’s needs develop and require a change? Yes.
I hope this helps.
God bless
I am listening to what you say … and I have a comment on an item that appears to be at the heart of this discussion.
God does not change - He is forever - from all eternity - Perfection. No argument there.
The problem comes in when you extrapolate something that you admit is a reflection as having the same qualities. Do not confuse ‘reflection’ with ‘mirror-image’ (which by the way reverses items from their original position!
) Now, to add one more element to this - what we have is our understanding in TIME of God’s Will for us. So, how does this play out in real life.Let’s go to the very beginning - Genesis and see what is going on. Gen 3:15 - Adam and Eve are confronted by God for their disobedience and God then confronts the Devil in the form of the sperpent. We have the first promise of the Redeemer and we look to (1John 3:8) to get a better idea (in retrospect) of this with, “the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil”.
But, God gives no more details on this point - we go through the entire OT and we have all of these promises of a Redeemer - and it is still so sketchy that the scholars of the Law can tell Herod where the Messiah will be born - but, nothing else. For 30 years no one knows Jesus is the Messiah because His Divine Will chose not to reveal Himself until His appointed time. God’s Plan did not change - only our understanding of it did.
Christ fulfilled everything in the Law - He was the only One to have kept the Law perfectly - He also was the fulfillment of the Law - so much so that He said He was giving us a New Commandment (John 13:34) and that is to love one another. He also raised the bar from the 10 Commandments given to Moses to the Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-12)
3
Blessed are the poor in spirit, 4 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
6
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8
Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
12
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
There is no way you can keep these Beatitudes and: curse God, not worship Him, worship idols, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, murder, theft, and lie. Christ was quite clear about this - He really is in charge of everything, and that also means that He is Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:1-5).
The issue, at least as I appreciate it, can be reduced to the following: Our knowledge of God and His Divine Plan for us is not static but dynamic. God is static in the sense that He does not change - but, He reveals Himself in His Own Special Way to ever age.
Look at it this way, after the Pentecost experience there were many converts from the Jewish faith to those who wanted to follow Christ - they called their religion (according to Saul of Tarsus) “The Way”. We now find that there were some who wanted to keep the OT Law and the Commands of Christ as were being preached by the Apostles - the First Ministers of this new religion.
Circumcision was a big issue:
1.) given by God Himself,
2.) a real sign of the covenant,
3.) not an option, but an obligation for all males claiming to be part of this covenant established between God and Abraham.
And here is St Peter in Acts 15 declaring under the Power and Guidance of the Holy Spirit that circumcision is no longer required. Amazing. Did God change? No. Did He unveil more of His Plan to us at this time? Yes. The analogy given by St Paul is appropriate here = when an infant is born he is given milk - but, as he grows he needs real food. Did the parents love for their child change? No. Did this child’s needs develop and require a change? Yes.
I hope this helps.
God bless
H
happilycatholic
Guest
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Great post. I especially love St. Paul’s analogy.Hi, Richard,
I am listening to what you say … and I have a comment on an item that appears to be at the heart of this discussion.
God does not change - He is forever - from all eternity - Perfection. No argument there.
The problem comes in when you extrapolate something that you admit is a reflection as having the same qualities. Do not confuse ‘reflection’ with ‘mirror-image’ (which by the way reverses items from their original position!
Let’s go to the very beginning - Genesis and see what is going on. Gen 3:15 - Adam and Eve are confronted by God for their disobedience and God then confronts the Devil in the form of the sperpent. We have the first promise of the Redeemer and we look to (1John 3:8) to get a better idea (in retrospect) of this with, “the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil”.
But, God gives no more details on this point - we go through the entire OT and we have all of these promises of a Redeemer - and it is still so sketchy that the scholars of the Law can tell Herod where the Messiah will be born - but, nothing else. For 30 years no one knows Jesus is the Messiah because His Divine Will chose not to reveal Himself until His appointed time. God’s Plan did not change - only our understanding of it did.
Christ fulfilled everything in the Law - He was the only One to have kept the Law perfectly - He also was the fulfillment of the Law - so much so that He said He was giving us a New Commandment (John 13:34) and that is to love one another. He also raised the bar from the 10 Commandments given to Moses to the Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-12)
3
**Blessed are the poor in spirit, 4 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. **
**4 Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. **
**5 **
**Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. **
**6 **
**Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. **
**7 **
**Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. **
**8 **
**Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. **
**9 **
**Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. **
**10 **
**Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. **
**11 **
**Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. **
**12 **
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
There is no way you can keep these Beatitudes and: curse God, not worship Him, worship idols, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, murder, theft, and lie. Christ was quite clear about this - He really is in charge of everything, and that also means that He is Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:1-5).
The issue, at least as I appreciate it, can be reduced to the following: Our knowledge of God and His Divine Plan for us is not static but dynamic. God is static in the sense that He does not change - but, He reveals Himself in His Own Special Way to ever age.
Look at it this way, after the Pentecost experience there were many converts from the Jewish faith to those who wanted to follow Christ - they called their religion (according to Saul of Tarsus) “The Way”. We now find that there were some who wanted to keep the OT Law and the Commands of Christ as were being preached by the Apostles - the First Ministers of this new religion.
Circumcision was a big issue:
1.) given by God Himself,
2.) a real sign of the covenant,
3.) not an option, but an obligation for all males claiming to be part of this covenant established between God and Abraham.
And here is St Peter in Acts 15 declaring under the Power and Guidance of the Holy Spirit that circumcision is no longer required. Amazing. Did God change? No. Did He unveil more of His Plan to us at this time? Yes. The analogy given by St Paul is appropriate here = when an infant is born he is given milk - but, as he grows he needs real food. Did the parents love for their child change? No. Did this child’s needs develop and require a change? Yes.
I hope this helps.
God bless
Thank you Tom.
Peace Be With You,
HC
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, HC,
Thanks … now… I wonder what Richard is going to say…
God bless
Thanks … now… I wonder what Richard is going to say…
By the way, does anyone see any significance for the Last Supper taking place on a Thursday?
God bless
R
Rexpi
Guest
If is well documented can you please tell us where does it say in the Bible that God changed His day to Sunday?
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Hello Rexpi:
Welcome to CAF! We’ve covered this very thing to some degree on this thread. You may want to read back through the posts, there may be some things you wish to comment on.
But in short, God did not change His sabbath so you will not find it in Scripture. God does not give and then take back. Rather God gave His people, the Isrealites, rest from their labor and he gave them deliverance from slavery, and he gave them a way to remember their Creator. But God saw that the world, not just the Isrealites, needed something more. The people of the world needed salvation and most of all God wanted His people with Him in Heaven, but they needed to be saved and cleansed from all sin. God then sent His only Son, our Lord and Savior and expounded on the gifts in the sabbath by giving us rest with Him and the possibility Eternal life with Him in Heaven.
Now we have all that is promised in the sabbath and more!
Hope this helps to answer your question.
Blessings,
HC
J
Javl
Guest
Jesus said that “the Sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath”
( Mk2:27 ). Since Jesus gave Peter, and the Apostles, the authority to “bind and loose”,
this authority was passed on to their successors who in turn celebrated Jesus’ resurrection on the day he arose from the dead,which is Sunday. Sunday has been the
day of worship, and celebration, ever since the beginnings of the Church.
FYI: Sabbath does not mean Saturday. It means rest. Therefore it can be on any day.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Rexpi
Go back and check out my post 327.
God bless
Go back and check out my post 327.
We do not have a statement anywhere in the Bible where God voided out animal sacrifice, circumcision (those verses in Acts 15 where Peter is speaking is obviously not God speaking, and God apparently did not revoke ceremonial washings, either. Honestly, for a group that demands a literal basis for belief - yet deny that Christ gave us His Flesh and Blood to eat - and the requirement for us to eat His Flesh for us to have eternal life… and you can find this in John 6 where Christ on eight separate occasions says He is food to be eaten (and no where else does Christ repeat and repeat himself and when the Jews said that He wants them to eat His Flesh - He does not correct them. So, if you want scripture - don’t stop there - look at the words Christ used in Matthew, Mark and Luke at the Last Supper.)
God bless
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
What I said was Malachi 3:6 says the Lord changes not. So that would mean His law which is a reflection of His divine changeless character. Let me explain what I mean by this because it is important and you seem to have missed what I was saying (probably my fault). The ten commandments are a reflection of the character of God, not like a mirror reflects an image, but as the moon reflects the light of the sun. The function of the decaloge is to show us God’s will (His character). This must inevitably lead us to the conclusion that we are sinners. Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Hi, Richard,
The problem comes in when you extrapolate something that you admit is a reflection as having the same qualities. Do not confuse ‘reflection’ with ‘mirror-image’ (which by the way reverses items from their original position!
And because of this we should come to the conclusion that we need a Savior, because God will not abide in the presence of sin. So, Jesus says in Matt. 5:48 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Well, we cannot do this by ourselves. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. What is that transformation and renewing of thew mind? Rom.6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I hope this helps.
Your story of paul feeding with milk I’m assuming is taken from 1Cor.3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Paul here is talking about teaching things that babes in Christ can handle before teaching the weightier doctrines. He is not talking about the law.
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
Do you know that the ten commandments are the only writings of the bible that are not inspired. They are not inspired because God considered them so sacred (a reflection of His divine unchanging character) That He did not entrust them to man to write down. He spoke them with His own mouth and wrote them with His own finger in stone to signify their permanence. Jesus said in Matt 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
You seem to think that the ten commandments or maybe just the fourth and the cerimonial law are all lumped together. Well, this is not the case. As it says in Matt. 5:18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. He is talking here of the decalogue. After all is fulfilled, only the laws concerning marraige will be altered or dropped because there will be no need for them. The rest will stand forever.
The cerimonial law was fulfilled in Christ and were nailed to the cross
Col.2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
There is nothing in the decalogue that is against us, but the cerimonial law was fraught with penalties that were against us. It would do you well to study the sanctuary. If you did you would find that in the sanctuary and it’s ceremonies we have a type of Christ and the cross is were type meets antitype so the cerimonial laws are no longer needed.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
You seem to think that the ten commandments or maybe just the fourth and the cerimonial law are all lumped together. Well, this is not the case. As it says in Matt. 5:18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. He is talking here of the decalogue. After all is fulfilled, only the laws concerning marraige will be altered or dropped because there will be no need for them. The rest will stand forever.
The cerimonial law was fulfilled in Christ and were nailed to the cross
Col.2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
There is nothing in the decalogue that is against us, but the cerimonial law was fraught with penalties that were against us. It would do you well to study the sanctuary. If you did you would find that in the sanctuary and it’s ceremonies we have a type of Christ and the cross is were type meets antitype so the cerimonial laws are no longer needed.
R
Rexpi
Guest
I do agree with you Richard, and I know many people put traditons instead of following God’s will. And yes the Sanctuary is awesome since it teaches what is happening in Heaven! Jesus is very close, closer than we think
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Richard,
I agree with you - as I previously stated: God is unchangeable.
What you are not addressing is the other thing I said: our perception of God is changeable because God (using St. Paul’s analogy) began by giving us milk and then is giving us meat. Do you think Paul was only talking about what he was doing - and it has no application outside of that context? Well, if you do, check this out.
After the Fall of Adam and Eve, God did not start out with the Commandments. Nope! God started out with the Covenant He made with Abraham. After the Covenant, and the Commandments God gave the Law - and then look what happens - we have the Prophets to provide guidance and repremand for sinful ways. And then Christ is given to us - our Brother - to bring us to His Father.
God is gradually making His Non-Changeable Self clearer to our eyes. We are seeing more of God - not a changing God. Your use of Malachi is fine as far as it goes - the snag comes in when you stretch it to cover everything you want to cover.
I was not too clear in how I phrased my last question to you - God gave us (through Abraham) the rite of circumcision. Do SDAs circumcise males entering the religion? If not, why not?
God bless
I agree with you - as I previously stated: God is unchangeable.
What you are not addressing is the other thing I said: our perception of God is changeable because God (using St. Paul’s analogy) began by giving us milk and then is giving us meat. Do you think Paul was only talking about what he was doing - and it has no application outside of that context? Well, if you do, check this out.
After the Fall of Adam and Eve, God did not start out with the Commandments. Nope! God started out with the Covenant He made with Abraham. After the Covenant, and the Commandments God gave the Law - and then look what happens - we have the Prophets to provide guidance and repremand for sinful ways. And then Christ is given to us - our Brother - to bring us to His Father.
God is gradually making His Non-Changeable Self clearer to our eyes. We are seeing more of God - not a changing God. Your use of Malachi is fine as far as it goes - the snag comes in when you stretch it to cover everything you want to cover.
To say that the Commandments are a reflection of God is fine - no problem. But, they are not God. We all have the recognized obligation to worship God. The issue, at least as I appreciate the discussion is that it must always be on the Sabbath because this is what is specifically laid out int he OT and there is no direct reference to putting this aside in the NT. What I am saying is that Christ fulfilled everything - gave Peter the Keys and the authority to change what he chose to change - and guess what - through the workings of the Holy Spirit worship was now placed on the day that Christ rose from the dead: Sunday. Notice, Peter did not declare that theft, abuse, murder, adultery and lying were OK - these still apply and you would be keeping them anyway if you were following the Beatitudes.
I was not too clear in how I phrased my last question to you - God gave us (through Abraham) the rite of circumcision. Do SDAs circumcise males entering the religion? If not, why not?
God bless
H
happilycatholic
Guest
- Status